Your thoughts on the Primaris and lore progression

[Wargamer]

Agreed, Huggtand. One of the worst things 40k ever did was change special characters from needing permission to use to being essential to field certain types of army.

[ERJAK]

 

 

Sorry if I seemed snippy in regards to the Boba Fett thing, I just never really saw why everybody made him out to be the most awesome character ever. I do agree with your general point though, that 40k is in danger of becoming way too heavily focussed on the various special characters. It's always been a problem, to a certain degree, but previously it more felt like it was a wide galaxy, we were just being told about the actions of certain characters. It's slowly becoming that nothing is happening without specific characters being involved, and I do really hope that goes away.

This I feel is the biggest problem with the new direction GW has taken and really shrinks the universe to a soap opera between a handful of people. This is also reflected on the tabletop gaming since now every little skirmish has a primarch or chapter master involved.

 

When special characters was forbidden in tournaments and only was brought with mutual consent you saw much more varied HQs and people was more invested to give their own characters unique back stories.

No? Tournament players aren't going to give their characters 'unique back-stories', what a waste of time when you swap characters out basically daily depending on what build you're going for.

 

And why is 'unique back-stories' even a positive thing? Cause i gotta tell ya, I can only handle so many neckbeards regaling the 'super epic, way better than the new star wars adventures of Lord-Commander-General-Commandant-Admiral Snuggletits and his Emperor's Snowflakes chapter that are like Ultramarines but, like, 1000000% tougherer and can totally beat up your dad.' Before I beat someone unconcious with my tape measure.

[Marshal Rohr]

That’s why places like the BnC exist. To polish up back stories.

[Huggtand]

No? Tournament players aren't going to give their characters 'unique back-stories', what a waste of time when you swap characters out basically daily depending on what build you're going for.

And why is 'unique back-stories' even a positive thing? Cause i gotta tell ya, I can only handle so many neckbeards regaling the 'super epic, way better than the new star wars adventures of Lord-Commander-General-Commandant-Admiral Snuggletits and his Emperor's Snowflakes chapter that are like Ultramarines but, like, 1000000% tougherer and can totally beat up your dad.' Before I beat someone unconcious with my tape measure.

 

 

Maybe I din´t express my self good enough. What I wrote was more in a general hobby setting where the declining focus of the setting to just some key characters is mirrored on the tabletop with less and less variation with for example HQ choices. In narrative play it is often a better experience if people have backstories to their forces but in a tournament it is not as relevant  

 

How fun is it to always meet RG, Mortarion, Pask etc. Maybe I´m just old but I think it was more fun to play against a more varied playing field. 

[Fire Golem]

People who care about making fluff for their armies and their own characters and stuff will do it even if special characters are a thing.

[Shockmaster]

Casual setting is your friend if you miss more people using their own custom named characters, I am struggling to think of anyone at my club who has uses a SC in months, not because we are anti SC's we just have other models we want to use more. 

[DuskRaider]

 

No? Tournament players aren't going to give their characters 'unique back-stories', what a waste of time when you swap characters out basically daily depending on what build you're going for.

And why is 'unique back-stories' even a positive thing? Cause i gotta tell ya, I can only handle so many neckbeards regaling the 'super epic, way better than the new star wars adventures of Lord-Commander-General-Commandant-Admiral Snuggletits and his Emperor's Snowflakes chapter that are like Ultramarines but, like, 1000000% tougherer and can totally beat up your dad.' Before I beat someone unconcious with my tape measure.

 

 

Maybe I din´t express my self good enough. What I wrote was more in a general hobby setting where the declining focus of the setting to just some key characters is mirrored on the tabletop with less and less variation with for example HQ choices. In narrative play it is often a better experience if people have backstories to their forces but in a tournament it is not as relevant 

 

How fun is it to always meet RG, Mortarion, Pask etc. Maybe I´m just old but I think it was more fun to play against a more varied playing field. 

 

 

More often than not, tournament players don't care about the lore or anything really other than fielding the beardiest list they can think of. They're a poor indicator of the hobby at large and I definitely wouldn't use them to represent the game or in this discussion in the least. I understand what you're saying, though. Ignore the other guy too, he seems to have a bug permanently up his backside with his bad attitude.

[Guest]

 

 

 

Sorry if I seemed snippy in regards to the Boba Fett thing, I just never really saw why everybody made him out to be the most awesome character ever. I do agree with your general point though, that 40k is in danger of becoming way too heavily focussed on the various special characters. It's always been a problem, to a certain degree, but previously it more felt like it was a wide galaxy, we were just being told about the actions of certain characters. It's slowly becoming that nothing is happening without specific characters being involved, and I do really hope that goes away.

This I feel is the biggest problem with the new direction GW has taken and really shrinks the universe to a soap opera between a handful of people. This is also reflected on the tabletop gaming since now every little skirmish has a primarch or chapter master involved.

When special characters was forbidden in tournaments and only was brought with mutual consent you saw much more varied HQs and people was more invested to give their own characters unique back stories.

No? Tournament players aren't going to give their characters 'unique back-stories', what a waste of time when you swap characters out basically daily depending on what build you're going for.

And why is 'unique back-stories' even a positive thing? Cause i gotta tell ya, I can only handle so many neckbeards regaling the 'super epic, way better than the new star wars adventures of Lord-Commander-General-Commandant-Admiral Snuggletits and his Emperor's Snowflakes chapter that are like Ultramarines but, like, 1000000% tougherer and can totally beat up your dad.' Before I beat someone unconcious with my tape measure.

Man aren't you a bucket of joy. Many people like to have character flaws and blind spots. In fact half this thread has been "X character has no flaws and seems to just be just perfect in every way."

 

I want to say a majority of players at least have their own character or a character in game they put themselves into that characters shoes. Hell even some of the primarchs flaws people point out and say 'he's still my favorite even with his flaws, it makes him feel like...."

[Ishagu]

May I interject here.

 

I play at tournaments at a high level and perform pretty well. I care a huge amount about the lore behind units and the way they look, as well as how an army should be represented on the tabletop.

 

Granted it means I probably won't finish at the number one spot as someone might abuse units without a thought to the lore, but tournament players are not all the same.

 

The people who don't care about the lore and simply cheese strong models, lots of them ultimately suffer as chasing the best combos will create short term effective lists. Imagine you were someone who bought dozens of scat bikes, or 15 Rhinos etc etc

 

By building armies in keeping with the lore, running troops, etc I've been able to maintain strong lists throughout all editions without getting any of them invalidated or finding they no longer perform whatsoever.

[Spinsanity]

I've tried to steer clear of this thread, assuming it would have degenerated into bickering long ago by now. So please excuse me if I'm unaware of everything that has been said in here.

 

I'd just like to say I hate the thread title. By definition, progress implies improvement, and I can't help but feel that this specific title is biases in regards to the discussion at hands.

 

The Primaris marines represent a change, an evolution, sure.

 

But progress? Not to everyone. And by saying that the new lore is better than the old, I feel this title is somewhat of an insult to those who disagree.

[Bryan Blaire]

Like I said, I havent read all of the new books,but considering the Indomnitus Crusade lasted a century, and Fabius Bile (someone who could clone primarchs) hasn't made them yet and the fact that over the period of the Crusade and some time after we dont have any reports/lore/books/etc yet (emphasis on YET) seems to make them more resistant to the influence of chaos.

 

A lot of lore/theories have pointed to the fact that maybe space marines weren't a finished product, and were probably forced out to production early after the chaos gods :cuss with the primarchs, and thus forced the emperor to start the crusades early to try and reclaim the primarchs.

In counter to your argument though, the Space Marines seem to have resisted falling to chaos for two and a half centuries or so during the Great Crusade, and at the time, they didn’t really have anyone actively trying to make sure they didn’t, and they may have only been “partially finished”. It wasn’t until very close to the Heresy that Marines actually started to become tainted by Chaos, and a lot of those were active Chaos introductions to the Marines directly.

 

That the time frame for the current time skip is less than half that 250 years or so of the Great Crusade, IF the Primaris had already actively become tainted by Chaos, with the fact that they have actively been shown to be prevented from falling to the rain when they get close, then it would only stand to reason that they are actually more prone to falling to Chaos than standard Astartes. The only way we will actually know for sure is either it being told to us directly or being shown that they survive the next 150 or so years without falling.

 

As far as theories, they can be a lot of fun to discuss and try and support, but they are meaningless in the face of author fiat.

 

Cawl did have 10k years to work on space marine geneseed, and the cursed founding looks like it was a test run of Primaris (with only a few successful chapters out of the bunch). Not to mention the 9th mark is missing in the armor series as well as the fact that we have have only 1 chapter noted in the 23rd (m38) and 26th (m41) founding. Considering just how terrible things have gone for the imperium in the last few centuries/millenia, you would think that there would be more founding chapters before the ultima founding, yet there is a severe lack of chapters being created at one of the darkest times of the imperium.

Something looking like a test run and a missing armor mark are not evidence of anything. Speculation doesn’t lend any additional weighted support to speculation. Factual support lends weight to speculation.

 

You know who else was designed by the emperor? Grey Knights and Adeptus Custodes, and we know for a fact that the only reason GK cant fall is because of their psyker powers being able to power the aegis (something so far not replicated anywhere else in the lore), and the Adeptus Custodes have sat in the throne room for 10k years with no lore. So now that they have a codex, and we know black library is going to be pushing lore for them, how long do you think it will take for them to fall to chaos? Sisters of Battle fall to chaos, Space marines fall to chaos, Inquisitors fall to chaos. Primaris haven't YET fallen to chaos, but lets be honest its just a matter of time. And what protection does the Custodes have from the powers of the warp? They dont have the aegis, and dont have psykers (that we know of yet), so how long until they fall too now that they have finally left terra?

So you agree that there’s no support for the speculation that Primaris are any more inherently resistant to Chaos than standard Marines? Your questions don’t lend any weight or support to your point...

 

I'd just like to say I hate the thread title. By definition, progress implies improvement, and I can't help but feel that this specific title is biases in regards to the discussion at hands.

 

The Primaris marines represent a change, an evolution, sure.

I agree with you connotatively, but denotatively the word “progress” can simply mean to move forward or onward in time or space. You can progress in your car, doesn’t mean either you or the vehicle are getting any better.

 

You used the word “evolution”, and that actually has a similar connotative implication to “progress”, that something is getting better (at the very least, better suited for the environment in which the organism population is currently residing). So the word choice you made somewhat deflates your own argument. The actual definition of “evolution” doesn’t require the use of the connotation, but it is there.

[D3L]

Like it or not...Primaris, Guilliman, the Great Rift, Imperium Nihilus are all here to stay.

Is it now, I'm quite keen on the rumour theory that it's all a twilight sparkle dream in the eyes of a dying Greyfax at the start of the 13th black crusade.

 

Personally looking forward to a revised 3rd ed era or if they go whole hog end times, a third party taking up the mantle

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

 

 

 

 

In counter to your argument though, the Space Marines seem to have resisted falling to chaos for two and a half centuries or so during the Great Crusade, and at the time, they didn’t really have anyone actively trying to make sure they didn’t, and they may have only been “partially finished”. It wasn’t until very close to the Heresy that Marines actually started to become tainted by Chaos, and a lot of those were active Chaos introductions to the Marines directly.

That the time frame for the current time skip is less than half that 250 years or so of the Great Crusade, IF the Primaris had already actively become tainted by Chaos, with the fact that they have actively been shown to be prevented from falling to the rain when they get close, then it would only stand to reason that they are actually more prone to falling to Chaos than standard Astartes. The only way we will actually know for sure is either it being told to us directly or being shown that they survive the next 150 or so years without falling.

As far as theories, they can be a lot of fun to discuss and try and support, but they are meaningless in the face of author fiat.

 

 

 

 

To counter-counter your first point (hey, no recursing allowed), I would say that the chaos gods waited to corrupt the marines. If they started turning marines at the very first point they could, the influences of chaos would have been found out and stamped out early. Instead they waited until they could corrupt or entice enough legions to actually mean something. We know from the very first horus heresy book that marines could get corrupted and possessed (even though the legions didnt know what was going on), not everyone was on the page of the playbook. But marines were getting possessed/corrupted before the great betrayal. The marines just didnt know what they were doing because big papa E decided it wasn't a good idea to let his legions know that a chaos gods and possession was a thing. Much less letting librarians know about it until it was way too late.

 

That said, I actually hope that Primaris don't go the way of chaos. Chaos literally gets everything the imperium has, and adds spikey bits to it and gets daemon powers. That intellectually stagnant in the same way that the imperium has been stagnant for 10k years. Now if they were to do something like Chaos Daemon/Space Marine fusions through the work of Fabius Bile and flesh manipulation magic of Fulgrim to give chaos 'Primaris like' improved chaos marines (kind of like micro daemon princes), I think thats fine and well within the bounds of the lore (and it makes Fulgrim an integral part of the new lore as primarchs return) and gives chaos something unique instead of completely piggy-backing everything from the corpse emperor they hate so much.

 

 

Cawl did have 10k years to work on space marine geneseed, and the cursed founding looks like it was a test run of Primaris (with only a few successful chapters out of the bunch). Not to mention the 9th mark is missing in the armor series as well as the fact that we have have only 1 chapter noted in the 23rd (m38) and 26th (m41) founding. Considering just how terrible things have gone for the imperium in the last few centuries/millenia, you would think that there would be more founding chapters before the ultima founding, yet there is a severe lack of chapters being created at one of the darkest times of the imperium.

Something looking like a test run and a missing armor mark are not evidence of anything. Speculation doesn’t lend any additional weighted support to speculation. Factual support lends weight to speculation.

 

GW plays fast and loose with the lore as it is, they are pretty adamant about being incredibly vague about anything other than very specific battles (domacles gulf, armageddon, gothic war/12th crusade, siege of ultramar systems 1, 2 and 3, etc). We still havent been given much in the way of details on how Primaris are created other than they get 3 new organs and they have been in stasis for up to 10k years.

 

 

You know who else was designed by the emperor? Grey Knights and Adeptus Custodes, and we know for a fact that the only reason GK cant fall is because of their psyker powers being able to power the aegis (something so far not replicated anywhere else in the lore), and the Adeptus Custodes have sat in the throne room for 10k years with no lore. So now that they have a codex, and we know black library is going to be pushing lore for them, how long do you think it will take for them to fall to chaos? Sisters of Battle fall to chaos, Space marines fall to chaos, Inquisitors fall to chaos. Primaris haven't YET fallen to chaos, but lets be honest its just a matter of time. And what protection does the Custodes have from the powers of the warp? They dont have the aegis, and dont have psykers (that we know of yet), so how long until they fall too now that they have finally left terra?

So you agree that there’s no support for the speculation that Primaris are any more inherently resistant to Chaos than standard Marines? Your questions don’t lend any weight or support to your point...

 

I only state that there hasn't been lore created on the corruption of Primaris yet. We know Sisters have been corrupted or controlled by chaos a number of times, but the amount they have been corrupted has been few and far between because we havent had much in the way of lore on them since 3rd edition. They are 'better' at resisting chaos only because nobody has cared to write stories about them in nearly 20 years. Same thing when it comes to Custodes, we havent had any lore on them at all since the events of the Horus Heresy. No lore = no tainting of chaos. You cant get corrupted by chaos if you dont get any lore written about you. The only faction in the ENTIRE galaxy that is immune to chaos corruption are Grey Knights and we have been specifically told that the psychic AEGIS is the reason why. We dont have anything in the lore thats equivalent for any other faction that makes them immune. We do have in the lore though that in roughly 250 years of active service, none of the primaris have fallen to chaos (yet), even with the Cicatrix spewing chaos at rates never before seen in history. You would think that with chaos being much more active and at a higher power level and scale than in previous editions they would have been able to corrupt Primaris already.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

The only faction in the ENTIRE galaxy that is immune to chaos corruption are Grey Knights and we have been specifically told that the psychic AEGIS is the reason why. We dont have anything in the lore thats equivalent for any other faction that makes them immune.

 

Where's that explanation given? Because a couple of BL books make the case it's far more than 'just' magic armour making them safe. If that was all it took, we'd have seen traitor GKs by now. All that would be needed is for them to be captured (which we know is possible) and undressed.

[Ishagu]

Chaos needs Gal Vorbak in 40k, or something similar.

Not Chosen, but marines infused with Chaotic power that have mirror stats and attributes.

[BitsHammer]

 

 

The only faction in the ENTIRE galaxy that is immune to chaos corruption are Grey Knights and we have been specifically told that the psychic AEGIS is the reason why. We dont have anything in the lore thats equivalent for any other faction that makes them immune.

 

Where's that explanation given? Because a couple of BL books make the case it's far more than 'just' magic armour making them safe. If that was all it took, we'd have seen traitor GKs by now. All that would be needed is for them to be captured (which we know is possible) and undressed.

 

Go read the Grey Knights trilogy, a Grey Knight is captured, almost possessed by a Tzeentch daemon, goes crazy on purpose and ends up the champion of a Khorne fighting ring (and gaining a Mark of Khorne brand mark) before his sanity eventually returns.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

 

 

The only faction in the ENTIRE galaxy that is immune to chaos corruption are Grey Knights and we have been specifically told that the psychic AEGIS is the reason why. We dont have anything in the lore thats equivalent for any other faction that makes them immune.

 

Where's that explanation given? Because a couple of BL books make the case it's far more than 'just' magic armour making them safe. If that was all it took, we'd have seen traitor GKs by now. All that would be needed is for them to be captured (which we know is possible) and undressed.

 

Every single GK codex has talked about the AEGIS. Not only do you have to be a psyker, but you have to have special sigils/tattoos/wards imprinted onto your skin and onto your armor and psychic power has to be channeled into those wards/sigils/tattoos. Thats why they are immune to the taint of chaos. I dont have my codex  on hand at the moment or I would tell you the exact page to look at, but even since 3rd edition the codex has stated that the AEGIS is the reason why Grey Knights cant be corrupted. And it has been repeated backed up in books and codex's since their release. Not a single GK has been corrupted by chaos.

 

Now there was 1 instance in the books when a GK had is armor ripped off after being captured and was influenced by khorne while fighting in an arena, but because of the AEGIS the GK wasn't corrupted or possessed. But without his armor he wasn't immune from the influence of chaos, but the AEGIS was still strong enough without the armor to prevent him from being possessed.

[FerociousBeast]

Holy Guacamole, I come back a week later and we're up to 18 pages... I've read through the first 8 pages, so I know I'm missing a lot, my apologies!

 

First, replying to Spinsanity:

 

I'd just like to say I hate the thread title. By definition, progress implies improvement, and I can't help but feel that this specific title is biases in regards to the discussion at hands.

 

It appears that two threads were merged and the title then changed. My original title was, "Primaris Marines killed 40k for me."

 

On to some comments I want to (belatedly) make.

 

I want to emphasize that, while Primaris Marines were the log that broke the camel's back for me, this has been growing for a while. So I'm not ragequitting anything just because of the Primaris change. Over the years, GW has made a number of stylistic, thematic, and, yes, financial/business decisions that have made the setting and the game less interesting to me. Meanwhile, I myself have changed, as human beings are wont to do. So, teetering on the edge, when finally a break in theme and style of this magnitude came around, I was done. I just can't look at Primaris marine miniatures or fluff with any enthusiasm at all, and since I've always been primarily a Space Marine guy, that's pretty much it. 

 

For a few years, I've had an idea of taking the Company Veterans box, some other bits and bobs, and the Azrael miniature, and kitbash them together into an Azrael who's the same scale as the rest of my army but with noticeably the same pose and equipment. But now...? When the new DA codex hit, that old idea popped up in my mind again, but this time I couldn't summon any enthusiasm for it. What's the point? Old marines are on the way out, so why go and put any love and creativity towards something that's obsolete? No enthusiasm. If I can't even be sparked by Azrael and the Dark Angels anymore, it's time to admit it's over.

 

Let me go ahead and list a few things I DON'T dislike...

 

...Advancing the scale of space marines. I've always been envious of Doghouse and his ilk and their True Scale projects. Space Marines have been too small for forever. But, also, GW has been advancing the size of Space Marines for forever as well. I don't buy the arguments of those who say that if GW had simply upscaled the existing Marine line, that people would have been as mad as they are now over Primaris. We are used to GW upscaling marines! They've been doing it for decades!

 

If GW had simply decided to upscale the existing Marines, without introducing the newer, better Primaris, I would have cheered. And maybe even bought a couple kits.

 

...Improving the Space Marine statline. Hardly needs to be mentioned, but this was LOOOOONG overdue. Space Marines have been too weak for at least 3, probably 4 editions now. But "fixing" it with the Primaris line was just so very, very wrong. And 8th edition, with its Indexes, was the PERFECT opportunity to fix the Marine statline!

 

...Advancing the timeline and the story. Believe it or not, I'm actually with those who have been bored with the setting continually getting closer and closer to that arbitrary AD 41,000 mark, but never crossing it. As far as the storyline goes, I have no problem with primarchs returning, I have no problem with advancing the storyline, and I kind of like the Imperium Nihilus idea (though all of this should've been done better!). No, what I have a problem with are the changes in theme and setting and quality. I won't belabor the reasons here, since I feel I addressed that pretty well already in my OP.

 

...Necromunda! I might be done w/ 40k, but the Necromunda reboot will fortunately/unfortunately keep me in GW's orbit for a while longer, I'm sure. (If they could just get the damn FAQ out, already...)

 

8th edition and the Primaris marines mark an irrevocable turning away from what I most loved about 40k. And damn it all, it was 100% unnecessary.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Every single GK codex has talked about the AEGIS. Not only do you have to be a psyker, but you have to have special sigils/tattoos/wards imprinted onto your skin and onto your armor and psychic power has to be channeled into those wards/sigils/tattoos. Thats why they are immune to the taint of chaos. I dont have my codex  on hand at the moment or I would tell you the exact page to look at, but even since 3rd edition the codex has stated that the AEGIS is the reason why Grey Knights cant be corrupted. And it has been repeated backed up in books and codex's since their release. Not a single GK has been corrupted by chaos.

 

Not that I can see. In both the 3rd ed Deamonhunter book, and the 5th ed GK dex (the two I have readily to hand) the Aegis is not stated as the specific and only reason GKs can't be corrupted. The Aegis is 'just' an array of wards built into the armour, which can be used to channel the GK's psychic power. It's the training and mind of the GK that allows their immunity to Chaos, rather than their equipment, that just helps and lets them do their fighting.

 

 

Now there was 1 instance in the books when a GK had is armor ripped off after being captured and was influenced by khorne while fighting in an arena, but because of the AEGIS the GK wasn't corrupted or possessed. But without his armor he wasn't immune from the influence of chaos, but the AEGIS was still strong enough without the armor to prevent him from being possessed.

You mean Hammer of Daemons? Where it's specifically stated to be the presence of the Collar of Khorne Alaric's forced to wear which compromises his defences, not being separated from his armour? He didn't have his Aegis, because that was built into his power armour, which his captors stripped him of.

[BitsHammer]

Don't the Grey Knights also employ Hexagrammatic Wards? I mean the Exorcists chapter uses them to apparent great effect to allow them to fight Daemons.

 

That aside, I feel like the Primaris being possibly more easy to corrupt than the regular Astartes might be our plot threads for future events. Maybe. I mean I still expect them to replace regular Marines eventually, but I'm kind of hoping this ends up biting the Imperium in the backside.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

Holy Guacamole, I come back a week later and we're up to 18 pages... I've read through the first 8 pages, so I know I'm missing a lot, my apologies!

On to some comments I want to (belatedly) make.

 

I want to emphasize that, while Primaris Marines were the log that broke the camel's back for me, this has been growing for a while. So I'm not ragequitting anything just because of the Primaris change. Over the years, GW has made a number of stylistic, thematic, and, yes, financial/business decisions that have made the setting and the game less interesting to me. Meanwhile, I myself have changed, as human beings are wont to do. So, teetering on the edge, when finally a break in theme and style of this magnitude came around, I was done. I just can't look at Primaris marine miniatures or fluff with any enthusiasm at all, and since I've always been primarily a Space Marine guy, that's pretty much it. 

 

For a few years, I've had an idea of taking the Company Veterans box, some other bits and bobs, and the Azrael miniature, and kitbash them together into an Azrael who's the same scale as the rest of my army but with noticeably the same pose and equipment. But now...? When the new DA codex hit, that old idea popped up in my mind again, but this time I couldn't summon any enthusiasm for it. What's the point? Old marines are on the way out, so why go and put any love and creativity towards something that's obsolete? No enthusiasm. If I can't even be sparked by Azrael and the Dark Angels anymore, it's time to admit it's over.

 

 

8th edition and the Primaris marines mark an irrevocable turning away from what I most loved about 40k. And damn it all, it was 100% unnecessary.

we literally already have a thread for this, and its already on its second iteration http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343416-the-power-armoured-troops-thread-take-2-possible-fixes/

We have kind of come to the consensus that changing anything in the stat line to make astartes with the primaris stat line breaks the balance of the entire game. And pushing the stat line of primaris into the custodes stat line makes things even worse. Can you imagine NECRONS with 2 wounds and WWBB? or Orks with 2 wounds and being in mobs of 30? because thats going to break the game. How about Wulfen, which are already pretty damn hard to kill, go up another wound count? Those things would pretty much require fragcannon spam to cause enough wounds to kill them.

 

whether you like it or not, changing astartes and other MEQ unit types is going to utterly break the game. Either we play around with equipment (which seems to be the least game breaking change and most agreeable option) to making tacticals represent marines better, or we change command point spenders. but changing the marine stat line is going to create such a significant change to the game that its going to need a new edition and a fundamental balance change to the game.

[FerociousBeast]

Um... if introducing Primaris didn't break the game, then giving normal marines Primaris stats and costs wouldn't either. You've got quite a few faulty assumptions and leaps in logic there.

[BitsHammer]

Primaris have a points bump, which balances them being tougher. Giving Marines a free buff with no points bump only causes the game to break.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

Um... if introducing Primaris didn't break the game, then giving normal marines Primaris stats and costs wouldn't either. You've got quite a few faulty assumptions and leaps in logic there.

Or you can read the thread linked, where we have been math-hammering and discussing the idea's you keep whining about. I truncated 2 well discussed threads, if you want the nuance then go read it. But giving Astartes the Primaris treatment means that Orks, Necrons and Tyranids are going to have to get a buff as well, Eldar are going to be a tossup, Tau are probably going to have to keep most of the guard stats unless they are in suits. Guard would probably need a nerf of some kind, and other power armor factions (like GK and Custodes and Sororitas) are going to need buffs to keep them ahead of Astartes. That means that the ENTIRE game is going to have to be rebalanced and changed to appease you.

 

The other line of thinking is changing what loadouts you can give marines (like assault bolters to give them 2 shots like Primaris assault bolt rifles get), give them chainswords to give them the +1 attack, and/or changes to how the Command Point system works with tacticals to make them actually useful. This would require less restructuring of the entire game and allows for better use of whats already currently in the game without utterly breaking the balance. But considering your hard line in the sand of making astartes into primaris, not even this is going to make you happy.

 

What you want is movie marines on the tabletop, and thats not going to be fun for anyone who has to play against that.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

Um... if introducing Primaris didn't break the game, then giving normal marines Primaris stats and costs wouldn't either. You've got quite a few faulty assumptions and leaps in logic there.

Or you can read the thread linked, where we have been math-hammering and discussing the idea's you keep whining about. I truncated 2 well discussed threads, if you want the nuance then go read it. But giving Astartes the Primaris treatment means that Orks, Necrons and Tyranids are going to have to get a buff as well, Eldar are going to be a tossup, Tau are probably going to have to keep most of the guard stats unless they are in suits. Guard would probably need a nerf of some kind, and other power armor factions (like GK and Custodes and Sororitas) are going to need buffs to keep them ahead of Astartes. That means that the ENTIRE game is going to have to be rebalanced and changed to appease you.

 

The other line of thinking is changing what loadouts you can give marines (like assault bolters to give them 2 shots like Primaris assault bolt rifles get), give them chainswords to give them the +1 attack, and/or changes to how the Command Point system works with tacticals to make them actually useful. This would require less restructuring of the entire game and allows for better use of whats already currently in the game without utterly breaking the balance. But considering your hard line in the sand of making astartes into primaris, not even this is going to make you happy.

 

What you want is movie marines on the tabletop, and thats not going to be fun for anyone who has to play against that.

 

 

If you think he is upset because hes not getting movie marines you've missed his point entirely. Its not about the game. The game is largely irrelevant to Primaris lore.