Any evidence that 30K SM were better quality...

[b1soul]

...than 40K SM (right before Guilliman's return)?

 

I'm not talking about the loss of organs. I'm talking about reduced strength, speed, stamina, resilience...that sort of thing

[Kasper_Hawser]

No evidence I think, apart from somewhat easier or speedier process of creating/replenishing new marines with legion numbers, due to access to their primarch at the time. Otherwise, an Ultramarine of 30K would be no different from 40K.

[M@verik115]

Well according to the dark imperium fluff, guilliman stated that the current marine crop paled in comparison physically to their legionnaire ancestors. 
On the other hand due to their structure they were a lot better trained and conditioned so it evened out mostly. 

[SpecialIssue]

Well according to the dark imperium fluff, guilliman stated that the current marine crop paled in comparison physically to their legionnaire ancestors. 

On the other hand due to their structure they were a lot better trained and conditioned so it evened out mostly. 

 

What passage/book is that under? I don't recall that at all

[Laughingman]

I "assumed" they had lower standards for recruits in the 31st, given the vast volume of legionaries created in a relatively shot period of time.

The average relative experience of individual legionaries was likely lower as well, i.e veterans had decades of experience in the great Crusade era, not hundreds of years.  

[Perry]

I "assumed" they had lower standards for recruits in the 31st, given the vast volume of legionaries created in a relatively shot period of time.

The average relative experience of individual legionaries was likely lower as well, i.e veterans had decades of experience in the great Crusade era, not hundreds of years.

The older marines would have seen 100ish years experience in the crusade, with pretty much non stop fighting across that period, the crusade was very intense.

 

There are many stories where Chaos marines taunt 40k Astartes claiming they are weaker than crusade era Astartes, but that could just be pride or arrogance.

[Kasper_Hawser]

If the Crusade era marines were stronger, than there should be no reason for Chaos Space Marines to lose to Space Marines, considering most of them are from the original batch (barring renegade chapters), more so when they have MILLENIA of experience plus whatever daemonic gifts they have.

 

Yet we still hear a lot about normal space marines outsmarting or outfighting CSM. Even the Primaris who are practically newborn babes can give them a beating.

[slitth]

Given that many thing have become ridiculous ritualistic in the 40K, I would not be surprised if a lot of defects have be introduced in the creation process of an Adeptus Astartes.

And it would not be unreasonable to claim that some of the active Astartes from the 40k period would never have be given the chance to be promoted to full Astartes status during the Great Crusade.

 

And I would also expect some of the 40k chaos space marine would be considered unfit for front-line service if viewed from Great Crusade standards.

Just consider how Iacton Qruze was viewed during the Great Crusade.

 

That being said I would expect most of the 40K period Astartes would be able to match the standards of the Great Crusade.

But moist would probably just be rank and file as long as they lived.

[Kizzdougs]

If the Crusade era marines were stronger, than there should be no reason for Chaos Space Marines to lose to Space Marines, considering most of them are from the original batch (barring renegade chapters), more so when they have MILLENIA of experience plus whatever daemonic gifts they have.

 

Yet we still hear a lot about normal space marines outsmarting or outfighting CSM. Even the Primaris who are practically newborn babes can give them a beating.

You don't think that that might have something to do with the fact that the goods always have to win? :P 

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

If the Crusade era marines were stronger, than there should be no reason for Chaos Space Marines to lose to Space Marines, considering most of them are from the original batch (barring renegade chapters), more so when they have MILLENIA of experience plus whatever daemonic gifts they have.

 

Yet we still hear a lot about normal space marines outsmarting or outfighting CSM. Even the Primaris who are practically newborn babes can give them a beating.

You don't think that that might have something to do with the fact that the goods always have to win?

 

 

LOL, GW wouldn't know "good" if it was painted in Ultramarine blue. Besides, nearly every "good" story in the end has a grimdark caveat in them with few exceptions. Biggest example is Grey Knights, yes they win many battles against Daemons, but in the process slaughtering every poor soul who isn't inquisition for light years around.

 

Personally, back to OP, I don't think there is any difference apart from the few degraded organs a few chapters suffer from. Meaning in an arm wrestling or shootout contest, there is no reason why a Legionaire will be different a Company Battle Brother. 

 

Mentality is another thing though. We also have to take into account chapter vs legion art of war. 40K chapters were built around small and elite Rapid Reaction forces, while 30K Legions themselves directed huge theatres of war by themselves. Hence the current MSU approach most of us who game will use in building army lists. So a Legionaire expects and knows how to operate in a massive push, whereas 40K chapters rarely field themselves in forces, at the best, only strike forces represented by the decurions forces in 7th. Only extreme circumstances like Hive Fleet Behemoth or Baal Devastation would warrant the whole chapter and their cousins to deploy togther.

[b1soul]

@ M@verik115

 

Could you provide the quote?

[M@verik115]

 

Well according to the dark imperium fluff, guilliman stated that the current marine crop paled in comparison physically to their legionnaire ancestors. 

On the other hand due to their structure they were a lot better trained and conditioned so it evened out mostly. 

 

What passage/book is that under? I don't recall that at all

 

I really cannot tell you. 

It was either the gathering storm 3, or the dark imperium novel. 

The crux of it was, that guilliman couldn't recognize those who bore his iconography (and how weak they seemed), obviously 30K marines were physically superior, but during the campaign he came to understand that their structure more than made up for their physical deterioration as the 30K structure was too rigid and 40K marines had to make do with what was available to them, thus 40K marines are better trained and more tactically flexible.

 

I will try find it for you guys. 

Edited January 17, 2018 by M@verik115

[Leif Bearclaw]

If the Crusade era marines were stronger, than there should be no reason for Chaos Space Marines to lose to Space Marines, considering most of them are from the original batch (barring renegade chapters), more so when they have MILLENIA of experience plus whatever daemonic gifts they have.

 

 

Actually, this is something of a misnomer (admittedly propagated by a fair chunk of CSM fans, who understandably like the '10k Long War Vet' angle.) Remember what the Traitor Legions have gone through. The devastating wars of the Heresy and Scouring followed by the breakup of the Legions, civil war, and general life in conflict ridden hellscapes, plus actually raiding and fighting the Imperium and Xenos in rela space. Just look at what 200 odd years sidereal did to the NL 10th Company, they were already virtually combat ineffective and only survived to the end of that Trilogy by combining with another warband.

 

Really, there should be precious few Heresy vets left in the ranks of the Chaos Marines, and most of those should really be Lords rather than grunts by now. The need to recruit fresh Marines is a major theme in a lot of Chaos stories (there's actaully a really good short about a meeting between Lords, and only one of them is a Heresy vet, the others taking almost a 'dww, look at the Grandpa', type approach to him). They're certainly not coasting on Heresy survivors. Given the nature of life as a CSM vs an Imperial Marine, I'd actually expect the majority of Chaos Marines to be worse, with less combat experience, than their Imperial rivals.

 

[Calas Typhon]

One of the main problems with the Legion successors in 40k, including the Chaos side, is that the Geneseed of all Legions are corrupted or degenerated to the point that they are unsuitable or watered down by the 41st millennium with no access to create new stock in its previous form because the Primarchs are gone or Daemons. Daemon Primarchs I would presume cannot produce geneseed as was previously done anyway due to the change of their structure, I doubt there is anything to back this up, but It seems to be a relatively sane jump. Chaos Legions always mention that the new space marines always pale in comparison, its something I would imagine to be correct. 

 

Astartes in 40k Chapters are highly trained from 10k years of constant warfare around a tried and tested guide book which can be filled in with better and new strategy. Even as a new recruit, you would learn all of this in a matter of a few years. Chaos do not really have this I would presume as the majority spend their time in the Warp and with the time differences, I could imagine your bog standard Chaos Legionary is not going to have all of that Knowledge at his back. To balance this, Chaos have various powers through Chaos, including transformations to benefit them, abilities like warp jumping and the ability to shrug off punishing damage like the Death Guard, as well as somewhat better equipment and Vehicular technology. 

 

That is something that ties into the difference between 40k factions and the difference between 30k and 40k astartes. 30K has a lot better equipment, weapons and tanks. 

I imagine that there are a lot more Terminators in the Chaos Legions than 40k Space Marines too.

[Marshal Rohr]

It used to make mention that geneseed is only partially effective without transfusions of blood from a Primarch, which only the blood angels possessed (hence their ability to make marines in a year) by 40k. This may have changed

[Brother Heinrich]

It used to make mention that geneseed is only partially effective without transfusions of blood from a Primarch, which only the blood angels possessed (hence their ability to make marines in a year) by 40k. This may have changed

And even that was watered down since his blood had been infused in the veins of the Sanguinary Priests. I have no concrete evidence, but I basically always got the impression that much like the Thunder Warriors to the Legions, the Legions were stronger, better built, and better equipped, but they were also a mass produced entity (relative term obviously) that suffered from lower or non-existant psychological conditioning and a battlefield role that saw them die in huge numbers. 

 

Astartes of the 41st millennium have more genetic flaws, but it seems like the selection, training and definitely the conditioning make up for what they may lack in resources and genetic stability/purity. At the end of the day however you also have to remember that the only reason Astartes Chapters can go toe to toe with Legion Vets is that the legions are shattered remnants with equally massive problems when it comes to resources, training, and genetic viability.

 

Also remember that Legionnaires were shock troops, they were built to march face-first into the teeth of the most savage alien empires of the great crusade. Space Marine Chapters are special forces detachments that execute precision strikes and end conflicts before they start. 

 

Long story short, its almost Apples to Oranges. But yes if you took a space Marine Chapter and told it to conduct operations in the same manner as a legion Battalion, well the battalion might suffer horrid losses, but the Chapter would die out. Different times, different Marines.

[Walter Payton]

If the Crusade era marines were stronger, than there should be no reason for Chaos Space Marines to lose to Space Marines, considering most of them are from the original batch (barring renegade chapters), more so when they have MILLENIA of experience plus whatever daemonic gifts they have.

 

Yet we still hear a lot about normal space marines outsmarting or outfighting CSM. Even the Primaris who are practically newborn babes can give them a beating.

 

 

There are two obvious reasons.

 

1. Loyalist Marines live lives of intense structure and asceticism.  They are either training or fighting constantly.  They get 15 minutes of free time a day, if their chapter master is soft.  CSM, by contrast, do whatever the heck they want - that might include training intensely, but it probably also includes a fair amount of self-indulgence and scheming.  Also avoiding having their soul eaten by daemons, because they live in hell.  

 

2. Loyalists aspire to build espirit de corps and a team ethos, whereas CSM are constantly backstabbing and intriguing (nothing is sacred, even loyalty to your brothers) even the more "honourable" CSM warbands love themselves some "honor duels" to decide the leader of the warband.  

[Scribe]

If the Crusade era marines were stronger, than there should be no reason for Chaos Space Marines to lose to Space Marines, considering most of them are from the original batch (barring renegade chapters), more so when they have MILLENIA of experience plus whatever daemonic gifts they have.

 

Yet we still hear a lot about normal space marines outsmarting or outfighting CSM. Even the Primaris who are practically newborn babes can give them a beating.

 

Thats simply due to factional bias. I mean seriously now...

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

If the Crusade era marines were stronger, than there should be no reason for Chaos Space Marines to lose to Space Marines, considering most of them are from the original batch (barring renegade chapters), more so when they have MILLENIA of experience plus whatever daemonic gifts they have.

 

 

Actually, this is something of a misnomer (admittedly propagated by a fair chunk of CSM fans, who understandably like the '10k Long War Vet' angle.) Remember what the Traitor Legions have gone through. The devastating wars of the Heresy and Scouring followed by the breakup of the Legions, civil war, and general life in conflict ridden hellscapes, plus actually raiding and fighting the Imperium and Xenos in rela space. Just look at what 200 odd years sidereal did to the NL 10th Company, they were already virtually combat ineffective and only survived to the end of that Trilogy by combining with another warband.

 

Really, there should be precious few Heresy vets left in the ranks of the Chaos Marines, and most of those should really be Lords rather than grunts by now. The need to recruit fresh Marines is a major theme in a lot of Chaos stories (there's actaully a really good short about a meeting between Lords, and only one of them is a Heresy vet, the others taking almost a 'dww, look at the Grandpa', type approach to him). They're certainly not coasting on Heresy survivors. Given the nature of life as a CSM vs an Imperial Marine, I'd actually expect the majority of Chaos Marines to be worse, with less combat experience, than their Imperial rivals.

 

 

You have a good point, duly noted. I sorta assume that if your name belongs to one of the original legions, you ARE 10,000 years old. didn't occur to me that even the original Legions would have recruited and replenished their numbers over the years, either with stolen geneseed or through the craziness of their mad scientists like Honsou and Fabius Bile. So not all of them would be, as you say, veterans of the long war of 10K years

 

 

 

If the Crusade era marines were stronger, than there should be no reason for Chaos Space Marines to lose to Space Marines, considering most of them are from the original batch (barring renegade chapters), more so when they have MILLENIA of experience plus whatever daemonic gifts they have.

 

Yet we still hear a lot about normal space marines outsmarting or outfighting CSM. Even the Primaris who are practically newborn babes can give them a beating.

 

 

There are two obvious reasons.

 

1. Loyalist Marines live lives of intense structure and asceticism.  They are either training or fighting constantly.  They get 15 minutes of free time a day, if their chapter master is soft.  CSM, by contrast, do whatever the heck they want - that might include training intensely, but it probably also includes a fair amount of self-indulgence and scheming.  Also avoiding having their soul eaten by daemons, because they live in hell.  

 

2. Loyalists aspire to build espirit de corps and a team ethos, whereas CSM are constantly backstabbing and intriguing (nothing is sacred, even loyalty to your brothers) even the more "honourable" CSM warbands love themselves some "honor duels" to decide the leader of the warband.  

 

 

Again, duly noted. Even if they are 10K years old, 10K years of backstabbing and warp shenanigans would either make you a gibbering idiot marine, or an army of Darth Vaders all vying with each other ALL THE TIME, even if you are one of the more disciplined legions. Compared to the younger and more structured/disciplned Codex marines, yeah, makes sense now for "younger" marines to actually be able to counter the older, crazier marines.

 

@ Scribe - Please keep this civil and try to explain from fluff point of view. Yes we all know GW is (somewhat) biased towards Space Marines, so no need to bark up a tree which everyone else already knows is a bad tree.

 

Also need to note that even if they die, potentially many of them are able to be resurrected. Whether they can do so with all their memories, experience, even bodily appendages intact is a different matter of course. This is where the potential to obtain millenia of experience also comes to mind.

 

So for the body guards of the daemon primarchs, like the Sekhmet terminators or Deathshroud, should be no reason to believe they are truly 10K years old and outclass even elite SMs. Thankfully they are few in number.

[The Unseen]

Nothing, in any publication I'm aware of, lends actual credence to the idea that marines in 40k are somehow weaker than their 30k ancestors.

The only "in universe" example of this are from chaos space marines deriding loyalists as "thin bloods", which is such a thin foundation for this argument its almost laughable. Of course they deride the loyalists any way they can, of course they throw insults like "back in my day" around. Their, like, the bad guys in the setting, and anything they say to be true is immediately suspect, considering the first word in their name. Because people who've lived in, and worship, the embodiments of chaos, disorder, and deceit are totally trustworthy individuals who only speak objective truth.

 

Bleh.

I don't know where people got this idea that marines are physically worse than before, but I wish it would go and die forgotten in a corner where it belongs.

 

The geneseed is in some chapters degraded, leading to a lack of specific organs for that genetic line, and the cultivation process is slowed without access to Primarchs; but the quality of recruits has INCREASED, not decreased, as the screening process has become much more elaborate and exacting, the better to wean out the weaknesses that lead to the heresy in the first place, since now chapters only have to maintain 1,000 marines, not 100,000+ during a time when marine casualties were enormous. Now the burden of meat grinder warfare is left to the guard, and the marines dont get sent en masse to die.

 

And the Blood Angels example, they still have a small fraction of Sanguinius' blood to use in the creation process, and it's hinted at heavily that mutations in the geneseed have exacerbated the flaws in it, but those flaws have always been there, and the marines aren't described as physically weaker, they just have an ever more rampant bloodlust, and a predilection for suffering psychic visions of their dead demi-god father. Said visions happen to give their sufferer vastly increased strength, ferocity, and (temporary) durability, at the cost of sanity. Kinda the opposite of "physically weaker".

 

And for those saying the ritualization of the process has made it worse, I would contend that the fact that they have ritualized it is the only reason it still works today. People don't read the instructions on how to assemble their furniture on the daily. But how many priests do you think just decide to change sacred ceremonies that have been passed down for 10,000 on a whim, especially when heresy is punishable by summary execution?

[Scribe]

Clearly not everyone knows of the tree? If the fluff is biased (and it is) because GW is biased (and since loyalist SM sell best, they are) of course the majority of the fluff will back the opinion that despite reasons to feel otherwise loyalist SM get the better of their opponents.

 

Good authors stack the deck so the CSM don't look too bad, but call it what it is.

 

Without malice, it's GW factional bias, nothing more.

[chamberlainskeksil]

In the Horus Heresy novel Thousand Sons, there's a brief description of some custodes that mentions that they are the same height as the astartes near them.  I was listening to the audiobook, so I don't have a page number, but it was towards the back.

[Corswain]

There’s also a lot of “thin-blooded” insults from Traitor Legions. Not really evidence but it does seem to be a consistent theme.

[Amun Ra]

There’s also a lot of “thin-blooded” insults from Traitor Legions. Not really evidence but it does seem to be a consistent theme.

Yep. Makes sense as well that degradation could occur over such a period of time. That's normally quoted by guys around at the time of the crusade rather than the like of Huron and other renegades.

 

Loyalists have other advantages though, hypno conditioning(know no fear), organisation structures, all working to one goal rather than their CSM counterparts, equipment is looked after and resupplied better.

[Baluc]

Scribe the form of your arguments are poor. Nothing you have presented is causal. It is at best a weak inductive which is basically an opinion presented as fact.

 

Ignoring the underlying reasons that sm sell well, making a leap as to the motivations of contract authors, and making judgements about truthfullness of the universe through the eyes of people in universe you think are inaccurate or mistaken. There are at least two logical fallacies in your argument.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Baluc