How many Lasguns do Heavy Weapons Teams have?

[Private Jenkins]

In infantry squads, it says two Guardsmen can form a Heavy Weapons Team. Do they keep both their Lasguns, or only have one? I've seen it played both ways, and I'm not aware of any FAQ on the matter.

[Spyboy]

This is a pretty big debate. I don't think anyone knows for sure how many they have, I have seen arguments for 1, 2, and 0. Personally I think they should have 1, but no rules supporting any of it I believe.

[Ranulf]

I've always played it as one Lasgun and one heavy weapon per HW team. Most people I've seen play it the same, but the debate has been there since HW teams were introduced in 2nd Ed. 

 

You can only really argue for 1 or 0. Either the guardsman acting as the loader/spotter can fire his Lasgun or he can't. 

[Inso]

It all hinges on your understanding of what 'model' means. 

 

In the heavy weapon squads, each base (with 2 troops and a HW) is called a model... and that only has one lasgun and frag grenades.

 

In the infantry squad, it says 2 infantry can form a team and must take a heavy weapon... but it doesn't say anything about whether one of them loses a lasgun or not.

 

If you go to previous editions, the heavy weapon is an addition so the troopers keep their lasguns.

 

Yep... it's a perfect question for an FAQ :) 

[ImperialSquishiness]

As far as I was aware the rule let's models use all heavy, assault, rapid fire weapons or all Pistol weapons but not both.

As far as HW teams go, the gunner has swapped out his Lasgun for a big gun and the other dude can still shoot,

[Withershadow]

Rules as written, heavy weapon squads have a lasgun for the loaders, while squad heavy weapons don't have any (because they form a "heavy weapon team armed with <>" with no mention of a lasgun).  However, everyone I've seen allows the loader to get his one shot off.  Didn't the FAQ mention something about this?  I don't have access to it at the moment.

 

The only argument that is objectively wrong is the one that says they have 2 lasguns.  You don't get to bring the equipment handed to guardsmen when you form a heavy weapon team, because they are technically no longer guardsmen but a "heavy weapon team", and thus a different unit entirely.

[Halfpint100]

The heavy weapon Base is one model. Each model in an infantry squad gets a lasgun and frag grenades, then adds a heavy weapon on top of that. Resulting in 1 Las gun, frag grenades and the heavy weapon

[Hatarus]

I see it as one the Lasgun is held by the spotter while the gunner uses the actual heavy weapon 

[Inso]

Here's something to think about... why are there two lasguns on the Cadian heavy weapon sprue (for a two man team)?... 

 

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/sprues/showphoto.php?photo=847&title=heavy-weapons-team-body-back&cat=889

[Shamansky]

Let's consider only what codex sais about HWT gear. No fantasy, no imagination, you're in the Guard soldiers, and we've got rules to follow here. 'Heavy Weapons Squad... This unit contains 3 Heavy Weapons Teams. Each model is armed with a lasgun and frag grenades... Each model must take an item from the Heavy Weapons list.' As we know a HWT is a ONE model made of two Guardsmen, so it is ONE lasgun and one heavy weapon per HWT. 

[duz_]

Here's something to think about... why are there two lasguns on the Cadian heavy weapon sprue (for a two man team)?...

 

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/sprues/showphoto.php?photo=847&title=heavy-weapons-team-body-back&cat=889

Does that mean my Mordians have laspistols on their HWTs? :D I wonder if I can upgrade it to a plasma pistol...

 

 

On a serious note. I think we've covered it here. Any more can goto the Rules forum.

[Scurrae]

Salutation,

"two guards may form a heavy weapon squad..."

If you could have two lasgun or non, what would be the point of those words ?

I don't know... but I have an idea for the reason of following words : it's probably cause HWS options are for model from this unit and not something like "any heavy weapon team can/must take..."

 

 

(for order purpose, playing with SWS and HWS always better than infantry... IMO)

 

edit : ... I said IMO but actually it's mathematical...

[Zuri Prime]

Let's consider only what codex sais about HWT gear. No fantasy, no imagination, you're in the Guard soldiers, and we've got rules to follow here. 'Heavy Weapons Squad... This unit contains 3 Heavy Weapons Teams. Each model is armed with a lasgun and frag grenades... Each model must take an item from the Heavy Weapons list.' As we know a HWT is a ONE model made of two Guardsmen, so it is ONE lasgun and one heavy weapon per HWT.

This right here. Each team has a lasgun and a heavy weapon, it's not up for debate if the unit entry clearly states what it has available to shoot.

[Withershadow]

Again, the debate stems from squads that can take heavy weapon teams but are not a Heavy Weapon Squad, because that profile isn’t listed. It just says two Guardsmen combine to form a heavy weapon team which must take a heavy weapon. So then the debate becomes whether the Guardsmen get to keep their equipment (and so have 2 lasguns) or not (and so have 0 lasguns).

 

Yes, 1 lasgun per team is the most logical, consistent, realistic and reasonable option, and I’m glad people agree, but it is not explicit in the ruleset.

[Shamansky]

...but it is not explicit in the ruleset.

That's why i'd include one Heavy Bronze Candelabrum into standard guardsmen kit

[Scurrae]

Again, the debate stems from squads that can take heavy weapon teams but are not a Heavy Weapon Squad, because that profile isn’t listed. It just says two Guardsmen combine to form a heavy weapon team which must take a heavy weapon. So then the debate becomes whether the Guardsmen get to keep their equipment (and so have 2 lasguns) or not (and so have 0 lasguns).

 

Yes, 1 lasgun per team is the most logical, consistent, realistic and reasonable option, and I’m glad people agree, but it is not explicit in the ruleset.

Actually, the more I look Veterans entry, the more I start to doubt about that most reasonable choice... I see the point.

Thing is that when you look at Veterans rules, they have the HWT stat line, and for their gear : nothing more than 1 lasgun per vet and HW option. So, their is no reason to treat Veterans Heavy Weapon Team with something else than two lasgun... And for infantry finally, well your stat line is actually in HWS but, if you look RAW in Infantry options and gear regarding HWT, it's a copy past of Veterans entry...

[Shamansky]

 

Again, the debate stems from squads that can take heavy weapon teams but are not a Heavy Weapon Squad, because that profile isn’t listed. It just says two Guardsmen combine to form a heavy weapon team which must take a heavy weapon. So then the debate becomes whether the Guardsmen get to keep their equipment (and so have 2 lasguns) or not (and so have 0 lasguns).

 

Yes, 1 lasgun per team is the most logical, consistent, realistic and reasonable option, and I’m glad people agree, but it is not explicit in the ruleset.

Actually, the more I look Veterans entry, the more I start to doubt about that most reasonable choice... I see the point.

Thing is that when you look at Veterans rules, they have the HWT stat line, and for their gear : nothing more than 1 lasgun per vet and HW option. So, their is no reason to treat Veterans Heavy Weapon Team with something else than two lasgun... And for infantry finally, well your stat line is actually in HWS but, if you look RAW in Infantry options and gear regarding HWT, it's a copy past of Veterans entry...

 

Oh my... One more problem sucked out of thumb.

[Zuri Prime]

Neg. Infantry Squads may form a 'Heavy Weapons Team' which has a lasgun and fresh frag grenades per model plus their choice of heavy weapon. That term is defined under the Heavy Weapons Squad entry.

[Withershadow]

Please note that you don't get to keep your equipment when you become a completely different model.  If a Veteran and Veteran Sergeant need their own individual lines that lists their equipment, you most certainly cannot carry over equipment to a Veteran Heavy Weapon Team. 

 

I would rather have zero lasguns than give the argument for 2 lasguns any credence.  Not only is it not at all supported by the rules, it is obnoxious as hell to suggest that the guys firing the lascannon also strap their lasgun to the barrel so they can fire both at the same time. 

[duz_]

=][= Seeing as we keep repeating the same arguments and can't come to a conclusion, we're done here. =][=