Your thoughts on the Primaris and lore progression

[Sete]

The Emperor wasn't involved in that decision at all.

[Bryan Blaire]

Waste? It was the Emperor's will.

You got some quote from one of the pieces of lore to back up the Emperor stating that directly to someone?

 

Other people making the decision about it need not apply, they can be discounted easily as misinterpretation of intent.

[Blindhamster]

Far as we know, it was Guillimans will. Before he was defeated by Fulgrim. Nothing suggests it was the emperor's will, although the custodes being on board with it does suggest big E is backing Guilliman.

[Ishagu]

Use your imagination guys. Guilliman "speaks" for the Emperor, more or less. He commands the high Lords.

 

The fabricator general of Mars himself will order the Forgeworlds into compliance to manufacture the new technologies of the 42nd millenium, or he will be removed from his position.

 

The Space Marines are autonomous to an extent - but they can't go AGAINST the will of the entire Imperium hierarchy, administration and High Lords.

These charges are coming from the very top of all the major Imperium institutions.

 

I know some of you are hoping for this to be in some way a grand Heresy, but the whole point of the new lore is that the Imperium is galvanised for the first time with a singular purpose. The high Lords aren't squabbling for power plays - they are doing what they are supposed to.

The Imperium would already have fallen if it wasn't for these changes. How many of you even know that if it wasn't for Guilliman and the Custodes Terra would already be cut off completely by Warp Storms due to the machinations of Chaos?

[toaae]

It's incredibly poor fluff, and only serves to confirm my fear that the current direction isn't interested on building on what made the setting unique and instead doubling down on comic book antics. 

 

EDIT: I just don't understand why the writers felt like they had to make it some mandate that EVERY chapter was required to have Primaris. The galaxy is a big place, and just accounting for it is a sisyphean task that requires billions of bureaucrats working tirelessly to maintain a fraction of the numbers. So why even write fluff saying that some small portion of a faction that is only 10,000 strong are going around, enforcing some sort of standard? It wouldn't ever accomplish a fraction of it's goals.

 

It only serves to tell people "We don't care what fluff you wrote for your chapter, you have to have primaris". It shrinks the galaxy and reduces our freedom for customizing our forces backgrounds.

[Wargamer]

"The Emperor's Will" argument is fundamentally flawed when you remember the entire Imperium is built assuming half of it is about to turn traitor on the other half. This is why the Guard have no ships and the Navy no troops; it's why Space Marine Chapters are supposed to be too weak to go empire building, and why every office has another office whose express job is to shoot them at the first sign of deviancy.

 

Cawl should have not only been executed long ago, but erased from history.

[MrDarth151]

Use your imagination guys. Guilliman "speaks" for the Emperor, more or less. He commands the high Lords.

 

Oh, yes, I'm using my imagination right now.

 

Of course GW will make everyone fall on their knees and worship Roboute.

 

I'm just waiting if to see to what degree they will :cuss on The Lion when they inevitably bring him back to make him accept this.

 

The Imperium would already have fallen if it wasn't for these changes. How many of you even know that if it wasn't for Guilliman and the Custodes Terra would already be cut off completely by Warp Storms due to the machinations of Chaos?

 

I do. On the other hand, has someone pointed out to you that the only reason those means were necessary was because they pulled a massive Chaos victory entirely out of their ass, right?

 

All of which doesn't matter, because Primaris are not a bad concept in principle. You know what is?

 

Associating them with Roboute and ONLY Roboute. It frankly makes it look like an attempt at homogenising the setting even more, by making every single variant of Space Marines more like Ultramarines. And :cuss that. I want to play Blood Angels, not Ultramarines in red armour.

 

#GabrielSethWasRight

[Marshal Rohr]

“The Imperium is galvanized for the first time with a singular purpose”, except, of course, That time it conquered the galaxy. Oh, and scourged the galaxy of traitors. Oh, and the war of the Beast. Don’t let that stop you, though.

[Lucerne]

A chapter exists in M41. It's a brotherhood of a thousand Astartes, with a proud history, legends and glories and defeats and each Marine secure in the knowledge they and their chapter are the truest inheritors of their Primarch's legacy. The one, truest interpretation of the Codex's dictates. They wage war as their predecessors did, and their predecessors before that until the ancient Founding, wielding treasured, precious artifacts of past, more glorious ages. For the Imperium and for the Emperor.

 

But then Cadia breaks, the Eye spreads across the galaxy like an open wound, and what was becoming an unstable situation becomes an untenable one. The Chapter survives, though every Marine in it loses brothers, friends, fellows. Worse still is the knowledge- repressed, denied, raged against, that this is the beginning of the end. For their Chapter, for the Imperium, for mankind...and it happened on their watch. Astartes don't respond well to defeat. They may not know fear, but fatigue and spite fester in the ranks. They lose whatever patience they may have had for mortal frailties as they struggle to maintain what little order they can with the seeming dying of the light.

 

Maybe their homeworlds or recruitworlds are lost, or worse. Maybe there's treachery from fellow Imperial forces that they then put down. Either way, their numbers are whittled down, but they hold, they maintain an island of stability...and then, far too late to matter, reinforcements arrive. Imperial reinforcements- from a Crusade, the grandest of all Crusades- against the darkness. These are not fellow Astartes. They are strange, imperious golden statues, the stuff of legends. The Emperor's own eyes and reach, in the flesh- tersely, coldly assessing the ragged brotherhood...and finding them wanting.

 

They are told this is a rescue. That, impossibly, Primarch Guilliman- perhaps their own Chapter's father figure from the distant past- has returned and wages war. That on his word- on what grounds? With what proof? This is clearly impossible, and they've seen far too many lies and tricks from the Archenemy already- they are to be given their share of resources and to await further instructions, like a master throwing a dog a bone. The fleet hangs overhead- not for protection, but for something else.

 

And then the unkindest cut of all. Their new brothers land. These are not Space Marines. These are not their brothers. These are malformed, lumbering...things, oversized golems clad in alien, clearly heretical- innovation is heresy- armor and wielding new weapons, fresh from some mad magos's forge. This heretek, this Cawl...Who is he to discard the artifacts of the glorious past? Who is he to try and improve on the Emperor's own work?

 

They call themselves Primaris. The brothers call them mutant, quietly at first. Abomination. Genecrime. The Custodian Guard- the proud, strutting peacocks in their shining armor, fresh from an eternity on Terra while the galaxy burned- had made it clear refusal is not an option. Accept these creatures pretending to be brothers into their ranks, or die in shame as traitors. No choice at all.

 

Perhaps it starts from the ranks. Mutinous mutterings, too many for the Chaplains or sergeants to suppress. Perhaps the sergeants and the chaplains are to blame in the first place- after all the Chaplains are meant to guard against heresy and divergence from the Chapter cults...and these revelations and decrees are nothing if not divergent from the way of things. The Primaris themselves don't help matters- too detached, too wide-eyed, too vocally eager to march in lockstep with the orders of a distant, uncaring Primarch- anyone can find fault with them if they try hard enough, and the jaded marines have enough reasons to try. Maybe warp whispers worsen an existing problem, or perhaps cause it to fester at the Chapter's heart.

 

Whatever the cause, it ends in butchery- brothers hacking apart and gunning down those who would be their fellows in calculated, vindictive, cathartic savagery. Even caught by surprise, the Primaris rally around each other, and reap a bloody toll on their attackers...But already distrusted and never given a chance, they are too few and their foes too many. They all die. From there...what is one more betrayal when retribution is inevitable?

 

On distant Terra, eventually, still another brotherhood is struck from the scrolls of honor. Excommunicate traitoris.

[Firepower]

The Primaris roll out beat the setting half to death with a frozen swordfish.  The Custodes fluff held its head under the water until the bubbles stopped.  One more in a growing list of books for me to utterly ignore as inane heretical dribble.  

[Ishagu]

Hey the argument that Primaris aren't varied enough is a totally valid one.

 

They are a new range. A few years from now we'll probably have loads of new kits and chapter specific units.

 

The original marine range didn't launch with multiple tanks, infantry types or dozens of HQs

[Shockmaster]

Not sure why your bothering Ishagu although I respect your attempt to offer a counter point to the opinion 40k is forever ruined now.

 

Just to be clear I do believe GW could have done a better job on the introduction of Primaris but I still think there is a huge overreaction to them by a minority of the GW customer base.

 

As I have said before, if I did not read internet forums I would have had no idea this had caused so much outrage, as in my local gaming communities it is either actively excited about them or just don't really care one way or the other. 

[Bryan Blaire]

If anyone thinks that politicians and the Administratium weren’t politicking while the Emperor was alive and conducting the Great Crusade, they don’t understand how set ups like work. If you think that politicking and back-room in-fighting doesn’t occur when focused on a single goal, there’s some observing of the real world that needs to go on.

 

But imagining a Regent “speaking” for an Emperor, that’s happened before in our history, there’s no imagination necessary - regents/stand-ins do things that rulers don’t particularly care for, however the ruler has to back the play, or make a poor political move (outing that a member of your inner circle was doing things you didn’t want, it can make your position weak). That’s the problem with having people speak for you.

 

For all we know, the next book BL writes has someone using the Emperor’s Tarot and the reading shows that the Emperor feels this is all wrong... I doubt it, but it could happen. We could even have conflicting written accounts.

 

It’s not all about the Primaris, and whether the models, line and even their direct fluff is decent. In reality, the story of the Primaris is that they are that much closer to what a Primarch is, they actually share a part of one Primarch organ - that’s something that should have been an amazing development. Instead, there’s development and follow-on fluff that was poorly done as well in an attempt to explain and disperse everything (when really it didn’t need to be).

[Ishagu]

Shockmaster - It could have been better, I agree. I think the Gathering Storm books were too rushed and too full of battles, despite the actual story outline not being too bad.

 

I've been to a lot of hobby stores, gaming clubs and tournaments and you're right - there isn't a pathological hatred towards the new lore or Primaris marines. There are certainly a lot of happy collectors, however.

 

Complaining about a thin Primaris range is like complaining about a lack of story in a movie's opening credits.

[Bryan Blaire]

Complaining about a thin Primaris range is like complaining about a lack of story in a movie's opening credits.

Can you quote this complaint? Aside from a single sentence, the last three pages have had nothing to do with this.

 

You also still haven’t provided the quote to show that any of this is the actual will of the Emperor.

 

And no, 40K isn’t ruined, thank the Emperor. 41K isn’t off on the greatest foot, but at least GW didn’t pull some kind of crazy ret-con throwing all this stuff back into 40K.

[BitsHammer]

The Custodes who are running around telling everyone that it's the Emperor's Will apparently regularly get visions from him and spend time trying to interpret them. So yeah, could be the Emperor's Will.

 

Knowing what we know about the Big Cheese, he's fond of throwing out his toys when their suitability is exceeded. He killed the Thunder Warriors and made the Astartes to replace them, he was likely planning on killing the Astartes as well, and knowing how the galaxy has grown messier over ten thousand years (Necrons waking, Tyranids arriving, the Beast, ect) he'd likely gone with Astartes 2.0 himself to combat the problem.

 

So I can see him being on board with this idea.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Custodes who are running around telling everyone that it's the Emperor's Will apparently regularly get visions from him and spend time trying to interpret them. So yeah, could be the Emperor's Will.

 

Knowing what we know about the Big Cheese, he's fond of throwing out his toys when their suitability is exceeded. He killed the Thunder Warriors and made the Astartes to replace them, he was likely planning on killing the Astartes as well, and knowing how the galaxy has grown messier over ten thousand years (Necrons waking, Tyranids arriving, the Beast, ect) he'd likely gone with Astartes 2.0 himself to combat the problem.

 

So I can see him being on board with this idea.

Him killing the thunder warriors and planning on killing the legions is all new fluff. In the past few years. It was never always a thing that the space marines were obsolete.

[BitsHammer]

Considering that Marines are more likely to commit tech heresy first (all those field mod versions of the Razorback to give it new weapons, the MkV armour), I don't think they get to point any fingers there. I'm willing to bet it was a Marine who invented the Stormbolter by taping two bolters together and telling the Techmarine to take a hike because he has hordes to thin.

 

And new fluff or not, it's still a valid source to look at and go "yeah, I could see it."

 

YES this is hamfisted, but it doesn't mean it's not a thing that could still plausibly happen in the lore.

[Lucerne]

Considering that Marines are more likely to commit tech heresy first (all those field mod versions of the Razorback to give it new weapons, the MkV armour), I don't think they get to point any fingers there. I'm willing to bet it was a Marine who invented the Stormbolter by taping two bolters together and telling the Techmarine to take a hike because he has hordes to thin.

 

And new fluff or not, it's still a valid source to look at and go "yeah, I could see it."

 

YES this is hamfisted, but it doesn't mean it's not a thing that could still plausibly happen in the lore.

The honored brother of the chapter performing rites on the vehicles is easier to rationalize than NEW AND IMPROVED MARINES.

 

Also, Marines are hypocrites? Say it isn't so!

[Marshal Rohr]

Considering that Marines are more likely to commit tech heresy first (all those field mod versions of the Razorback to give it new weapons, the MkV armour), I don't think they get to point any fingers there. I'm willing to bet it was a Marine who invented the Stormbolter by taping two bolters together and telling the Techmarine to take a hike because he has hordes to thin.

 

And new fluff or not, it's still a valid source to look at and go "yeah, I could see it."

 

YES this is hamfisted, but it doesn't mean it's not a thing that could still plausibly happen in the lore.

Hamfisted, by its nature, is implausible. You really mean to tell me you think taller marine models and no changes to the lore would’ve been less contentious than changing the lore?

[Bryan Blaire]

It doesn’t even have to go that far, Ugolino, Chapters can simply be lost. If the Imperium doesn’t know they are there, or has only reports of rumors, then it’s likely the Chapters simply stay lost and are not accounted for amongst those receiving the Primaris information. That could even be the basis for Marine-on-Marine Two-Loyalist action - confusion over “who the heck are you and why do you/don’t you have these bigger guys amongst you?”

 

Also, let’s not act like there’s a required direct correlation between feelings toward the Primaris models and the Primaris or 41K fluff. It’s not a polar thing - you can like some bits of each and dislike the same.

 

For instance, I like Intercessors, Hellblasters (although I could have done with a different name), and Reivers, and even the Gravis on the ground minus the goofy not-Librarian hoods, but the Inceptors as GW-envisioned made me grumble and convert. On the fluff side, the fluff behind the Primaris themselves is not good as put together, but I don’t detest the idea of them, just the execution. On the other hand, there’s some things I like just fine about the 41K fluff - the Maledictum, the Imperium being on the ropes and striving to fight back, technology being cobbled together imperfectly or being minutely improved.

[Schlitzaf]

Replace Primaris with (Imperium Faction) like SoB post Age of Apostasy. And get a similar effect

 

“During Vindire Reign these ____. Barely able to hold their own world and the nearby Shrine World’s. They receive reinforcements while not Brothers, they call themselves His Agents. The Sisters of Battle, their armor ostentious and wasteful or worse. And told they are their allies in battle. But the Ministorum whom they serve as forbidden from ‘Men Under Arms’. This is heresy of the largest, had Vandire not risen with an army of deluded citizens?

 

They are blatant in their complete disregard for the Ministorum ban of ‘Men Under Arms’. They wear armor that showcases themselves as women as if to make clear ‘we are women and not men’.... Over time these women, their so called allies and what they represent as a complete disregard of his will infuriates. Worse the fact their Canoness sees herself as an equal to the Chapter Master. And during battle they demonstrated Witchery acts. Uncontrolled and unguarded. Believing them to traitors or folks whom will lead Emperor’s flock away from his light.

 

The Adeptus Ministorum hears this blatant aggression. And has the chapter declared excommocated traitorous”.

 

Anything can be made into a reason for treachery. Your point?

[Lucerne]

That's the thing. Space Marines and, yes, mortals go traitor over far less grievous insults than Primaris represent, and Space Marines are infamously prickly, independent, and proud. Bonus points for hitting all of the same notes that led to the Heresy in the first place!

[DuskRaider]

Just remember: Guilliman knows better than the Emperor and somehow some Mechanicum guy can improve Astartes more than the Emperor himself could. Just wait until 9th Edition when Cawl makes an Astronomicon machine and they just dump the Emperor's corpse in the trash bin.

[Schlitzaf]

If your point it generates Heresy so? Everything can and will generate Heresy. Finding out the Imperial Truth or Edict of Nicaea will spawn just as many heretics as not.

 

Cawl didn’t make better Astartes than Emperor could have. The Emperor for whatever reason didn’t want too. It’s why he during herey told Corax, the way to make Astartes+ till Alpha Legion intervened. And do we know Gulliman knows better? All we know is Emperor’s is hopeful (maybe) based on the short scene described during Gathering Storm. Like I get not liking Primaris, but I know I am more alone. But as I iterated earlier, love that they aren’t true scale Marines but have new rules. Because if just another Armor Mark, I wouldn’t have frankly cared.

 

Them being a whole new unit finally gave me new toys to play with. I have played literally same army sense late 5th. Sometimes Rhino Rush sometimes Tiding. But no other new release has ever interested me. I don’t care for fliers or Centurions, or just “Heresy Armors”. Intercessors being a new unit got me to buy them. I enjoy their flavor and what it explicitly opens (not that it was impossible beforehand). And finally it perfectly matched the flavor of my Crusade. Or what it needed; Reinforcements.