Marshal Rohr Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 In GW's latest financial report they credit their huge improvement in sales to their marketing and communicating with customers. I think it's entirely probably that the details of the discussion in this thread don't actually matter at all. That those who feel the need to pull back because of the changes make up a sufficiently small minority that it's irrelevant to GW's bottom line. And even if they are correct about the forced ham-handed approach to the introduction of Primaris, it may be irrelevant in the face of GW's success at engaging with their customers on social media, youtube, their community site, trade shows and any other avenue they have begun to embrace since Rountree took over the CEO role. And that does nothing to deal with the possibility that some of the recent upturn in sales is actually from a positive reaction to Primaris marines. That people actually are buying and enjoying them in higher numbers than previous space marine kits. That's a distinct possibility. Most people eat McDonalds, shovel Doritos into their face, and don’t brush their teeth. Alcohol and tobacco are lucrative. Ashley Madison had like a hundred thousand subscribers. Numbers and buying trends aren’t a justification in and of themselves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343383-your-thoughts-on-the-primaris-and-lore-progression/page/20/#findComment-4992398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Please don't compare our venerable hobby to Alcohol and Tabacco. Also, I did pretty well on Ashley Maddison for a while :-P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343383-your-thoughts-on-the-primaris-and-lore-progression/page/20/#findComment-4992402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 People looking back miss just how poorly the lore has been laid out before. Uriel Ventris? Those novels were bad. 14 year old me thought otherwise, but for every solid book that came from BL a half dozen "Dawn of Wars" emerged. We all can see how much better the background could have been (if Corax had been included for instance) but the whole of Dark Imperium is superior to most lore sets that have came before. You can't compare what is new to the highlight reel of the past. The Uriel Ventris books follow the titular character (and have been flat out ignored ignored by multiple Space Marine Codexes) just like the Dawn of War series focuses on the Blood Ravens. And as bad as they were, these weren't stories that defined the status quo of the setting. That's actually a point in their favor. The way the setting used to work, you could have hundreds of truly awful stories but none could affect the setting as a whole. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343383-your-thoughts-on-the-primaris-and-lore-progression/page/20/#findComment-4992403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Please don't compare our venerable hobby to Alcohol and Tabacco. Also, I did pretty well on Ashley Maddison for a while :-P Addiction is addiction, man, no matter the form. :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343383-your-thoughts-on-the-primaris-and-lore-progression/page/20/#findComment-4992413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urriak Urruk Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Also, I did pretty well on Ashley Maddison for a while :-P You mean, until they got hacked on all the profiles of people cheating got leaked? BACK ON TOPIC, I find most of the Primaris lore pretty bad, not because it's particularly lore-breaking, but that it is mostly just lazy. I understand why it is, after all as ADB has said before lore is made to explain models (not the other way around). So I know GW was already going to make true-scale marines, and needed an explanation for how these guys just appeared. But most of the explanation is just kind simplistic. It is, at its core, "Here is a character who knows all this helpful info, he didn't bother helping for 10,000 years but now he is, and here we are." There are a few ways they could have drawn on established lore to make Primaris more logical, like tieing their origins to Thunder Warriors or Corax's failed marines, but the writers chose not to do that for a quick and easy writing solution. So... it's not BAD, it's just BORING. That said, the models are great, and pretty much every other release and accompanying lore is great. That Aeldari stuff is IMO solid gold, as are TS and DG. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343383-your-thoughts-on-the-primaris-and-lore-progression/page/20/#findComment-4992433 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wargamer Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 People need to remember that we're seeing the results of changes grouped together, not individually. It's entirely possible that the new rules, models and actually talking to the customer is a net gain for GW, but the writing is driving people away - in other words, they'd do even better if they weren't hiring toddlers to write the new lore. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343383-your-thoughts-on-the-primaris-and-lore-progression/page/20/#findComment-4992485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chamberlainskeksil Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Most people eat McDonalds, shovel Doritos into their face, and don’t brush their teeth. Alcohol and tobacco are lucrative. Ashley Madison had like a hundred thousand subscribers. Numbers and buying trends aren’t a justification in and of themselves. If someone dislikes what GW is doing now, then it's an example of the stupidity of crowds. If someone likes what GW is doing now, then it's proof of positive qualities in the product itself. Confirmation bias either way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343383-your-thoughts-on-the-primaris-and-lore-progression/page/20/#findComment-4992538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 A large part of the issue I think is that we've had an info dump, not a drip-feed. The sheer inelegant haste has made it look like a naked sales pitch, and a lazy one at that. Like, potential Chekov's Guns such as the Cursed Founding aren't even referenced, and instead we just have Cawl having worked for 10,000 years without any setbacks that we've had a chance to see. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343383-your-thoughts-on-the-primaris-and-lore-progression/page/20/#findComment-4992541 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chamberlainskeksil Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 People need to remember that we're seeing the results of changes grouped together, not individually. It's entirely possible that the new rules, models and actually talking to the customer is a net gain for GW, but the writing is driving people away - in other words, they'd do even better if they weren't hiring toddlers to write the new lore. As far as their financial interests go "they'd do even better" is pretty much irrelevant as they already are doing better than anyone could have imagined. Some unknown additional revenue over a record setting sales period is not a reason for GW to second guess themselves. "We have this new product and combined with our marketing plan, we have record sales! Oh that means we probably did something wrong because we could have had even more sales if the people who don't like the new product could have somehow liked it! We need to start designing to please everyone! That'll work, right?" I don't think any game goes through an version change with their entire previous customer base intact. Some depart. Some new people come. Any measure of success being one where no one leaves is just unrealistic. I do get that there's probably a portion of those unhappy with the Primaris who really thought they were objectively bad and that GW's sales would suffer as a result. They didn't though. So I guess the next response is to blame the stupidity of the average person or to claim the success was actually failure because they could have done better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343383-your-thoughts-on-the-primaris-and-lore-progression/page/20/#findComment-4992544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
toaae Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 People need to remember that we're seeing the results of changes grouped together, not individually. It's entirely possible that the new rules, models and actually talking to the customer is a net gain for GW, but the writing is driving people away - in other words, they'd do even better if they weren't hiring toddlers to write the new lore. Everytime someone falls back on the argument that GW's financials are doing well, so obviously people support the new fluff, I just have to shake my head. GW does a lot more than peddle fluff, and weak fluff would still sell if it's attached to good models and fun rules. Furthermore, even if they did just sell fluff, there have been plenty of examples of poor writing selling well. I'm not comparing Primaris to Twilight or Fifty Shades of Gray, but the point stands. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343383-your-thoughts-on-the-primaris-and-lore-progression/page/20/#findComment-4992546 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chamberlainskeksil Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 People need to remember that we're seeing the results of changes grouped together, not individually. It's entirely possible that the new rules, models and actually talking to the customer is a net gain for GW, but the writing is driving people away - in other words, they'd do even better if they weren't hiring toddlers to write the new lore. Everytime someone falls back on the argument that GW's financials are doing well, so obviously people support the new fluff, I just have to shake my head. GW does a lot more than peddle fluff, and weak fluff would still sell if it's attached to good models and fun rules. Furthermore, even if they did just sell fluff, there have been plenty of examples of poor writing selling well. I'm not comparing Primaris to Twilight or Fifty Shades of Gray, but the point stands. GW's financials are doing well, so obviously the fiction works as part of the product line they sell. No need to make any statement about its quality. I happen to believe GW is right to credit their marketing and customer communication, but either way, we know the future. GW isn't going to second guess themselves. Anyone who dislikes the current direction is in for more disappointment. At the end of the day, Gathering Storm/Dark Imperium will be decided by GW's profits. If it boosts sales, GW will continue the trend. This is the only reason I brought up GW's financial results. And I made no claim about them in relation to the quality of the writing other than to say it was possible that it contributed positively but also possible it contributed negatively, but either way it was largely irrelevant because of how strong their current marketing approach is. The future is Primaris. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343383-your-thoughts-on-the-primaris-and-lore-progression/page/20/#findComment-4992563 Share on other sites More sharing options...
toaae Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 The future is Primaris. I don't think anyone doubts this. But the great thing about fluff is it can be changed. Hopefully it improves. Sure, some of it can't be taken back. As much as some of us would have rather just seen Primaris models as a new line of armor, or upgraded marines or whatever, the basis of who they are and where they came from is pretty heavily set. But GW could reel back on having Cawl at the center of everything. That wouldn't be a hard retcon, and by spreading out his achievements to other parts of the Mechanicus, it would alleviate some of my criticisms of the new fluff. But, since I don't think that's likely, I'll just complain about it. Thank god for hobbies, right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343383-your-thoughts-on-the-primaris-and-lore-progression/page/20/#findComment-4992588 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Primaris models as a new line of armorOh, but they are, and that’s actually the beauty of the whole thing: don’t like the Primaris fluff? Then everyone got the new organs, or no one did. It’s just Marines in power armor like usual. Oh look, some new rules for them too, choose how you want to play all your Marines, folks - there’s no difference - and new guns, and new organizational templates! Who the heck is this person calling himself Guilliman? Doesn’t look like any statue of him I’ve ever seen. :lol: Cawl at the center of everythingDoesn’t sound like anything I’ve heard! You’ve got to be careful of those Mechanicum chaps, they will peddle anything day to day to boost the ego of the Adept-of-the-Day. :lol: I'll just complain about it. Thank god for hobbies, right?As long as it’s constructive, you can even do it right here on the BnC! Life is fantastic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343383-your-thoughts-on-the-primaris-and-lore-progression/page/20/#findComment-4992609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shockmaster Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Obviously I am assuming since nobody has any exact evidence but based on my experience the number of players in the real world who don't buy models because the background material in a codex is poor is a tiny minority of the GW customer base, as long as the models are appealing and their rules are not so obviously bad that they feel terrible even in a casual setting then they will sell well. I personally don't have a problem with the codex fluff being model focused as those books only really exist for playing the game anyway, leave the BL authors to iron out the haphazard material you find in every codex whatever the army from whatever period of the game. I am not a big fan of the official background for Primaris marines but I have done some simple changes in my own head so that I enjoy them more, my current preferred background for them is that they are the next stage in enhanced super soldiers in the same way the Space Marines took over from Thunder Warriors & that Cawl may be taking the credit but most of the work was actually done in secret by the Big E before he ended up in the Golden Throne. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343383-your-thoughts-on-the-primaris-and-lore-progression/page/20/#findComment-4992611 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slave to Darkness Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 How about those Nurgle? They can only do so many releases a year. Besides, what's wrong with Custodes? They aren't Marines and people want them so GW has delivered. People wanted Sisters of Battle more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343383-your-thoughts-on-the-primaris-and-lore-progression/page/20/#findComment-4992869 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 People wanted Sisters of Battle more. I didn't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343383-your-thoughts-on-the-primaris-and-lore-progression/page/20/#findComment-4992889 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexington Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 BL is Gw. You complain about lore, the lore from the gaming books is minimal. We are in a new phase where we learn from the framework of the rulebook rather than the novels (hasn't happened since what, 2nd ed?). The books fill in the story and fill it out. You can't just ignore books and say that you only care about the gaming books. Eh, "minimal" is, like so much else here, relative. The immortal Codex Imperialis from 2nd Edition was a trim ninety-six pages, smaller by far than the background in even today's rulebook, and it had game stats crammed in to boot. You can do a lot with a little, if you're doing it right. Not to minimize the importance of BL, but it shouldn't be required reading to understand the setting. Since we're mostly talking about game book fiction, other game book fiction is the best comparison. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343383-your-thoughts-on-the-primaris-and-lore-progression/page/20/#findComment-4992892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 The rulebook and various codecies have general outlines of the lore that will give anyone an understanding but the BL books do flash things out more. It's why I advocate people to experience the novels set around the 8th edition changes. -Watchers of the Throne -Devastation of Baal -Dark Imperium Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343383-your-thoughts-on-the-primaris-and-lore-progression/page/20/#findComment-4992978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 How about those Nurgle? They can only do so many releases a year. Besides, what's wrong with Custodes? They aren't Marines and people want them so GW has delivered. People wanted Sisters of Battle more. Hate to say it but I can see with the return of Guilliman and his faith in the Imperial truth, the downfall of the ecclessiarchy and it's minions. Imperium is getting way to many armies. 5 major SM factions, Custodes, IG, AdMech, Knights, assassin's, inquisitors, not to mention the SoS belong somewhere. The only promise I see is that they are in the codex, and Saint Celestine is new. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343383-your-thoughts-on-the-primaris-and-lore-progression/page/20/#findComment-4993024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wargamer Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 How about those Nurgle? They can only do so many releases a year. Besides, what's wrong with Custodes? They aren't Marines and people want them so GW has delivered. People wanted Sisters of Battle more. A vocal minority wanted Sisters of Battle more. Nurgle has always had a larger and more mainstream fanbase than Sisters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343383-your-thoughts-on-the-primaris-and-lore-progression/page/20/#findComment-4993120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Yep, Nurgle and Death Guard are probably 10x more popular than Sisters... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343383-your-thoughts-on-the-primaris-and-lore-progression/page/20/#findComment-4993156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Totally agree with that. Death Guard are massively popular. I would add that Custodes should perhaps not have come before new releases for Orks, Eldar, Tau, Necrons and Tyranids. That smacks of new vs legacy, much like AoS. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343383-your-thoughts-on-the-primaris-and-lore-progression/page/20/#findComment-4993163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mileposter Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 The trouble with the Custodes release is that, given the lead time, the arrival of Custodes was set years ago while the Codex release order was set far more recently. They likely weren't done soon enough to release before 8th, and sitting on them until the other Codices were finished would be a very bad investment. Given the changeover, it's even possible that the release of Primaris and Custodes were determined by OldGW and NewGW is simply required to manage the leftovers until their own plans come through the pipeline. Screams more of logistical fallout rather than deliberate intent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343383-your-thoughts-on-the-primaris-and-lore-progression/page/20/#findComment-4993168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SickSix Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 There is no question that Primaris models are a success. The lore is still awful. But most gamers care more about models and rules. I think I am really the strongest Primaris dissenter in my local group. And that is purely lore driven. Check any 40k Facebook group and it will be flooded with pictures of Primaris marines. And one thing that actually makes me smile, is how many custom chapters you see now. For whatever reason, Primaris have really inspired people to be more original. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343383-your-thoughts-on-the-primaris-and-lore-progression/page/20/#findComment-4993592 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mileposter Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 GW did hand out a bunch of "How to make your own Chapter" flyers and bits when the Ultima founding was first mentioned as a thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343383-your-thoughts-on-the-primaris-and-lore-progression/page/20/#findComment-4993613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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