Your thoughts on the Primaris and lore progression

[Bryan Blaire]

And yet, pretty much every story GW produces about unknown human civilizations are not like that. They're across some gulf or at the edge of the light of the astronomicon.

 

It would be cool if GW did more with that, but I think it's fair to say that the charge of factionalization reducing the wild spaces for commercial reasons is an accurate one.

 

As is the statement that the Great Rift is a rewilding event.

Just because GW's works don't seem to acknowledge their own setting sometimes, that doesn't mean that it isn't written into the canon of the setting itself by its official publication.

 

There are numerous ways that a world could effectively be cut off from the Imperium and lie just 150 light years from the nearest Imperial world, completely cut off from the ability to be traveled to in a stasis chamber ship - if at all. One such way could be the current of the warp having a reversal, such that traveling the current actually pushes the ship backward in time and each time the system has been investigated, it has been further and further before the start of the colony that made it there. This same current could block the view of the Astronomicon, send signals backward in time rendering them unintelligible, etc.

 

GW's authors write the stories they want, and leave the rest for us to fill in.

[chamberlainskeksil]

 

Obviously I’m being imprecise about ‘right next too’. Armageddon is right next to Terra. So is Prospero and Necromunda. Physically, not so much. Relatively, yes.

 

 

Okay.  I just pictured all the events of the great crusade and the scouring and all that going on and a planet near Terra being left unchecked and unexplored.

 

It would take super tech to hide within 100 or so light years of Terra.  Despite there being 2000ish stars within 50 light years of earth, most of them are red dwarfs with no satelites that we know of.  Just dim stars with not much going on around them.  only 130 or so are even the kind of stars that might have planets that might have civilizations.  I bet every one of them was visited during the early days of the Great Crusade.

[Marshal Rohr]

Do we even know how people travel in the IN?

[Bryan Blaire]

I bet every one of them was visited during the early days of the Great Crusade.

Without taking into account the Warp, your bet is probably safe.

 

However, if the Warp made the costs outweigh the possible benefits, then they may have simply stopped after some period of time for some stars, even around Terra.

[chamberlainskeksil]

 

And yet, pretty much every story GW produces about unknown human civilizations are not like that. They're across some gulf or at the edge of the light of the astronomicon.

 

It would be cool if GW did more with that, but I think it's fair to say that the charge of factionalization reducing the wild spaces for commercial reasons is an accurate one.

 

As is the statement that the Great Rift is a rewilding event.

Just because GW's works don't seem to acknowledge their own setting sometimes, that doesn't mean that it isn't written into the canon of the setting itself by its official publication.

 

There are numerous ways that a world could effectively be cut off from the Imperium and lie just 150 light years from the nearest Imperial world, completely cut off from the ability to be traveled to in a stasis chamber ship - if at all. One such way could be the current of the warp having a reversal, such that traveling the current actually pushes the ship backward in time and each time the system has been investigated, it has been further and further before the start of the colony that made it there. This same current could block the view of the Astronomicon, send signals backward in time rendering them unintelligible, etc.

 

GW's authors write the stories they want, and leave the rest for us to fill in.

 

And now the unknown space is front and centre to the setting.  With a giant rift across the galaxy and a separate name for the space on the other side.  Not just an implication from the vagaries of warp travel and communication.  Now its central to the situation of the galaxy.

 

I like that.  I think it's good in terms of increasing what they "leave the rest for us to fill in."

 

Also, I think it may also be irrelevant that a given feature was always present in 40k.  So what?  So they didn't need to change the universe?  That's actually not really related to whether or not current 41k has the feature or not.  The unknown was always there?  Cool.  Too bad it was underused in GW's publications.  I like it and glad it features even more prominently now.  Hopefully it shows up more in published fiction.

[chamberlainskeksil]

Do we even know how people travel in the IN?

When the Astronomicon was off during the 13th Black Crusade, one imperial ship in The Emperor's Legion used a warp "map" made by some chaos cultists to make a jump.  It was talked about as insane and dangerous, but they were able to do it.  

 

Did those with the navigator gene predate the Astronomicon?  I thought they did.  I thought the Emperor just increased the number of them.

[Bryan Blaire]

And now the unknown space is front and centre to the setting.

Meh. Since they didn't really do a lot with it in the actual setting (as in 8th edition rule book, Codexes so far), I wouldn't say that it is front and center to it. It's more of a point of interest right now.

 

I like that. I think it's good in terms of increasing what they "leave the rest for us to fill in."

It's okay that you like it, I find it more of the same, all things considered - it's the Eye of a Terror expanded. As far as "leaving the rest for us to fill in", I feel like their story is actually leaving less for us to fill in. It's clear that they intend to use the setting like a story itself, and they will eventually tell us exactly how the Dark Imperium side of things works, or they will act as if it works just like the Imperium side of the Great Rift. The former constricts our ability for story-telling, while the latter makes the Great Rift something of limited consequence. Neither would be very interesting.

 

Also, I think it may also be irrelevant that a given feature was always present in 40k. So what? So they didn't need to change the universe? That's actually not really related to whether or not current 41k has the feature or not. The unknown was always there? Cool. Too bad it was underused in GW's publications. I like it and glad it features even more prominently now. Hopefully it shows up more in published fiction.

If it was irrelevant and underused before, why think that it will be more important now? GW is the one that wrote about the unknown amongst the stars before, just like they have now written about the Great Rift. If the unknown was underutilized before, what makes this different? That they wrote it? The argument pretty much spins in a circle. Your argument really boils down to "I like it, therefore it is more interesting and I think they'll do something that interests me with it", nothing that is evidence supported.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's interesting in that it is a specific thing, but it I see very little difference between what was there before and what is there now. The Great Rift is the Eye writ large, but no more interesting for that. It's "cut off" a portion of the Imperium, but there has been minimal exploration of that fact, just like there's been minimal exploration of the "unknown" previously, but there's more "promise" that they will do he future which directly removes the players' agency for stories in that respect (unless you argue that they could simply ignore the canon in fan-fiction, which was obviously the same before as well).

 

The more things change, the more they stay the same, just with a different landscape.

[Marshal Rohr]

I know chartist captains make micro warp jumps along relatively safe routes that rarely experience much in the way of turbulence that’s out of the ordinary but it makes them vulnerable to interception. I thought about using that to explain how my dudes travel in the IN.

[chamberlainskeksil]

 

If it was irrelevant and underused before, why think that it will be more important now? GW is the one that wrote about the unknown amongst the stars before, just like they have now written about the Great Rift. If the unknown was underutilized before, what makes this different? That they wrote it? The argument pretty much spins in a circle. Your argument really boils down to "I like it, therefore it is more interesting and I think they'll do something that interests me with it", nothing that is evidence supported.

Well, because of what they've done with Age of Sigmar.  Just as AoS showed what they were planning with the rules and setting of 40k, I'm hopefully it is also a predictor of what they do with some of the fiction.  AoS fiction definitely has a different approach and feel to it than WHFB fiction did (which was closer to 40k in a lot of ways).  AoS fiction has a lot more elements similar to 1930s speculative fantasy and the "weird tales" genre bolted onto heroic military fiction.  And as the time line progressed there, things like City of Secrets and the stuff with Nagash and the stolen souls of Azyr are hopefully indicative of a general editorial direction for Black Library.  These elements were also present in the Great Crusade phase of most of the Horus Heresy novels that cover that part of the story.

 

I really need to read the rest of Devestation of Baal and see what's actually there in terms of the Imperium Nihilis.  Perhaps I'll be disappointed.  It's likely that book is simply about the rescuing of the Blood Angels & successors by Guilliman and leaves the darkness of the area on the other side of the rift largely unaddressed.  It's entirely possibly that the source of the "weird tales" influence on AoS is a result of Josh Reynolds writing so many of the novels for it rather than it being a GW initiated direction.  I'm not so sure though as it's also present in the 8th edition and AoS rule and codex/battletome books.  Codex: Chaos Daemons, for example, turns up the weird tales style blurbs to eleven.  Which is appropriate given the subject matter.

 

Also, the greatest supporting evidence is that current 40k has all the same quantity of unknown present in previous editions plus a huge amount of the known now rendered also unknown by the opening of the great rift.  I guess you can argue that the rewilding of 40k was a bad or unnecessary thing, but neither would have any impact on whether or not it has occured.  And just some speculation in this thread about "grey" systems has caused me to contact my gaming buddies about starting a campaign.  So you have an example right before your eyes of it inspiring actually hobbying projects.

[Commander Dawnstar]

Do we even know how people travel in the IN?

 

Shroud of Night gave us an example of a number of systems that essentially had their own localised Astronomicon-esque beacon. It's not impossible that there are other similar phenomenon out there creating small regions of relatively safe travel.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

Do we even know how people travel in the IN?

Shroud of Night gave us an example of a number of systems that essentially had their own localised Astronomicon-esque beacon. It's not impossible that there are other similar phenomenon out there creating small regions of relatively safe travel.

I had wondered about a lighthouse system using astropathic relays. I might expand on that for my stuff then.

[m0nolith]

 

Do we even know how people travel in the IN?

 

Shroud of Night gave us an example of a number of systems that essentially had their own localised Astronomicon-esque beacon. It's not impossible that there are other similar phenomenon out there creating small regions of relatively safe travel.

 

So, like the Pharos?

All of this is starting to look more and more like they looked at the success the Horus Heresy was, and decided to copy it hoping for the same results.

[Bryan Blaire]

Also, the greatest supporting evidence is that current 40k has all the same quantity of unknown present in previous editions plus a huge amount of the known now rendered also unknown by the opening of the great rift. I guess you can argue that the rewilding of 40k was a bad or unnecessary thing, but neither would have any impact on whether or not it has occured. And just some speculation in this thread about "grey" systems has caused me to contact my gaming buddies about starting a campaign. So you have an example right before your eyes of it inspiring actually hobbying projects.

I think that what is being pointed out is that people rely on GW's meta-story in a big way for the basis of their games, rather than trying to have their own inspiration from what is written about the setting itself. The meta-story for 8th has changed, but that doesn't make it more interesting or inspirational.

 

The campaign you are talking about, Skeksil, is literally the exact same thing you could have been inspired to do at any time in the last 25 years. It's not anything new, so truthfully it's less inspiring than it really should be.

 

I also look at the "known becoming unknown" as less something that is actually occurring than you seem to, because it wasn't actually fleshed out well, and doesn't really seem to be that much of an "unknown". People are still getting around, systems haven't been ripped apart by strife, etc. Perhaps if they had elaborated on it a little more, while retaining some mystery, it could have been much more interesting. As it is, it's not much of a bogeyman if the bogeyman isn't scary to you.

 

Maybe it will be more interesting at some point, but I know the futility of hope for improvements of this setting itself. As it is, the Citrix Maledictum and Imperium Nihilus are simply backdrops to more interesting stories, similar to how the unknown void and the Warp already were before their inception. And honestly, how dark can it really be if it already has its own declared by the Emperor's regent himself, who is already supposed to be getting on with getting on picking up the pieces of the IN.

 

In the end, my interest in the new lore is "What stories have been opened up now that weren't opened up before to play?" Other than specific details, there are few new possibilities (Tau where they weren't before, a legion of Fallen, possibilities of more Wulfen, etc.), but a lot of the things that can be done in the Imperium Nihilus are "more of the same" just with different details, but the stories themselves won't actually play out differently (something that ADB has touched on before is how the 8th Edition meta-story both changes things, but also doesn't), so I think just really isn't that interesting.

 

=------------------------------=

Marshal Rohr, the idea of Tau making it far through the Warp whole has already come to pass:

Bloody Retribution

“Hurled across the void by an empyric convulsion, a T’au colonisation fleet begins claiming worlds within the Red Scar. Their efforts are brought to a sudden, violent halt by strike forces of Blood Angels, Flesh Tearers and the Angels Sanguine. The planets of D’sandri and Gendal’s Reach are swiftly reclaimed, and the war spills into the Sevensuns System."

(Blood Angels Codex 8th Edition, pg. 23)

[Lexington]

Furthermore, a hyper advanced human civlization in a system right near terra could only exist if they were magically hiding to the point of irrelevancy.  If a planet is 100 light years away and they use any sort of vox or other type signals, the imperium is going to know about them in 100 years (or less) and if it's close to Terra, that's definitely going to be an area that is monitored, well traveled, explored, etc.,.

Only if the Imperium is actively listening.

 

There's a lot of assumptions made about the Imperium's homogeneity, resources and technology distribution, here. There's quite a lot of the Imperium that might receive those signals and never know what to do with them. There are some that know what to do with them, but don't know who to contact. Lots of them may know exactly who to contact, but the information is lost somewhere in the fifty years or so between any real space traffic to or from the world in question. Even beyond that filter, the Imperium's bureaucracy is slow and inefficient - there's every chance that information gets lost along the way.

[Schlitzaf]

Bryan, I see this argument come up a lot like you, that people rely too much on GW for X. To the point where you come off exceptionally arrogant. In the past you have made a story using the unknown regions like the Ghoul Stars, nothing was stopping you, it just wasn’t something GW focused on. Before last summer the amount of DIY Regiments/chapters/etc that fought on Konor or the various other worlds against a Nurgle Incursion led by a Daemon Prince. You could count on one maybe two hands. Does someone using the Konor campaign somehow make them less?

 

I personally never had set my Crusade in the Calaxis sector had my local GW not ran a map based campaign using the Dark Heresy map as basis when I was younger. Am I following the predescribed meta-narrative? My own force I had pre-8th flavorfully as having been decimated and reduced less than half a company of a regular Astartes Force (the force had started with 200-300 Battle Brothers) and the Calaxis Sector is in the Dark Imperium. So I had my crusade recieving Primaris Reinforcements that we’re sent out from when Gulliman arrived at Baal. Did I need GW to provide an expectation? Am I sheeple for using that? Does it make my force less unique than someone else Black Templar Crusade?

 

Or am I not following the meta-narrative because I reject current Emperor’s Champion (and follow 4th Edition lore instead) by having my Crusade have one armed with the best weapons from the crusade armory instead of having the black sword and armor of faith be an explicit set of named artifacts. Like it comes off exceptionally arrogant “well you didn’t need it, you always could”. How many stories do you have set with no relavance to current 40k Narrative? When they we’re initially written. Not just that how many do you have that use completely DIY forces? Maybe something like a Dark Angel Successor Emerald Lighting fighting the Cythor Fiends of the Unknown Region in a story without any discernible dating believing they found a Fallen hiding among the Xenos world. Let’s assume that fallen incident never happens or I never read High Marshall Helbrect backstory in 4th Edition whom inspired me to choose that specific race of Xenos of which there is otherwise functionally almost no lore on.

 

If you have done the above I stand corrected, (be utterly hilerious), but rarely do folks do things on blank canvas. The canvas comes painted already. 40k is an example of that, Marbo being Rambo, the Black Templars share heraldry with Religious orders of Knights like the Teutonic. Tyranids Design being inspired by works like Alien, and Necrons being NotCthuhlu. The four Chaos Gods even being rough analogies to the horsemen (Khorne is War, Nurgle is Pestilence, Slaanash is Famine, and Tzeentch is Death). Like why you can always do X, the lore bringing this to forefront helps. If introduction of Dark Imperium only enables that even more, what is that not a good thing, it allows folks to expand horizons? Just because they always could have?

[Bryan Blaire]

In the past you have made a story using the unknown regions like the Ghoul Stars, nothing was stopping you, it just wasn’t something GW focused on.

Yes, I did, that was actually where the story of the Quelling of Hybreon IV took place, a campaign that a couple of friends and I played years ago that I'm still slowly writing out into an actual novel sized work - the system was actually where the Iron Crusaders (a force that a friend originally made up back in 3rd or 4th Edition that wasn't really that original a name and eventually GW had a Chapter named the same in the 5th Edition Codex as going out to the Ghoul Stars) had left a garrison, which had been overrun, was. So I co-opt'd the idea that it was in the way out to the Ghoul Stars, because it seems an interesting mystery. That last part isn't original to me, but I'm not changing it at this point.

 

Does someone using the Konor campaign somehow make them less?

I mean it makes the story less original, yes, but a lot is going to depend on how much of GW's writing you use to base things out with. If it's tangential to the story, then chances are it is pretty original. If you are just rewriting the points of the campaign...

 

I personally never had set my Crusade in the Calaxis sector had my local GW not ran a map based campaign using the Dark Heresy map as basis when I was younger. Am I following the predescribed meta-narrative? My own force I had pre-8th flavorfully as having been decimated and reduced less than half a company of a regular Astartes Force (the force had started with 200-300 Battle Brothers) and the Calaxis Sector is in the Dark Imperium. So I had my crusade recieving Primaris Reinforcements that we’re sent out from when Gulliman arrived at Baal. Did I need GW to provide an expectation? Am I sheeple for using that? Does it make my force less unique than someone else Black Templar Crusade?

Actually sounds like your personal force is interesting, but the background setting isn't original or inspired as someone that created it out of an unexplored area of the setting. That only really matters if someone really feels it needs to to them. Clearly that fleshed out part of the setting was interesting to you (what's always been interesting to me about the Black Heresy stuff is how much gets used by GW employees, but it wasn't written by them directly) and inspired you to write further.

 

Does that make you sheeple? I dunno man, are you? I wasn't the one that asked that question, but you seem to take offense as if I did.

 

Or am I not following the meta-narrative because I reject current Emperor’s Champion (and follow 4th Edition lore instead) by having my Crusade have one armed with the best weapons from the crusade armory instead of having the black sword and armor of faith be an explicit set of named artifacts. Like it comes off exceptionally arrogant “well you didn’t need it, you always could”. How many stories do you have set with no relavance to current 40k Narrative? When they we’re initially written. Not just that how many do you have that use completely DIY forces? Maybe something like a Dark Angel Successor Emerald Lighting fighting the Cythor Fiends of the Unknown Region in a story without any discernible dating believing they found a Fallen hiding among the Xenos world. Let’s assume that fallen incident never happens or I never read High Marshall Helbrect backstory in 4th Edition whom inspired me to choose that specific race of Xenos of which there is otherwise functionally almost no lore on.

 

If you have done the above I stand corrected, (be utterly hilerious), but rarely do folks do things on blank canvas. The canvas comes painted already. 40k is an example of that, Marbo being Rambo, the Black Templars share heraldry with Religious orders of Knights like the Teutonic. Tyranids Design being inspired by works like Alien, and Necrons being NotCthuhlu. The four Chaos Gods even being rough analogies to the horsemen (Khorne is War, Nurgle is Pestilence, Slaanash is Famine, and Tzeentch is Death). Like why you can always do X, the lore bringing this to forefront helps. If introduction of Dark Imperium only enables that even more, what is that not a good thing, it allows folks to expand horizons? Just because they always could have?

I think you kinda came off the rails here a bit, man, and I think you are trying to attribute things to me that I didn't say.

 

I never said things had to be a completely blank canvas, but the more you generate yourself, the more unique and personally inspired it is. The more you take from other works, the less original it is - it can be more meaningful to people, because it allows a broader audience to relate to it, but that doesn't make it more original.

 

If you'd like to discuss this more with me personally, we'd probably better take that to PM.

 

However, I don't find the changes to the setting more inspirational than the previous setting elements were.

[Schlitzaf]

Blaine can you unblock me gladly be interested in discussing this with PM? And that is super awesome on the fiend note. One of my favorite pieces of unexplored lore. Msg you before and I was told it never sent/received

[totgeboren]

 

Why is the old lore so sacred that any sort of new lore is instantly unappealing to you?

 

 

(I know the thread has diverged a bit, but this comment stuck out to me.)

 

A few have already answered this, and given numerous examples of new lore that they liked, and new lore that they did not like. The common theme of disliked new lore is that it overwrites old lore, and/or that is self-contradictory. It is presented such that if the new lore is true, then the old lore is false. Just the simple catch-phrase of w40k;

 

"Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."

 

Introducing warrior-Jesus in the form of Guilliman, with hordes of über-space marines, marines who are better in every single way than the old designed by the Emperor (someone so technologically proficient that the AdMec accepted him as an avatar of the Machine God). These guys also have new tech that is waaay better than what came before, and the lore surrounding these dudes focus on how they heavily outclass the enemies of mankind time and time again.

 

Something simple here. If Cawl can make marines and other technology that is superior in every way to the works of the Emperor/The-Omnissiah-Incarnate, why is he not regarded as the Omnissiah by most of the AdMec? If Roboute and friends have such an extreme advantage over the enemy that their victory is beyond doubt, there can obviously be peace among the stars. Where is the despair?

 

When the Necrons were properly introduced, they were behind everything. Basically every single thing in the 40k universe could trace its origin back to the machinations of the Deceiver. This sucked, because it made everyone else irrelevant.

5ed (I think it was) UM were presented as the ideal all space marines strived for, even going as far as spelling out that all marines secretly wished they were UM. Previously all marines were presented as being extremely proud of their colours, traditions and Chapter. Suddenly this was not true.

Same era, the GK were as spiritually pure as you can get, yet they had a hierarchy of purity within the chapter, and they also needed to drench themselves in the blood of the (obviously) even more spiritually pure sisters of battle to avoid corruption. If they are more spiritually pure than the SoB, they should not need to shield themselves behind them to resist the influence of Khorne.

 

 

New lore that is liked is presented in addition to the old lore. When Tau arrived, they did not overwrite anything. Many were unhappy with their optimism, but they were also presented as incredibly naive to the greater 40k universe. It was hard not to think "Hehehe, after they harbour some human refugees that contain unsanctioned psychers, they won't be so goody-two-shoes!" GW also toned down the bright side of the Tau later on, giving them a slightly darker edge.

 

There are tons of new stuff that has been added with little issue. All the FW relic/30k vehicles, basically all have the same story. They are rare and thus seldom seen. Ok, that works.

For a long time, SM armies had "Veterans". Then they got Sternguard and Vanguard veterans. Special-issue ammo for the elite of the chapter. Sure, no problem, and the unit was really popular right away, not just for game-play reasons. I can go on and on with new stuff people have liked.

 

Problems arise when new stuff is either dumb (The GK debacle), or it invalidate old lore (Primaris). 

 

As I mentioned earlier, the Primaris could have been introduced as inferior to the old marines. Not on the tabletop, but they could have drastically shorter life spans. They could be much harder to produce. They could even be more prone to mental instability and psychosis (opening up for CSM Primaris if they want to). The exact same models could have been introduced in a way that respected the old lore, and I think that would probably have made more people want to buy them.

[chamberlainskeksil]

The campaign you are talking about, Skeksil, is literally the exact same thing you could have been inspired to do at any time in the last 25 years. 

 

It's also sort of funny when "that was always present in 40k!" is used as an argument.  It's basically making the case that the new version is accomplishing what it needs to in the very act of criticising it.

[Filkarion]

I know there always were "forgotten human star kingdoms" in the galaxy, and they made up for some good stories.

The point of 40k universe at his foundation is "it's so big you can find everything in it". I especially like how Horus Heresy novels started from a planet that was believed by inhabitants to be the original Earth!

But the point is just _focus_ (not existance).

I really enjoyed the old comic Blooquest, as it shown the Eye of Terror, not as some kind of vortex, but as a place full of chaos dominated planets, where some actual people live. And I like the fact that similar chaos influenced planets exist now all around the galaxy.

In a way a find it more plausible now than before, where there were always "sucked in warp" and "isolated by warpstorms" planets and so on.

 

In a way it seems GW made the "heavy chaos influenced but not dominated" Old World explode, only to create a whole lot of "similar" places in 40k

 

In regards of Technology and progress: Gullimann and Kawl are 30k people, so it fits. They are powerful, but are only two.

The Imperium is not changing to a progressist enlightened empire, just accept some new things but look at them with suspect, and _devotional_ fear. In a way it has even more internal tension.

 

Edit: two more things

One thing i like about 40k is that is very archetypal, very simple on a first view (horus => lucifer, Eldar=>Superior aliens, Orks=>Inferior aliens, Necron=>evil robots, Tyranids=>alien aliens) and very familiar for people used to fantasy stuff (Orcs, Elfs, Knights, Wizards, all "in space")

BUT very complex and deep if you dig into it

Primaris are just so. "Cool new kids in the block, saving the universe" is the first view

 

And now something completely different:

The four horseman are (maybe) Pride, War, Famine and Death, in a way Slaanesh, Khorne, Omissis (tzeench does not fit IMHO^^) and Nurgle

[Claws and Effect]

totgeboren summed it up nicely.

 

It's not that the old lore is so sacred.

 

It's that some of the new lore is presented as though the old lore no longer matters.

 

It very much feels like the GW creative team sat around in office and went "This new stuff is really cool. No one will mind if it invalidates the old stuff."

 

Change is a good thing when there is a good reason for it. Change simply for the sake of change is not.

[Fire Golem]

Clearly none of you have embraced the ways of Tzeentch.

[b1soul]

I'm in my 30s and perfectly fine with the Primaris and GS

 

I really welcomed it

[Sete]

I'm in my 30's and I'm not ok with it.

Badly implementation is the main issue here.

But whatever floats your goat people.

I hope that when Primaris are eventually expanded upon, I can accept them with no issue.

[deathspectersgt7]

I'm in my 50's and don't give a Rats  anymore on them.

And what Sete said.