The Power Armoured Troops thread, take 2: possible fixes

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

 

We seem to have a few schools of thought regarding fixes:

 

- Some folk want wargear amendments.

 

- Some folk want stat changes.

 

- Some folk (myself championing it so take that as objective as you like ) want Stratagems amended and changes linked to that (CP generation etc).

 

Let me know if there's an element/faction amongst us I've missed.

Yes there is one. I'd like main rulebook changes to boost all infantry. That includes PA squads and PA squads' best targets, which they don't see enough of.

 

The problem I see with carte blanche power boost for all PA squads is that things dont scale very well. Orks are considered to be on par, if not stronger than space marines at the base level. Sororitas, lacking the black carapace and genetic augmentation of astartes can still wield around heavy weapons like Storm Bolters, Multi-Melta's and Heavy Bolters (which for guardsmen would at minimum be a 2 man weapons team) like they are astartes, but are still only S3 T3. Unless we were to scale down guardsmen and Tau to S2 T2, let Sororitas be S3 T3, Astartes S4 T4 and Primaris to be S5 T5, then you could probably scale around the problem a bit better. You would have to scale down the Eldar to S2 T2 and maybe put the Dark Eldar to S2 T3, while Tyranids would probably have to be scaled up to S5 T5 for genestealers, and probably go S3 T4 for things like termagaunts. Necrons would probably have to be S4 T5 base.

 

If you want to fix the stat lines, you are going to have to re-scale pretty much the entire system. So many races have MEQ that things like Tau, Guard and Eldar should be weaker than they are, while other things like Necrons, Tyranids and Orks would need to be stronger in comparison to marines. Another problem that basic Tactical marines suffer from is they are pretty much the ONLY troop choice besides scouts (which have the marine stat line but not the save). When you compare Tacticals to the multiple and varied options you have for elite or fast attack options, you are pretty much painted into a corner for tacticals. Their Bolt weapons are not that great especially against MEQ units. You cant load them up with much in the way of special weapons or heavy weapons like you would with sternguard or devastators. You cant equip them with chainswords, and with the addition of Primaris having 2 base attacks and inherently being superior for melee with 2 wounds and 2 attacks a piece, so lacking true grit (which was pushed to grey knights to make them feel more specialized) and you cant equip them with bolters and chainswords, they are lackluster at the best of times. 1 shot out to 24", 2 shots in 12", 1 attack in melee and only 1 wound. Compare that to assault marines with 12", chainswords and things like plasma pistols and melta bombs, or devastators with loads of heavy bolters, plasma cannons, lascannons and such. Sternguard are not great thanks to being stuck with their special boltguns or combi-weapons are okay but taking up an elite slot that could probably be spent on something else.

 

I would say if you could push basic Assault Marines (no jet packs) and say a squad of tacticals able to take full special weapons (plasma guns, melta guns, flamers, melta bombs) and make them a new squad type called Tactical Raiders so that way Vanguard and Sternguard actually feel like elite choices. That would help make Tacticals feel more useful. The lack of equipment choices and how terrible the basic bolter is the reason why people feel like they are forced to take them to fill out their FOC so they can get the better toys in their detachments.

 

Going that route though is going to have to require a whole new edition of rules to compensate for all the changes.

[Beta galactosidase]

Sorry.  I just want the section of the rulebook with the infantry keyword to have a buff added, the same one for all infantry in the game. Space Marines are infantry, and they kill infantry, and so its good if other armies use more infantry. 

[totgeboren]

Regarding Tactical Marines not feeling Mariney enough; there is game balance to consider. I'm happy with how the game works generally. 8th is mostly balanced. It's the little things that need boosting to taste the flavour of the army.

 

Yeah but that's the big issue isn't it? Many feel that the game isn't well balanced now. Sure, it would be hard to argue that balance is worse than what it was during the end of 7ed, but I think Tacticals both feel excessively mediocre, and also rather overcosted at the moment. And those are two different things, were a 'fix' might address one point but not the other.

Edited January 18, 2018 by totgeboren

[Claws and Effect]

I don't think the statline needs buffed. You'd have to be exceptionally careful with that anyway. Don't want to have xenos players legitimately complaining that Marines' basic Troops choice is better than some of their Elites choices.

 

And if it gets buffed, people will just start bringing things that kill them better and we're right back where we started. And if you buff Primaris too you'll see people asking how it's fair that a Troops choice has 3 wounds each and a 3+ save.

 

Buffing the Marine statline is a balancing headache waiting to happen.

 

I'm still of the opinion that the issue isn't with the Marines. It's with the fact that everyone builds their army to be able to kill them. If you can kill Marines, you can hold your own against most anything. The problem with that is that it's a lot harder for Marines to build to kill other factions equally well because there is so much variance between them. I mean, if another player you don't know well says they're bringing Guard, you have no idea if you're fighting a horde or a parking lot. But if someone says they're bringing Marines you have a good idea what to expect.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Plasma is for sure part of the problem. It just does too many things.

[The Unseen]

I don't think the statline needs buffed. You'd have to be exceptionally careful with that anyway. Don't want to have xenos players legitimately complaining that Marines' basic Troops choice is better than some of their Elites choices.

 

And if it gets buffed, people will just start bringing things that kill them better and we're right back where we started. And if you buff Primaris too you'll see people asking how it's fair that a Troops choice has 3 wounds each and a 3+ save.

 

Buffing the Marine statline is a balancing headache waiting to happen.

 

 

Well, I guess we shouldn't bring up custodes then should we? I wonder what it would be like to have your elite unit's in an already elite army totally outclassed by a different armies troop choice. Ohh wait...

 

Considering their basic troop choice is a 3 wound, t5, 2+ save, 4++ invuln save monster, with a power weapon and uber-bolter.

[Ishagu]

I think with Primaris and Custodes in the picture, regular Marines aren't really "Elite" anymore.

[Beams]

Marines can't comfortably move in any direction for stats: make then weaker and they are sisters, make them stronger than they are primaris.

 

Changing their guns is a problem, since that causes issues with other units who use the same gun.

 

Honestly, I think the answer could be found in Death watch/sternguards special ammo? Give tactical squads 'tactical ammo' ability to shoot either Str 4 rapid fire 24", heavy 1 Str 4 ap-1 24" on a 6+ you do a mortal wound, or assault 2 range 18" ignores cover. That way you could use different tactics for different situations: Scouts in cover with a 2+ cover save? Run towards them and fire the ignore cover one to remove them. A Dreadknight standing strong with it's 2++? Hit it with the sniper ammo.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Beams

[Deschenus Maximus]

I like that, but then what do Sternguard have?

[Beams]

I like that, but then what do Sternguard have?

They'd keep their special issue boltgun, which is 30" rapid fire, Str 4 AP -2 or gain special rounds to augment that. But honestly, that boltgun looks amazing.

 

I don't know if sternguards arent being used, but if so, you might be able to drop them a point or two? Celestians gain a +1 attack and LD and bodyguard and only cost 1-2 more points than a sister, so a 15 pt marine with a 2 point -2 AP Bolter at 17 would be fine with me.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Beams

[chapter master 454]

The main issue is a lack of identity within themselves. While they are a troop choice they have no real solid identity as the 'utility' squad. While it could be argued you are meant to run around with them this starts to cause several issues ether way we do it. If we move it argues with the heavy weapons and if stationary is argues with the rest of the squad. Really the big handicap is the heavy weapon. IMO it seems to be a recurring issue that tacticals have a heavy weapon option and most don't really think it a good idea.

 

So maybe another option is to open up their most unique aspect: special weapon selection. Special weapons could be argued as the most 'tactical' weapons in the game when considered in marines. Dealing with armour? Melta. Dealing with Hordes? Flamer. Dealing with light armour? Plasma. Dealing with traitors? Exterminatus...I mean Grav. This is their most unique aspect among the trinity of marine units. I would say that tacticals should be allowed up to 4 special weapon options and in that same vein, make it so they always go in 10s (this removes the min-max of just taking 5 mans, something that should be addressed to all squads within marines really). That's my thoughts, having decided to take a new angle of approach to this debate since many don't like the idea of giving tacticals too many options.

[The Unseen]

I think with Primaris and Custodes in the picture, regular Marines aren't really "Elite" anymore.

And therefore GW has failed from a lore perspective, while also making standard marines lacking a defined role or use on table.

If GW wants to have 3 different levels of super soldier in their game, they need to increase the range of stats really.

Because "fluff"-wise a marine and a custodes are not all that disparate, the custode is overall superior, and they all effectively have artificer armor and relic blades, but not an order of magnitude better physically, but on the table the custode just over exaggerates the fact that marines look like supremely over priced guardsmen.

 

I would say that tacticals should be allowed up to 4 special weapon options and in that same vein, make it so they always go in 10s (this removes the min-max of just taking 5 mans, something that should be addressed to all squads within marines really). That's my thoughts, having decided to take a new angle of approach to this debate since many don't like the idea of giving tacticals too many options.

That's because it breaks with literally decades of very well established fluff, steps on veterans toes way too much, and finally doesn't do anything about the fact that bolter marines play and feel like over priced extra wounds for the special weapons. If you want 4 specials surronded by meatshields, play scions, they already do that better.

[Claws and Effect]

 

I don't think the statline needs buffed. You'd have to be exceptionally careful with that anyway. Don't want to have xenos players legitimately complaining that Marines' basic Troops choice is better than some of their Elites choices.

 

And if it gets buffed, people will just start bringing things that kill them better and we're right back where we started. And if you buff Primaris too you'll see people asking how it's fair that a Troops choice has 3 wounds each and a 3+ save.

 

Buffing the Marine statline is a balancing headache waiting to happen.

 

 

Well, I guess we shouldn't bring up custodes then should we? I wonder what it would be like to have your elite unit's in an already elite army totally outclassed by a different armies troop choice. Ohh wait...

 

Considering their basic troop choice is a 3 wound, t5, 2+ save, 4++ invuln save monster, with a power weapon and uber-bolter.

Yeah, that's great.

 

And a SINGLE Custodes costs more than most armies entire squads of Troops.

 

Over 50 points a model? Yeah, that can go ahead and be tough as hell. When a 500 point game limits you to less than a full squad those dudes better be tough as nails.

 

I'd be upset if they were that tough and only a few points more. But each dude costs 4 times what a Marine does.

 

Well, at least until their actual Codex comes out.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Claws and Effect

[Ishagu]

I think that the conscript nerf and brimstone nerf helps Marines.

I'd also argue that a normal Guardsman should be 5 points, not 4.

 

If the other troops in the game are re-balanced marines wouldn't have the current problems.

[Gentlemanloser]

Claws, I think that post from the Unseen is referencing GK Paladin.

 

Our Elitist unit, which is comparable (and some would say worse... especially when the Guard get BS2+ and 4++ from their Codex...) to the AC basic Troop choice.

 

Grey Knights, as the 'Elite' Marines, have been totally invalidated by the Custodian Guard.

[Claws and Effect]

Claws, I think that post from the Unseen is referencing GK Paladin.

 

Our Elitist unit, which is comparable (and some would say worse... especially when the Guard get BS2+ and 4++ from their Codex...) to the AC basic Troop choice.

 

Grey Knights, as the 'Elite' Marines, have been totally invalidated by the Custodian Guard.

In looking at it, I'd say if Custodes points stay the same, Paladin point cost should go down by 10 points or so.

 

I happen to agree on that.

 

However, I want to see the costs of Custodes Elites points before making a final decision. If their Elites choices are something like 80 points a model then it would be a little more fair for their Troops to cost the same as other's Elites.

[Gentlemanloser]

As far as I'm aware, the bikes are 80 points before weapons.

 

And there's a greater problem here.  You can't drop Paladin points, they are already better than GKT and dropping them to 45 points makes them just about the same cost as GKT.

 

Which you then need to drop also.  Which invalidates Strikes Squads.

 

Why purchase a 21 point (and lets not even look at Purifiers...) Marine, when you can purchase a 32 point Terminator instead?

Edited January 19, 2018 by Gentlemanloser

[Claws and Effect]

How many models can Grey Knights put on the table in a 500 point game? If you're shooting for the most bodies possible.

 

According to my quick research Custodes can take 9 guys. Total.

 

Edit:

 

Nevermind I have my answer. Grey Knights can run a Battalion in a 500 point game.

 

Custodes struggle to field a Patrol. Depending on the cost of their HQ, they might be able to run a 7 man squad of Troops and 1 HQ. Might. If their HQ is super expensive it will be even less.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Claws and Effect

[Gentlemanloser]

I'd assume in low points, AC will run a Vanguard of a cheap HQ and three single Allarus Terminators.

 

For GK, if you really want max number of bodies you could always spam Servitors.  It would be a crap army, but would have a load of bodies.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Gentlemanloser

[Captain Idaho]

I think with Primaris and Custodes in the picture, regular Marines aren't really "Elite" anymore.

Ah come on man. I know you're trying to promote Primaris but they've only got an extra wound and attack on Marines, whilst being a shooting unit with a Necron Gauss rifle.

 

Marines are still Marines. I've used Sternguard and a Captain to kill Genestealers and assault a Broodlord without loss.

 

I've used 10 Tactical Marines to finish off in assault Hormagaunts and totally outclass them.

 

I've killed Genestealer Cult units with Bolters.

 

I've killed a Grey Knight Grandmaster Dreadknight with overcharged plasma guns and finished it with a Contemptor.

 

Let's not sell Marines short for an agenda. ;)

 

The fixes Marines need is encouragement to take under used units like Assault Marines and Tactical squads (not that Tactical squads are underused really) on an equal footing to other armies. The Stratagems need work as they're totally outdated already.

 

The 2 things can easily be fixed together ;)

[UnkyHamHam]

I don't want to derail this conversation too much.  But if you don't feel like responding to my post here, I've made a post over in Homegrown Rules http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/343528-alternative-tactical-squad/

 

Here is my take on all of the reading I've done in the past week on the various threads involved in the subject. I've decided best for balance that many of the suggested changes people have are valid, but not necessarily all at once. So I've given the Tactical Squad a “soft” unit split. Kind of like Scouts are. Scouts essentially are 4 different units based on what core weapon load out you give them.

 

Tactical Squad (Codex: Space Marines, Codex: Blood Angels, and Codex: Dark Angels

 

In addition to the Tactical Squad's normal options and upgrades they MUST select ONE of the following Codex Astartes “Tacticas” at no additional cost. These skills and gear are representative of the decades of warfare experience, adherence to the Codex Astartes drilling and training dogma, basic Chapter combat gear available, as well as the tactical utility earned by having served in Scout/Devastator/and Assault companies.

 

• Intervention Tactica

• Warden Tactica

• Gladius Tactica

 

Intervention Tactical Squad (Favored by Dark Angels and Raven Guard)

 

• May replace any model's Boltgun with a Stalker Pattern Boltgun. 1pt. Per model (exact profile as Deathwatch, but no special ammo)

• May replace Special Weapon with Heavy Weapon at 10 models. (Making 2 Heavies possible)

• Receive “Intervention Tactica”. Squad can shoot at enemies that are engaged in combat or within 1” of a friendly unit. Any to hit rolls of 1 are resolved against the closest friendly unit in the engagement with the enemy instead.

 

Warden Tactical Squad (Favored by Imperial Fists, Salamanders, and Iron Hands)

 

• Any model may take a Warden Breaching Shield in addition to their normal kit. 2Pts. Per model. (-1 Movement/Advance/Charge, Reroll armor saves)

• Cannot take Heavy Weapons, but may take an additional Special Weapon at 10 models.

• Receive “Warden Tactica”. Squad may choose to fire all ranged weapons TWICE during the shooting phase. If choosing to fire twice, all shots are resolved at -1 to hit.

 

Gladius Tactical Squad (Favored by Ultramarines, Blood Angels, and White Scars)

 

• Models Receive Astartes Tactical Combat Blades in addition to their normal kit (for free). In close combat, any to hit roll of 6+ generates an additional attack at Str4/AP0/D1. These attacks cannot themselves generate more hits.

• Squad may freely use the Combat Squad Strategem for no CP cost during game.

• Receive the “Gladius Tactica”. Unit may Advance and fire any Rapid Fire/Assault/Pistol/Grenade weapons at -1 to hit.

 

NEW STRATEGEM

 

Tactical Strike – 1 CP

 

Play on any Tactical Squad during the Shooting Phase. Each model in the unit may make 1 additional shot with a ranged weapon. Additionally 1 model per 5 may throw a grenade. (10 man unit can throw 4 grenades technically if close enough). (Does not stack twice with Warden Tactica)

 

 

As you can see, there is something here for everyone. Combo potentials with Auras, Chapter Tactics, Warlord Traits, and other Strategems is pretty good. Nothing here is over the top or above the abilities or gear that a Tactical Squad would have. I feel like not only do these new additions reward 10 man units, but they provide the tools to actually help fill gaps in a list and perform like real marines. It makes them feel elite, and you can kind of choose the bonus that you feel Marines need to work on the table. Think they die too easily, Warden Tacticals. Think they need more shooting, they each give a different bonus. Think they need more “tactics,” each of them give you a new option. And combined with Strat, allow for you to really plug some holes and lay down some support.

 

Each Tactica rule and the Strategem is pretty powerful. But in the hands of the humble Tactical Squad really isn't that big of a deal.

 

The best part is, GW could sell us 1-2 new kits if they wanted! The current Tactical Squad kit(s) are not invalidated, because they can be played as any of the 3 for different rules, though no shields/stalkers. So then they would either have to make 2 new kits for Warden and Intervention Squads, or create a dual kit. Honestly, Forgeworld or GW could do these rules for Marines and just sell us a Boarding Shield kit (see FW) and a Stalker Bolter ugprade kit (see DW).

 

EDIT:  I just noticed how Wardian it sounded to have Tactical Squads with their Codex Tacticas wielding tactical blades using Tactical Strike.  Haha ;)

Edited January 19, 2018 by UnkyHamHam

[Karack Blackstone]

If I may, and, if I need to bow out quickly, by all means, take this post as a blessing to continue either way, if need be...

 

The Statline route is, as noted, unrealistic, long term.

 

Wargear seems a reasonable fix, however, as noted later in the thread, the issue with Astartes of all types is that they are pretty much the same, no matter what. Be they Chaos or Loyal, the single greatest issue with Tac's and equivalents is that, there is so little variation around, in the game.

 

The more I think about this, the more I just like the cheaper/free option to vary the Heavy and Special options idea, the most.

 

However, that said, there is the issue that the final solution must be workable, as well as, fair and balanced, game wise, points wise, and most of all, fun wise.

 

I do like the idea, and agree, the single biggest issue is that the PA C/SM model as a basic Heavy Infantry tabletop model, is far too predictable. I do have an idea to try and vary this up a little, however, the changes would affect so many books as to probably be too much of a drastic change. I will type it up if requested; otherwise, please proceed as normal.

[UnkyHamHam]

If I may, and, if I need to bow out quickly, by all means, take this post as a blessing to continue either way, if need be...

 

The Statline route is, as noted, unrealistic, long term.

 

Wargear seems a reasonable fix, however, as noted later in the thread, the issue with Astartes of all types is that they are pretty much the same, no matter what. Be they Chaos or Loyal, the single greatest issue with Tac's and equivalents is that, there is so little variation around, in the game.

 

The more I think about this, the more I just like the cheaper/free option to vary the Heavy and Special options idea, the most.

 

However, that said, there is the issue that the final solution must be workable, as well as, fair and balanced, game wise, points wise, and most of all, fun wise.

 

I do like the idea, and agree, the single biggest issue is that the PA C/SM model as a basic Heavy Infantry tabletop model, is far too predictable. I do have an idea to try and vary this up a little, however, the changes would affect so many books as to probably be too much of a drastic change. I will type it up if requested; otherwise, please proceed as normal.

 

I'm definitely Interested, sir!  

 

I agree that statlines are a no go.  Wargear and strategems are the way to go IMO.  I will admit, that I gave little regard to Crusaders, CSM, and Grey Hunters. As I feel they have enough gimmicks to their names.  (plus technically Templars get Tacticals haha)

[Karack Blackstone]

 

If I may, and, if I need to bow out quickly, by all means, take this post as a blessing to continue either way, if need be...

 

The Statline route is, as noted, unrealistic, long term.

 

Wargear seems a reasonable fix, however, as noted later in the thread, the issue with Astartes of all types is that they are pretty much the same, no matter what. Be they Chaos or Loyal, the single greatest issue with Tac's and equivalents is that, there is so little variation around, in the game.

 

The more I think about this, the more I just like the cheaper/free option to vary the Heavy and Special options idea, the most.

 

However, that said, there is the issue that the final solution must be workable, as well as, fair and balanced, game wise, points wise, and most of all, fun wise.

 

I do like the idea, and agree, the single biggest issue is that the PA C/SM model as a basic Heavy Infantry tabletop model, is far too predictable. I do have an idea to try and vary this up a little, however, the changes would affect so many books as to probably be too much of a drastic change. I will type it up if requested; otherwise, please proceed as normal.

 

I'm definitely Interested, sir!  

 

I agree that statlines are a no go.  Wargear and strategems are the way to go IMO.  I will admit, that I gave little regard to Crusaders, CSM, and Grey Hunters. As I feel they have enough gimmicks to their names.  (plus technically Templars get Tacticals haha)

 

 

Very well, I shall attempt to convey the idea, as best I am able, right now.

 

- Increase Tac/GH/CSM squad size to 12

- Increase weapon options to:

    - 2 Heavy instead of 1, at weapon's cost

    - 2 Special instead of 1, at weapon's cost

- There is, in my hypothetical unit this is based off of, a third option:

    - 2 "Assault Bolters" (In this case, two six-barrel rotary boltguns, belt-fed; each is Salvo 5/3, or, 3/5, 5 stationary, 3 moving, still normal boltgun rounds)

- The squad can choose one of the three following per turn, and change once per turn, between the three listed (must be in cohesion to change, no CP to change, either):

    - Squad/Pack

    - Combat Squads (two 6-man CS's)

    - Fire Teams (three 4-man FT's)

Assuming the full hypothetical unit is available as an example,

- 4 total Special Pistol weapons allowed, per squad (1 on each Special Gunner, 1 on the Sergeant, 1 on a Corporal, or, an equivalent)

- 1 Power Weapon, on a squad member

- 1 Sergeant, as normal, for his options

- Each squad member is able to take a CCW, in this case, likely a Combat Knife

 

All options must be costed, points wise, as well as the cost of the weapons themselves, since the entire issue with Tactical squads is their general lack of options, while having, "some," ish?

 

So, sorry if that is hard to follow. Basically, I think the single biggest issue with Tac's/GH's/CSM units is that with this variation, a 12 man unit with these options seems, on paper, at least, to be a true variable fighting force, and a solid base of operations. My reasoning, for the above? Space Marines are soup-up Navy SEALs. A 12 man squad, that can redefine itself once per turn at no cost, and, has a very nice spread of options, even at the cost of the equipment, might truly make for an actually versatile unit, the basis of the Space Marine force in battle.

 

Constructive criticism welcome; also, please realize, this is an idealized unit structure and options. I don't claim this is balanced, however, I am providing it at another person's request, to try and generate some further ideas, to see if anyone else is able to provide some new direction as to how to proceed.

 

Feedback please.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

Tactical Squad (Codex: Space Marines, Codex: Blood Angels, and Codex: Dark Angels

 

In addition to the Tactical Squad's normal options and upgrades they MUST select ONE of the following Codex Astartes “Tacticas” at no additional cost. These skills and gear are representative of the decades of warfare experience, adherence to the Codex Astartes drilling and training dogma, basic Chapter combat gear available, as well as the tactical utility earned by having served in Scout/Devastator/and Assault companies.

 

• Intervention Tactica

• Warden Tactica

• Gladius Tactica

 

Intervention Tactical Squad (Favored by Dark Angels and Raven Guard)

 

• May replace any model's Boltgun with a Stalker Pattern Boltgun. 1pt. Per model (exact profile as Deathwatch, but no special ammo)

• May replace Special Weapon with Heavy Weapon at 10 models. (Making 2 Heavies possible)

• Receive “Intervention Tactica”. Squad can shoot at enemies that are engaged in combat or within 1” of a friendly unit. Any to hit rolls of 1 are resolved against the closest friendly unit in the engagement with the enemy instead.

 

Warden Tactical Squad (Favored by Imperial Fists, Salamanders, and Iron Hands)

 

• Any model may take a Warden Breaching Shield in addition to their normal kit. 2Pts. Per model. (-1 Movement/Advance/Charge, Reroll armor saves)

• Cannot take Heavy Weapons, but may take an additional Special Weapon at 10 models.

• Receive “Warden Tactica”. Squad may choose to fire all ranged weapons TWICE during the shooting phase. If choosing to fire twice, all shots are resolved at -1 to hit.

 

Gladius Tactical Squad (Favored by Ultramarines, Blood Angels, and White Scars)

 

• Models Receive Astartes Tactical Combat Blades in addition to their normal kit (for free). In close combat, any to hit roll of 6+ generates an additional attack at Str4/AP0/D1. These attacks cannot themselves generate more hits.

• Squad may freely use the Combat Squad Strategem for no CP cost during game.

• Receive the “Gladius Tactica”. Unit may Advance and fire any Rapid Fire/Assault/Pistol/Grenade weapons at -1 to hit.

 

NEW STRATEGEM

 

Tactical Strike – 1 CP

 

Play on any Tactical Squad during the Shooting Phase. Each model in the unit may make 1 additional shot with a ranged weapon. Additionally 1 model per 5 may throw a grenade. (10 man unit can throw 4 grenades technically if close enough). (Does not stack twice with Warden Tactica)

 

On Intervention, I like what I see but the last bullet point I think is extremely un-codex. Firing onto your fellow brethren (even in the grim dark future) would be absolutely heresy. What I would instead change it to {The Intervention Squad can decide to fire their weapons while in combat or at a unit within 1" in the fighting phase, but are the unit suffers -2 to hit (as they arent trying to shoot themselves or their own team mates}. Effectively you can still fire your bolters in rapidfire, and still make use of special and heavy weapons instead of making melee attacks (since marines only have 1 attack, so it would be better to have 2 bolter shots at that hit on a 5+ than to have a single attack that hits on a 3+).

 

On the Warden squad, you could just make they pay for combat shields (instead of adding yet another item in the wargear, and since so many weapons currently reduce the 3+ to a 4+ or 5+, if this was 7th ed rerolling armor save would have been good) to give them a 5+ invul save. I am fine with the -1 to move/advance/charge. I would say the squad can take up to 4 special weapons.

 

Gladius, I would just have the squad equipped with a bolters and chainswords (giving them 2 attacks standard as most people feel that is appropriate). Considering if you are usually taking squads in either 5 or 10, the chance of rolling a 6 for an additional attack is not that great.

As for the Tacica, I would instead make it {After charges have been declared and overwatch resolved, but before the Fight Phase begins, you may use 1 Command Point to have your Gladius squad attack first (even if another special rule would allow another army to attack first, like slaanesh daemons ability) before the charging squad initiates their attacks.

 

As for the Tactical Strike strategem, I dont like it. I dont think its bad, but I would instead go the route where the Sister of Battle have an act of faith ability that if you roll it, it allows 1 squad to immediately shoot all its weapons as if it was the shooting phase. Here is what I would like to see:

 

Tactical Strike - 1 CP

Once per battle round, you may use this strategem. Select 1 tactical unit (intervention, warden, gladius, tactical) and it may fire all of its weapons as if it was the shooting phase at 1 unit in range of its weapons (but cannot select characters unless they are monstrous or the closes unit).

 

This gives you more versatility with ALL of your squads, and makes them feel particularly useful at ANY time. Limiting it to just tactical squads prevents cheese strats with devastator squads (imagine seeing a lascannon squad get to fire its weapons twice in a turn), and allows you to make greater use of your teams.