The Power Armoured Troops thread, take 2: possible fixes

[M@verik115]

 

 

 

But you see, HB's and AC's were never meant to take out power armour anyway.

Source?

 

40K Editions 3-7

 

That is not a valid source.

 

Why not? 

[Wargamer]

I really think the tone of 40k is shifting to make Space Marines "ordinary". They can't just throw away the other factions, but just as the Legionary is the default unit of HH, so too are Marines the default in 40k.

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

 

 

 

But you see, HB's and AC's were never meant to take out power armour anyway.

Source?

40K Editions 3-7

That is not a valid source.

Why not?

Because this is 40k Edition 8.

 

Therefore, what may have been true in past editions no longer applies. Every new edition follows the same rule, just the last few didn't change things as much as this one did.

 

And besides, if heavy bolters weren't meant to take out power armor, explain their presence in 30k. Which is practically nothing BUT power armor.

[M@verik115]

 

 

 

 

 

But you see, HB's and AC's were never meant to take out power armour anyway.

Source?

40K Editions 3-7

That is not a valid source.

Why not?

Because this is 40k Edition 8.

 

Therefore, what may have been true in past editions no longer applies. Every new edition follows the same rule, just the last few didn't change things as much as this one did.

 

And besides, if heavy bolters weren't meant to take out power armor, explain their presence in 30k. Which is practically nothing BUT power armor.

 

Well you see, back in 30K bolter weaponry was invented to be used against, aliens, mutants and less than compliant offshoots of humanity. 

When the legions were equipped with bolters and heavy bolters, they didnt exactly plan on using them against other legions, because that would just be plain heresy... 

 

And then :cuss hit the fan so to speak. 

[Mileposter]

 

 

 

 

But you see, HB's and AC's were never meant to take out power armour anyway.

Source?

 

40K Editions 3-7

 

That is not a valid source.

 

Why not?

 

Because this is a statement of intent, not of fact. If you have data that showcases this intent, or a statement of a designer, then awesome - otherwise when engaging in development you always, always, always, always prove your work.

[Henimann]

Here is an idea, and don't cut my throat before you think about it. Throw the fluff to the wind and think about only the stats

 

Primaris are the new Marines, you can still use your old models but Primaris have taken over. They are now allowed to use any equipment as their predecessors. A "Tactical Primaris Squad" can take their heavy weapon, "Black Templar Primaris Neophyte" can be 15 squad strong, "SW Wolf Guard" Can take melee weapons and shields, "DA Primaris Deathwing" take Terminators. Etc etc. The cost goes up for Space Marines, but we are getting an additional attack and an additional wound. This makes SM more survivable and more offensive. 

 

Not saying this is perfect but it does resolve some of the "lacking of attack" and "lack survivability" that SM run into. Just an idea, and I am curious what more experience players think about it. 

 

 

I think I get what you're saying - and I think that the ideal solution would be somewhere between what you said and KombatWombat suggested.  Having 2 wounds instantly makes the Intercessor outperform his Tactical brother.  Perhaps, if nothing else, give all marines two wounds.   The value of Tacs and other oldmarines goes up considerably, giving them a second lease on life and making them the viable base infantry they should be, while also giving Oldmarines and Primaris the parity in survivability that the fluff would suggest.   Yeah, Cawl gave them three new organs, but they aren't supposed to be so rock hard that they can take double the hits an Oldmarine could. 

[Beams]

Or honestly, why not just do what we suspect games workshop is planning anyway, and just roll tacticals into intercessors. Cut down on the codex bloat (Space Marines have more hqs than some factions have datasheets, which is also true of their heavy support and/or elites.) Do space Marines really need 4 troop options, when most factions get 1-2?

[M@verik115]

 

 

 

 

 

But you see, HB's and AC's were never meant to take out power armour anyway.

Source?

 

40K Editions 3-7

 

That is not a valid source.

 

Why not?

 

Because this is a statement of intent, not of fact. If you have data that showcases this intent, or a statement of a designer, then awesome - otherwise when engaging in development you always, always, always, always prove your work.

 

How about I challenge you find me one bit of lore which states that heavy bolters were designed to penetrate power armour. 

And how about we drop the attitude while we are at it? 

[Deschenus Maximus]

What if oldmarines get 2 wounds and attacks, but Primaris get S and T 5 on top? That would offer a nice progression to Custodes, who are S and T5, but with 3 W.

[M@verik115]

What if oldmarines get 2 wounds and attacks, but Primaris get S and T 5 on top? That would offer a nice progression to Custodes, who are S and T5, but with 3 W.

Custodes are supposed to be quite a bit stronger and tougher than marines. 

While new marines are only supposed to be a tad stronger/tougher than old marines.

[Wargamer]

I could get behind S5 T5 Primaris if there was some kind of penalty lorewise - like, Primaris are Thunder Warrior style creations who burn out really quickly, meaning a "veteran" Primaris probably has less combat experience than a typical Tac Marine because they just don't live long enough to get that good.

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

What if oldmarines get 2 wounds and attacks, but Primaris get S and T 5 on top? That would offer a nice progression to Custodes, who are S and T5, but with 3 W.

Custodes are supposed to be quite a bit stronger and tougher than marines. 

 

 

Source?

[M@verik115]

 

 

What if oldmarines get 2 wounds and attacks, but Primaris get S and T 5 on top? That would offer a nice progression to Custodes, who are S and T5, but with 3 W.

Custodes are supposed to be quite a bit stronger and tougher than marines. 

 

 

Source?

 

 

Depends on the writer. It ranges anywhere from "basically around the same physical ability as a Space Marine, but much better trained and equipped" to "Would give a Primarch a run for his money".

 

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

 

 

What if oldmarines get 2 wounds and attacks, but Primaris get S and T 5 on top? That would offer a nice progression to Custodes, who are S and T5, but with 3 W.

Custodes are supposed to be quite a bit stronger and tougher than marines. 

 

 

Source?

 

 

Depends on the writer. It ranges anywhere from "basically around the same physical ability as a Space Marine, but much better trained and equipped" to "Would give a Primarch a run for his money".

 

 

 

So it's not really out of the realm of the realistic that what I propose would be somewhat reflective of the fluff.

 

[Karack Blackstone]

I think it was Jarl who typed it up first.

As a thought, 3 W and 3 A base Prmaris, still at S 4, T 4, would become Lite Custodes. If the orginal idea is kept, then Primaris remain the same.

Cawl again somehow makes a mini-Primaris set of implants that get normal Marines up to Primaris stats, and the points change in cost. Suddenly, Tac’s, Intercessors, Scouts, and what not just allow different model sizes, and close to similar wargear options. As the original idea seemed to go for, roll Tac’s and Intercessors into a single unit, allowing Tac’s the more specialized boltgun types, and Intercessor to get any combination of up to 2 Heavy or 2 Special Ranged guns, or, 1 and 1 as right now.

If this change is fluffed out correctly, this makes pretty solid play and fluff sense, depending on the final result. If C/SM can take either a combat Knife or Chainsword, then they suddenly becaome a much greater force on the tabletop. The only concern I have is the points costing for Primaris seems high, but, I am not GW.

 

Edit:

 

I will add, that I am debating making a post on the Facebook Warhammer 40,000 page, with the following idea as one of the two I will type up:

 

"Hello GW,

 

Please consider the following as food for thought: Cawl invents a mini-Primaris set of implants that improve the normal Space Marines, granting them the same Attacks and Wounds characteristics as Primaris. Through this, no models will ever be invalidated, points can adjust as needed, be the final cost 16 or 18 points per model, and, when the likely event of Primaris and other Space Marines fall to Chaos, or, Fabius Bile figures this one out too, Chaos gets the same treatment, too."

 

Or, something to that effect; I really like this idea, and if I may, the concept of keeping the Primaris where they are, and boosting normal Marines to become just miniature model-wise Primaris, seems the best long term solution, as far as the options go thus far. Wargear can be handwaved; rifling can very easily increase range when done right, let alone making the miniature specialized boltgun types for the new mini-Primaris would be relatively simple down that path.

 

So, if it needs to be typed up, my second point in the planned WH40K FB post is, Chaos needs some new model loving, to say it. I play Space Wolves, and have no plans to ever play Chaos. That said, Chaos really needs to get some new model sculpts, especially with the overall improvements the Loyalist range of Marines has gotten over the past few editions, starting with 5th Ed.

 

Thoughts please? More on number one, the stuff in quotes.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Karack Blackstone

[Schlitzaf]

Some honest food for thought; Leave Tacticals as they are, move Assault Marines to Troop Slot. And make them fast attack if they pack up. Half the issues with Tacticals it appears is that they aren’t Assault Marines. This leaves Armies defined by their Tactical+ Units (Wolves and Templars notably) unaffected and thus unneeded to be rebalanced. Assault Marines are about as efficient as Crusader and Hunts lacking either in output (Wolves +1 Bolter Attack per Model and +3 Plasma) or body count (Crusaders have 4-5 more men). Of course this still leaves Chaos Marines and Tacticals in a medicore situation. But it would fix some of the issues at hand.

 

But for all this talk on Tacticals, Chaos Marines aren’t much better how could they be fixed?

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

Some honest food for thought; Leave Tacticals as they are, move Assault Marines to Troop Slot. And make them fast attack if they pack up. Half the issues with Tacticals it appears is that they aren’t Assault Marines. This leaves Armies defined by their Tactical+ Units (Wolves and Templars notably) unaffected and thus unneeded to be rebalanced. Assault Marines are about as efficient as Crusader and Hunts lacking either in output (Wolves +1 Bolter Attack per Model and +3 Plasma) or body count (Crusaders have 4-5 more men). Of course this still leaves Chaos Marines and Tacticals in a medicore situation. But it would fix some of the issues at hand.

 

But for all this talk on Tacticals, Chaos Marines aren’t much better how could they be fixed?

Fixing tacticals on the imperial side fixes tacticals on the chaos side, you just replicate the changes since chaos marines are literally just marines with spikey bits.

 

The question on fixing tacticals is on the how. The least game breaking is changing some of the loadouts (like giving out chainswords or giving out new variants of bolters like assault bolters and making stalker pattern an standardequipment option like the deathwatch get). Also making standard assault marines a troop choice, but leaving vanguard and sternguard as elite options keeps them from overlapping too much. You just replicate these changes over to the chaos side. Maybe make possessed marines (with wings) equivalent of vanguard marines.

[Karack Blackstone]

Some honest food for thought; Leave Tacticals as they are, move Assault Marines to Troop Slot. And make them fast attack if they pack up. Half the issues with Tacticals it appears is that they aren’t Assault Marines. This leaves Armies defined by their Tactical+ Units (Wolves and Templars notably) unaffected and thus unneeded to be rebalanced. Assault Marines are about as efficient as Crusader and Hunts lacking either in output (Wolves +1 Bolter Attack per Model and +3 Plasma) or body count (Crusaders have 4-5 more men). Of course this still leaves Chaos Marines and Tacticals in a medicore situation. But it would fix some of the issues at hand.

 

But for all this talk on Tacticals, Chaos Marines aren’t much better how could they be fixed?

 

Chaos Marines and Tactical Squads both need a from-scratch rethinking it seems, to me.

 

The problem is, if C/SM squads both go to the 2 Heavy, or 2 Special, or 1 and 1 of each, the cheaper options for taking a pair of the same thing would possibly work. The other major issue is that, for Chaos, the idea long term from my perspective is that, given time and the chance, Fabius Bile makes CSM equivalents to the proposed improved mini-Primaris, A.K.A., normal Marines. If both sides of the Chaos and Loyalist Marine spectrum goes this route, the core problem with Tac's and the Chaos version is their all-rounder build approach.

 

The issue with a total rethink of the game is that, even with the proposed improvement to both Loyalist and Chaos Marines, other armies would want a new toy too. That then leads to a question of, what, if anything, and there would need to be something, would they get, to keep things new and fresh for all armies?

 

I personally think that if the following were the plan, which, to type it, it might not be, here's a few ideas to consider:

 

- 16 ppm for normal Marines and Primaris

- The listed 2 Heavy, or 2 Special, or 1 and 1, the current normal option

- Maybe consider allowing 2 Special AND 2 Heavy, just requiring a pair of the same weapons, or, for some points cost, the option to change it up a bit?

- I personally like the idea of 12 man Tac/GH/CSM/Crusader squads, however, Rhinos can be shoehorned in the rules; Drop pods, likely not so much (Edit; I'm wrong, if Rhinos can do it, so can Drop Pods; the question is just how to do it right.)

- The option to take either a Combat Knife or a Chainsword, with the CS being AP -1, and likely costing 1 point, this would help immensely with the lackluster C/SM melee ability

- If the basic boltgun might make sense with the following profile changes, choose one per time shooting: Assault 1, or, Rapid Fire 1, or, Heavy 3, would that help too?

 

I guess to type it here, all of the proposed changes thus far need a Chaos equivalent application as well. No one should have a lackluster army; and, it seems, that for some reason, all variants of regular Marines end up there anyway, due to the need to not have them be too good. The issue is, not too good is proving to be not good enough...

 

Edit: I'm wrong on Drop Pods, made a note and comment as such.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Karack Blackstone

[Schlitzaf]

Giving Chainswords steps on the toes of Crusaders/GreyHunters and less extent Chaos Marines. The former two have chainswords and give up significant parts of the Marine army list to utilize them. Or have lackluster rules in comparison for access to Tactical+ Units.

 

I still don’t get why everyone insisting on revamping Tacticals entirely. We already have Tactical Equivalents that showcase how to make competitive/viable Tactical Squad that isn’t just adding a billion rules. Both Hunters and Crusaders work (and Assault Squads) work because they aren’t just Squads. They little rule gimmicks that improve their firepower, Hunters have Bolter/Chain, Dbl Sgt, 2.5 Specials and extra CT, Crusaders have Neophytes to reduce points, never pay Bolter Tax (range setup has bolters while firefight chain), and can replace heavy with a firefight weapon (PowWeapon), while able to leverage MSU for backfield. These aren’t complete redesigns on the tactical concept they are taking a core and adding that fits army theme (Wolves are heavy focused on firefighting and gritty, while Templars are defined by their fluidity in engagement because they rejected the Codex Astartes).

 

Both units lose something, Hunters Lose ability to backfield, and Crusaders cannot switch roles mid battlefield. And neither can combat Squad. Tacticals are supposed to be able to answer any battlefield threat their inability to is why they suffer. Combat Squading nominally helps. And Chaos Marines having most flexible list construction (avoiding Bolter Tax, Marks and 2 Special or Heavy) even vs Crusader Squad. Something for the latter two falls short. What is it?

Edited January 23, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[Karack Blackstone]

Giving Chainswords steps on the toes of Crusaders/GreyHunters and less extent Chaos Marines. The former two have chainswords and give up significant parts of the Marine army list to utilize them. Or have lackluster rules in comparison for access to Tactical+ Units

 

I would say, given the option, roll the situation into all get all of the options involved; as in, Crusaders and Grey Hunters gain access to the regular SM Tactical options, while the SM Tac's gain access to either Combat Knives or Chainswords, with either the current profiles of each, and, if allowed, for +1 point, chainswords become AP -1 across the board, in all Codex books.

[The Unseen]

Giving Chainswords steps on the toes of Crusaders/GreyHunters and less extent Chaos Marines. The former two have chainswords and give up significant parts of the Marine army list to utilize them. Or have lackluster rules in comparison for access to Tactical+ Units

You keep ragging on this, and it doesn't matter.

The distinction that only these specific factions get tactical equivalents that have cc weapons was stupid when it was implemented, and it's still stupid now.

So maybe instead come up with ways to make those units unique for those factions instead of thinking GW's lazy decision to make them unique by giving them something all marine troops should have.

As in, follow the OP, and start talking fixes.

[Karack Blackstone]

Actually, Assault Marines as Troops without Jump Packs and Fast Attack with could present a rather interesting concept: wargear changes the battlefield role, and, therefore, the FOC slot the unit is considered, once the different gear is taken.

 

Put another way, that actually presents a different, yet powerful option: Assault Marines pouring out of a Rhino with Bolt Pistols and Chainswords could be useful, at times. Giving the unit Jump Packs changes them into a Fast Attack slot, due to their improved mobility; the rub would be in the Space Wolves, as, Blood Claws do the same thing, just, are a separate unit designation when given Jump Packs.

 

Hm; this could prove interesting, the equivalent to Grey Hunters with Jump Packs, just without the bonus Attack on the charge that Blood Claws have, armed with Bolt Pistols and Chainswords, for a a small points cost increase, could prove a very intriguing option, as well. I do like this idea, at least as far as gear changing a unit's FOC slot; the old rules of, some HQ changes the unit to another entry, either as an option or as a mandatory thing, was a little too powerful, although in concept a solid idea.

 

What might an Intercessor Tactical squad best have, as far as options go?

 

What would be cool to have as a Tactical Intercessor squad, also for its options?

[The Unseen]

Assault marines sans jump packs are just worse tacticals.

No special weapons other than flamers, which aren't good right now, and instead of 1 str4 shot at 24" or 2 str4 shots at 12" and 1 str4 attack in melee per dude, you get 1 str4 shot at 12" and 2 in melee.

Melee attacks are worse than a shooting attack if they have the same profile.

 

There's a reason people aren't running assault marinew this edition, they're worse in combat than tacticals are shooting, and don't give you CP.

 

You could maybe make the argument for BA assault marines sans packs if they were troops, as they get melta and plasma options, and their melee attacks are a little better than stock bolter shots.

But it'd be pretty close.

 

And if you wanted to roll all the tactical variants and intercessors together?

Easy, 2 wounds, 2 attacks, chainsword/combat knife, heavy bolt pistol, bolt rifle, 1 special or heavy per 5 men, can trade the bolt rifle for the 2 variant ones for free/small points cost.

Edited January 23, 2018 by The Unseen

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

Assault marines sans jump packs are just worse tacticals.

No special weapons other than flamers, which aren't good right now, and instead of 1 str4 shot at 24" or 2 str4 shots at 12" and 1 str4 attack in melee per dude, you get 1 str4 shot at 12" and 2 in melee.

Melee attacks are worse than a shooting attack if they have the same profile.

 

There's a reason people aren't running assault marinew this edition, they're worse in combat than tacticals are shooting, and don't give you CP.

 

You could maybe make the argument for BA assault marines sans packs if they were troops, as they get melta and plasma options, and their melee attacks are a little better than stock bolter shots.

But it'd be pretty close.

 

And if you wanted to roll all the tactical variants and intercessors together?

Easy, 2 wounds, 2 attacks, chainsword/combat knife, heavy bolt pistol, bolt rifle, 1 special or heavy per 5 men, can trade the bolt rifle for the 2 variant ones for free/small points cost.

I run assault marines, I just dont use them like I use tacticals. Assault marines in this edition are for grabbing objectives (if you are playing that mode) or tying up gun squads in melee and/or being charge bait to keep your gunners/tanks alive.

 

Just like I use Land Raiders as heavy tanks, not as troop carriers this edition. Being able to deep strike terminators or assault marines and not having to worry about scatter has made deep-striking superior than trying to load them up in a vehicle and hope it can get across the field if you can help it.

 

This edition is a massive paradigm change to the way you approach the game. Landspeeders can charge and fight in melee (not the perfect option but it can prevent units from shooting and prevent your landspeeders from getting shot out from under you if your opponent doesnt fall back).

 

Making assault marines (without packs) a standard troop, and being able to load them up in a stormraven or rhino/razorback and tie up gun squads (like guard, tau or hormagaunts) can be really useful. Even charging tanks (forcing them to fall back in their turn and not be able to shoot) is a viable tactic with assault marines, and strapping them with melta bombs and be a real threat to monstrous creatures and tanks. Its at least a better option then only being stuck with tactical marines with their 1 bolter shot, 1 special weapon and 1 heavy weapons.

[The Unseen]

Scouts do all the things you take assault marines for, for fewer points while also giving you cp.

 

Not to mention, for a tiny price increase, you can take vanguard vets and actually kill something while your tying it up in melee.

Because intelligent opponents won't let you just run all over the place with a few MEQ units and tie up all their heavy hitters.

 

Hell, even landspeeders do a better job than assault marines, because they can fall back and shoot twin heavy flamers, while being tougher than assault marines, for around the same price.

 

Saying "I take X unit and I still win" isn't an argument, It's an anecdote.