Your thoughts on the Primaris and lore progression

[Schlitzaf]

Also let’s just mention, if you gave all Marines Primaris Stats, you have to bump +1 wound on all Marines. GW has delibaretely kept number of high wound per model count armies. The amount of units that have 3W and 2+, is really low and basically character point (Destroyers, Paladins and Custodes all model pointed as mid tier Marine characters). If every Terminator unit got that treatment? Suddenly Custodes will have 4 (5 on Bike) so and so forth. And basically become utterly immune to small arms fire. That wouldn’t be fun for anyone’s for but the Marine unless he is fighting a Marine then be infuriating him too.

 

As I said elsewhere, lore aside (which I like because what I believs is GW meta commentary), I love Primaris because I finally got something new I wanted to add to my army. Specifically Intercessors. If Intercessors were just upscaled Marines? I would have ignored them like I ignored the previous army mark releases.

[Bryan Blaire]

Saxxon, I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree - you are viewing a lack of evidence as one thing, while I’m viewing it as invalidating the same.

 

As far as the stat line discussion, I disagree that making all Marines have the Primaris stat line and forgoing the concept of Primaris completely somehow inherently destroys the game or forces others to lose enjoyment.

 

We’ve actually had an edition of the game where Terminators were practically immune to small arms fire (took something like 90-120 shots with an auto/lasgun to kill one) - you don’t have to have more Wounds to be harder to kill. You generally do have to have more than a single die’s worth of granularity though, and that means you have to redevelop the whole game engine.

 

What less Marines for an army does is kill GW’s sales, which is why it is unlikely to happen. Less Marines needed to play likely equates to 50% or more loss in sales for GW.

[Ishagu]

I don't think normal marines should get a stat boost like Primaris at all.

 

Lots of people spent lots of money on their Primaris armies for the reason of them being different in looks and rules.

[Bryan Blaire]

I don't think normal marines should get a stat boost like Primaris at all.

 

Lots of people spent lots of money on their Primaris armies for the reason of them being different in looks and rules.

:facepalm:

 

Way to miss a point.

[Marshal Rohr]

I don't think normal marines should get a stat boost like Primaris at all.

 

Lots of people spent lots of money on their Primaris armies for the reason of them being different in looks and rules.

 

Lots of people spent lots of money on Space Marine armies not expecting them to be out of scale... Thats the worst argument to be made. I bet if you gave people a trade in option like with iPhones you'd see a lot of oldmarines handed over for Primaris, a lot of Empire armies turned in for Stormcasts. 

[Ishagu]

So what? I own more space marines than most people.

 

I don't expect every unit to be the top of the game forever. Look at Centurions.

[Marshal Rohr]

So what? I own more space marines than most people.

 

I don't expect every unit to be the top of the game forever. Look at Centurions.

 

Your lack of self-awareness is staggering

[DuskRaider]

 

 

So what? I own more space marines than most people.

 

I don't expect every unit to be the top of the game forever. Look at Centurions.

Your lack of self-awareness is staggering

At times I think it's deliberate.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

 

 

The only faction in the ENTIRE galaxy that is immune to chaos corruption are Grey Knights and we have been specifically told that the psychic AEGIS is the reason why. We dont have anything in the lore thats equivalent for any other faction that makes them immune.

 

Where's that explanation given? Because a couple of BL books make the case it's far more than 'just' magic armour making them safe. If that was all it took, we'd have seen traitor GKs by now. All that would be needed is for them to be captured (which we know is possible) and undressed.

 

Every single GK codex has talked about the AEGIS. Not only do you have to be a psyker, but you have to have special sigils/tattoos/wards imprinted onto your skin and onto your armor and psychic power has to be channeled into those wards/sigils/tattoos. Thats why they are immune to the taint of chaos. I dont have my codex  on hand at the moment or I would tell you the exact page to look at, but even since 3rd edition the codex has stated that the AEGIS is the reason why Grey Knights cant be corrupted. And it has been repeated backed up in books and codex's since their release. Not a single GK has been corrupted by chaos.

 

Now there was 1 instance in the books when a GK had is armor ripped off after being captured and was influenced by khorne while fighting in an arena, but because of the AEGIS the GK wasn't corrupted or possessed. But without his armor he wasn't immune from the influence of chaos, but the AEGIS was still strong enough without the armor to prevent him from being possessed.

 

 

Actually, it hasn't. It's stated that it's a form of protection, but it's never stated that it's the reason for their incorruptibility. In fact, we've got a novel, the Emperors Gift, which is a first-person story from the view of a Grey Knight, in which the character states that it's a constant source of philosophical discussion in the Chapter as to the source of their purity. It's true that none have been corrupted, but it's never been explicitly stated as to why that is.

[Marshal Rohr]

Maybe... none have ever been corrupted for no special reason at all. They just don’t betray their oaths.

[Karack Blackstone]

As one that is posting in the Power Armor Infantry adjustment thread, and the one that started the first in regards to 8th Ed., I just wanted to stop by and say...

 

Squirrel!

 

Sorry, silliness aside, the entire point of the two threads is that, the only really option to get Tactical, Grey Hunter, Crusader, and Chaos Space Marine squads to function anything close to their best potential, the number, type, and options as to what Heavy, Special, or, how the choices can be combined goes, is in fact, the best short term solution, to the game, currently.

 

All that typed, yes, in fact, as I have found Jarl's post in the second thread of interest, intellectually, long term, getting normal Marines of all varieties turned into the same stat line as Primaris, maybe with a final cost of 15 to 18, at most, points per model, is the only truly effective long term solution. The really big problem is, as mentioned, if this change is to be considered, at the very least, the reevaluation of all Codex basic units must occur, and, at least a points reduction considered, if not the chance to add more options.

 

As has been mentioned, Necrons with 2 Wounds, a +1 to another stat, maybe Toughness, and the We Will Be Back special rule is where this truly starts to become the long term question such a major game change would in fact be.

 

There's no easy fix, that's why GW is likely struggling with the idea of what to do; the problem is, if Marines were to all get turned into the Primaris statline minimum, Wulfen are what, 1 Wound, maybe 2? So, any non-TDA, non-HQ Marine is +1 Wound. Well, now what? The problem is, if all HQ's and TDA wearers gain +1 or +2 total Wounds, the points need to be recalculated, and, well, this discussion continues to go circular.

 

That's the real problem: there's no easy fix. There is actually a case to be made that there shouldn't be an easy fix. And, that's actually why this topic is so contentious.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

As one that is posting in the Power Armor Infantry adjustment thread, and the one that started the first in regards to 8th Ed., I just wanted to stop by and say...

 

Squirrel!

 

Sorry, silliness aside, the entire point of the two threads is that, the only really option to get Tactical, Grey Hunter, Crusader, and Chaos Space Marine squads to function anything close to their best potential, the number, type, and options as to what Heavy, Special, or, how the choices can be combined goes, is in fact, the best short term solution, to the game, currently.

 

All that typed, yes, in fact, as I have found Jarl's post in the second thread of interest, intellectually, long term, getting normal Marines of all varieties turned into the same stat line as Primaris, maybe with a final cost of 15 to 18, at most, points per model, is the only truly effective long term solution. The really big problem is, as mentioned, if this change is to be considered, at the very least, the reevaluation of all Codex basic units must occur, and, at least a points reduction considered, if not the chance to add more options.

 

As has been mentioned, Necrons with 2 Wounds, a +1 to another stat, maybe Toughness, and the We Will Be Back special rule is where this truly starts to become the long term question such a major game change would in fact be.

 

There's no easy fix, that's why GW is likely struggling with the idea of what to do; the problem is, if Marines were to all get turned into the Primaris statline minimum, Wulfen are what, 1 Wound, maybe 2? So, any non-TDA, non-HQ Marine is +1 Wound. Well, now what? The problem is, if all HQ's and TDA wearers gain +1 or +2 total Wounds, the points need to be recalculated, and, well, this discussion continues to go circular.

 

That's the real problem: there's no easy fix. There is actually a case to be made that there shouldn't be an easy fix. And, that's actually why this topic is so contentious.

As I stated before in this thread, there is a fix but it invalidates Astartes and people dont like that especially after what happened to warhammer fantasy. GW is willing to completely invalidate whole armies.

 

Primaris marines give us everything an Astartes marine should be; 2 attacks, 2 wounds base. Superior weapon options (auto bolt rifles with assault 2 as 24", bolt rifles going out to 30" and -1 AP, and stalker bolt rifles going out to 36" with -2 AP) and a grenade launcher that goes out to 30". The stick thats up people's craw is that this is what they want normal astartes to be, and doing that utterly breaks game balance. This thread has pretty much been a mental exercise in trying to get us Primaris tacticals without utterly breaking the balance or making the rest of the Astartes armies as invalidated as Primaris did to Astartes.

 

There are several temporary solutions like you have touched upon, but by trying to make Astartes into Primaris, and Primaris into Custodes, and Custodes into Adornables means that EVERYTHING ELSE needs a buff now. Necrons with 2 wounds, toughness 5 and We Will Be Back, Destroyers getting yet another wound and a higher toughness. If you think Tau battle suit spam is bad, wait until they get more wounds and higher toughness. DO YOU LIKE HORDES?! BECAUSE ORKS SQUADS COMING IN AT 30 MODELS AND 2 WOUNDS EACH IS GOING TO BE WAAAAAAAGHSOME (true hell is trying to eat through 60 wounds per ork squad). If you think Carnifex's, Hive Tyrants, hiveguard and Genestealers were bad, wait until they get even more wounds, attacks and the like.

 

As much as everyone wants to bellyache about how mediocre tactical marines are (and their variants between all the different snowflake chapters) improving any stats on your standard marine means that EVERYONE else gets a buff. Primaris give us true scale, proper marines and our astartes is going to go the way of the DoDo. I have nearly 10k points in space marines, and I am not looking forward to Astartes being removed from the game. But at least we can try and math-hammer a way to figure out how to get more use out of tacticals while we still have them. But any change trying to make Astartes into Primaris means every army you play against is going to get a buff in one way or another. Astartes is the ruler in which we measure everything in this game, for better or worse.

[Beta galactosidase]

Hey, the thread says right in the title that it's about lore.

[shandwen]

People looking back miss just how poorly the lore has been laid out before. Uriel Ventris? Those novels were bad. 14 year old me thought otherwise, but for every solid book that came from BL a half dozen "Dawn of Wars" emerged. We all can see how much better the background could have been (if Corax had been included for instance) but the whole of Dark Imperium is superior to most lore sets that have came before.

You can't compare what is new to the highlight reel of the past.

[Lexington]

People looking back miss just how poorly the lore has been laid out before. Uriel Ventris? Those novels were bad. 14 year old me thought otherwise, but for every solid book that came from BL a half dozen "Dawn of Wars" emerged.

Comparing Black Library and Studio work is bad practice, I'd say. One can argue that BL is much more of a primary driver of 40K's development than it was in its earlier days, but 40K's a game and the setting is defined by what's in the rulebooks and Codexes. When GW wants to re-write the base code of whole factions, like the way they did with Necron and Grey Knights in 5th Edition, it's done through Codexes, not novels.

 

Plus, maybe more importantly, they're different types of fiction. There's an overlap, sure, but they work on different mechanics of both reading and writing.

 

but the whole of Dark Imperium is superior to most lore sets that have came before.

Citation needed. :p

[Ishagu]

Anyone remember that recent Tau campaign book? You wanna talk about bad lore and Mary Sues lol

[shandwen]

 

People looking back miss just how poorly the lore has been laid out before. Uriel Ventris? Those novels were bad. 14 year old me thought otherwise, but for every solid book that came from BL a half dozen "Dawn of Wars" emerged.

Comparing Black Library and Studio work is bad practice, I'd say. One can argue that BL is much more of a primary driver of 40K's development than it was in its earlier days, but 40K's a game and the setting is defined by what's in the rulebooks and Codexes. When GW wants to re-write the base code of whole factions, like the way they did with Necron and Grey Knights in 5th Edition, it's done through Codexes, not novels.

 

Plus, maybe more importantly, they're different types of fiction. There's an overlap, sure, but they work on different mechanics of both reading and writing.

 

but the whole of Dark Imperium is superior to most lore sets that have came before.

Citation needed. :p

BL is Gw. You complain about lore, the lore from the gaming books is minimal. We are in a new phase where we learn from the framework of the rulebook rather than the novels (hasn't happened since what, 2nd ed?). The books fill in the story and fill it out. You can't just ignore books and say that you only care about the gaming books.

[Lord Marshal]

Anyone remember that recent Tau campaign book? You wanna talk about bad lore and Mary Sues lol

 

You mean the one that caused an uproar because loyalist Space Marines actually LOST for once? And even then, GW scrambled to make it a Pyrrhic Victory for the Tau.

[Marshal Rohr]

People looking back miss just how poorly the lore has been laid out before. Uriel Ventris? Those novels were bad. 14 year old me thought otherwise, but for every solid book that came from BL a half dozen "Dawn of Wars" emerged. We all can see how much better the background could have been (if Corax had been included for instance) but the whole of Dark Imperium is superior to most lore sets that have came before.

You can't compare what is new to the highlight reel of the past.

We’re not including black Library in this, and have not from our first arguments. This has always been about the 2nd-3rd-4th Edition Lore from the studio having a more detailed and context based lore tone that 5th Edition onwards has really lacked.

[Bryan Blaire]

BL is Gw. You complain about lore, the lore from the gaming books is minimal. We are in a new phase where we learn from the framework of the rulebook rather than the novels (hasn't happened since what, 2nd ed?). The books fill in the story and fill it out. You can't just ignore books and say that you only care about the gaming books.

Uhhh - yeah, that’s exactly what anyone can do.

 

Some people don’t care what BL puts out to “flesh out” a story, especially when the story they are fleshing out and the Codex have little to nothing to do with each other. There’s not a book for each snippet in a Codex or the main rulebook, so if you are comparing the lore in just those texts, then it is perfectly appropriate to say “we are comparing only the texts in the Codexes and main rulebook”. That way you get an apples to apples comparison and can tell which were harvested correctly, and which have been pulled too early or too late so they are either small, hard and have less taste or they are over-ripe, infested with larvae and their skins are wrinkled.

[chamberlainskeksil]

I think anyone ignoring BL is doing themselves a disservice.  Gathering Storm sucked, but the same events told from the point of view of Terra in The Emperor's Legion was excellent.  Anyone worried about whether or not Primaris marines do anything differently than any other marines should check out the relatively simple novella Crusade.  Dark Imperium's only real issue was the over the top sales focused presentation of the new units.  If an editor would have toned that back a bit, there's lots of other great stuff in that novel like Guilliman's interaction with the representative of the Ecclesiarchy as well as Cawl Inferior (despite me being very down on it earlier in the thread it has its good parts too).

[Commander Dawnstar]

Anyone remember that recent Tau campaign book? You wanna talk about bad lore and Mary Sues lol

 

How about we talk about product-driven narratives?

• Space Marines are caught totally off guard by their first encounter with Tidewall Defences
• We focus on the war being fought by Breacher Teams
• Chapter Master Severax is killed off by a Ghostkeel, again making its first official battlefield deployment (presumably for his lack of a model)
• Stormsurges, once again making their debut, are instrumental in beating back the Knights and such

Also the whole Mary Sue complaint (which I can totally understand, honestly) ... doesn't that kinda stem from a combination of bad writing and the studio deciding to tell a hero-centric story where Shadowsun in book one and Farsight in book two are basically at the centre of everything the Tau achieve?

 

This is exactly the sort of thing we see repeating in the Gathering Storm and now 8th Edition, with big damn heroes and new releases driving the plot.

[Ishagu]

I think anyone ignoring BL is doing themselves a disservice. Gathering Storm sucked, but the same events told from the point of view of Terra in The Emperor's Legion was excellent. Anyone worried about whether or not Primaris marines do anything differently than any other marines should check out the relatively simple novella Crusade. Dark Imperium's only real issue was the over the top sales focused presentation of the new units. If an editor would have toned that back a bit, there's lots of other great stuff in that novel like Guilliman's interaction with the representative of the Ecclesiarchy as well as Cawl Inferior (despite me being very down on it earlier in the thread it has its good parts too).

This is actually a great point. In the novel "Watchers of the Throne" the events of GS unfold, and it's a wonderfully well told book. One too many battles, imo, keep it from being one of the greats.

 

People should read this and then Dark Imperium.

[b1soul]

I don't think a setting and a meta-story are mutually exclusive.

 

I think the optimal setting would incorporate significant, well-paced meta-story advancements

 

Old 40K was extremely static and IMO stale.

 

At the end of the day, Gathering Storm/Dark Imperium will be decided by GW's profits. If it boosts sales, GW will continue the trend.

[chamberlainskeksil]

In GW's latest financial report they credit their huge improvement in sales to their marketing and communicating with customers.

 

I think it's entirely probably that the details of the discussion in this thread don't actually matter at all.  That those who feel the need to pull back because of the changes make up a sufficiently small minority that it's irrelevant to GW's bottom line.  And even if they are correct about the forced ham-handed approach to the introduction of Primaris, it may be irrelevant in the face of GW's success at engaging with their customers on social media, youtube, their community site, trade shows and any other avenue they have begun to embrace since Rountree took over the CEO role.

 

And that does nothing to deal with the possibility that some of the recent upturn in sales is actually from a positive reaction to Primaris marines.  That people actually are buying and enjoying them in higher numbers than previous space marine kits.  That's a distinct possibility.