Elite forces

[Ichar]

Does anyone think that maybe, just maybe, GW would be smart enough to share some of the elite Custodes ideas with GK and Deathwatch? Especially the army wide ObSec rule that the Custodes are getting. If they also do something about low CP for elite armies, maybe they will faq the other two elite armies. Here’s hoping.

Edit: I had an idea about CP. Apologies if someone has already thought of this. Elite armies get a CP for every say 200 points in their army. So a 2000 Point army that was elite and battle forged would have 13 CP. or something along those lines. Any thoughts?

Edited January 17, 2018 by Ichar

[Trevak Dal]

Well Greyknights already got their codex...so signs point to "no" for us.

 

I'm cynically betting that Custodates will make our Grey Knights look like regular marines next to Primaris. And if they are like they are for 30k...they will be :cussing MONSTROUS and punch WAY above their numbers, about as close to "Movie Marines" in an official non satirical armylist.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Trevak Dal

[Kallas]

Deathwatch are just regular Astartes with some extra training, equipment and a better knowledge base to draw upon. They aren't particularly 'special', they're just a specialised force that operates differently and, honestly, they shouldn't really expand beyond what they have currently (unless they are expanded into their own unique chapter, drawing recruits from other chapters instead of creating their own new ones, I guess) as that just wouldn't be what the Deathwatch are about.

 

Grey Knights are only slightly different. They're the Ordo Malleus chamber militant, and they are a whole chapter, one that rigorously tests for and trains only psychically gifted recruits (which is what makes them unique, essentially). They're specialist Demon Hunters with some extra gear and rules to show that but, at their core they're Astartes. They're somewhat more elite (as shown by Paladins) but their basic units are not that much more distinct from a normal Marine.

 

Sure, all Grey Knights are essential Librarians in the making, but it's unlikely that they would all go on to become fully fledged Epistolaries, and they do all already pack Force weaponry and generally 'better' (or at least the upgraded versions of standard Astartes gear, such as Storm Bolters over regular Bolters). They're pretty elite as is, and their costs, relative to Custodes, are much lower at their core.

 

For example, a Strike Squad starts at 105pts, whereas the cheapest (Index) Custodes unit is 260pts. While those Grey Knights are no tougher than a Marine (and they shouldn't be...they're just Psyker Marines) and the Custodes have better gear, wounds and stats in general, they are a very expensive force to field (points wise) and actually have very little mobility overall (though the Codex looks to be improving that somewhat with those jetbikes).

 

As for the army-wide ObSec: is that actually army-wide? Maybe the WC article says so (I don't recall seeing it) but the C:SM and C:BA codices both have two parts to it: the Abilities section, which talks about the army being Battle-Forged and pure SM/BA detachments giving only Troops units the Defenders of Humanity (ObSec) rule - it seems likely that the Custodes book will be the same, just that they simply previewed only the equivalent rule, rather than the other relevant part.

 

I guess my point is, Custodes are individually superior in a straight up fight to Astartes of all stripes. They pay for that ability on the tabletop (and in the background they are the tippy top of the chain, basically just below Primarchs) and will, in my estimation, probably not receive much in the way of excess special treatment. I would hazard a guess that they'll get only the same ObSec rule as everyone else (Troops only) and likely won't get any particularly special CP rules (they may get a character or two that grants bonus CP if they're Warlord, and they might get a CP regeneration ability/relic somewhere, but these things are relatively few and far between).

 

TL; DR

I don't think Custodes will get special treatment, and I don't think that GK/DW are especially hard up.

 

May not be the most popular opinion here, but it's all I've got :P

[Gentlemanloser]

Well now the GK aren't the 'elite' marines, nor are we actually Daemonhunters any more.

 

So what's our niche?

 

The all psyker chapter? Without standard marine wargear or units. With a nerfed smite. Ruke of 1 to hamstring us. And smite itself getting nerfed.

 

Yay?

 

Edit. The custards on sec applies to all infantry and bikes. So not entirely army wide. As The dreads and lr dont get it.

 

But custard tda squads minimum size 1, like our paladin of old, get it.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Gentlemanloser

[Danarc]

The all psyker marines chapter should have at least librarians stronger than simple chapters. 

[Gentlemanloser]

And Psychic vehicles again.

[Corvus Fortis]

Custodes gets obsec on Troops and Bikes because 5-man squad is a maximum size for them. Overwise they will have no chances to contest objectives. 

 

No Marine force is way different from GK or DW in objective holding. They certainly has better units for home-scoring (scouts) and maelstrom (bikers), but all Marine armies play 5-man squads anyway. So no, GW will never do it.

 

I personaly see custodes rather week in current meta as self-sufficient force. Small, elite units with no good shooting and a LR as only transport option. They will probably play as biker spam with terminator support and deepstrike troops with stratagem and hope for charge. So far they are clearly worse then GK. They shine in close combat, but good players will never allow them to get there.

[Gentlemanloser]

With 14-20" move and a Strat that let you charge in enemy turn?

 

The bikes will get into CC. ;)

 

And with BS2+ across the board, their shooting will be effective as well.

 

I think (depending on points) the AC will function just fine as a stand alone army.  Probably the best design for an Elite force currently.

[Danarc]

Custodes seem well designed. The anti tank jetbike (something that we desperately need), the feel no pain-like power (working also against psychic mortal wounds), the high speed jetbike (and the new IA that allow them using FW veichels in 40k match) show a well balanced army (from a hypothetical point of wives, I'm not saying that codex Custodes is balanced).

 

I'm really exited about them.

[Corvus Fortis]

Strategem costs a lot of CP. And we know, how good elite armies in bringing lots of CP (not that much). Jetbikes are only source of high powerful shooting (ok, there are LRs and Dreads, but LR is expensive addition to an expensive armies and dreads will take a turn or two to reach his target). They will be easily focuesd and taken down. SM, Eldar, AM and Nids say 'hello' to the newcomers. 

 

I'll look at WTs and Stratagems first, but so far they seem only a support force. I guess, Vexilia that gives 5++ to the Imperium units in bubble will be in every AM force. 

 

But I'm sure they will be great against GK! Protection from MW in psychic phase? Check! Durable against many bolter shots? Check! Superior in close combat? Check! 

[Beams]

Strategem costs a lot of CP. And we know, how good elite armies in bringing lots of CP (not that much). Jetbikes are only source of high powerful shooting (ok, there are LRs and Dreads, but LR is expensive addition to an expensive armies and dreads will take a turn or two to reach his target). They will be easily focuesd and taken down. SM, Eldar, AM and Nids say 'hello' to the newcomers.

 

I'll look at WTs and Stratagems first, but so far they seem only a support force. I guess, Vexilia that gives 5++ to the Imperium units in bubble will be in every AM force.

 

But I'm sure they will be great against GK! Protection from MW in psychic phase? Check! Durable against many bolter shots? Check! Superior in close combat? Check!

I honestly feel like Grey Knights will eat them alive. A 6+++ against mortal wounds means you do 5/6 the mortal wounds you already do. A few smites, vortices of Doom and Nemesis force weapons (4++'s are fickle as anything) and you should be good. If you can get the charges off first, you should smash stuff.

 

Also, a Nemesis grandmaster Dreadknight buffed prog/sanctuary with the sword, especially with the +1 damage warlord trait, will eat through them. Sure they'll block half the hits but averaging 3.5/4.5 damage a wound and there's a good chance you take out a huge chunk of their army in one blow. A jetbike army looks to be 17 models.

 

 

On the other hand, it'll take a metric crapton of lasguns to put a dent in a single Custodes, as a guardsman with orders and in rapid fire range does on average .1 wounds. So a full squad of guard firing lasguns (40 shots) might get one wound through on a basic Custodes, and half a wound on a jetbike.

 

Then that one Custodes turns around, kills two Guardsmen with his gun and then his four attacks hitting on two's, wounding on 2-3 with some rerolls from a HQ to turn four guardsman into mush, they fail leadership since anything over a 1 is a fail, and 2.5 more Guardsmen die, leaving the Sargent and a half a guy, who then either fight and die in their fight phase or retreat and die from a pot shot.

[Kallas]

Strategem costs a lot of CP. And we know, how good elite armies in bringing lots of CP (not that much). Jetbikes are only source of high powerful shooting (ok, there are LRs and Dreads, but LR is expensive addition to an expensive armies and dreads will take a turn or two to reach his target). They will be easily focuesd and taken down. SM, Eldar, AM and Nids say 'hello' to the newcomers. 

 

I'll look at WTs and Stratagems first, but so far they seem only a support force. I guess, Vexilia that gives 5++ to the Imperium units in bubble will be in every AM force. 

 

But I'm sure they will be great against GK! Protection from MW in psychic phase? Check! Durable against many bolter shots? Check! Superior in close combat? Check! 

 

Yeah, WTs and Stratagems will be an important part of the puzzle. But I would consider how difficult it is for Marines, DW and GK to get good amounts of CP, then look at how expensive basic Custodians are (260pts for a basic units of 5 Custodian Guards). Even getting Battalions is going to be expensive for them.

 

Allarus do get to double down on their FNP (I think? Do we know if Aegis of the Emperor and Binding Oaths are stackable/they have both?) It's possible that they get BO instead of AotE (ie, a flat 6+ FNP, rather than the 'normal' 6+ FNP vs psychic) though I'd err on the side of caution, and assume they have both. Considering that, each Smite wound has a 69.1% chance of causing a wound. Sure, that is much worse than the vast majority of most elite-grade units, but these dudes are going to be expensive, so they're going to need it. Plus, 6+ saves are pretty unreliable.

 

With judicious application of AP-1/-2 weaponry (hello Psybolt Ammo) they'll be taking a lot of saves, and inevitably failing quite a lot, overall. That's always been one of the downfalls of Deathwing, and the Custodes will have even fewer bodies (albeit tougher bodies).

 

 

On the other hand, it'll take a metric crapton of lasguns to put a dent in a single Custodes, as a guardsman with orders and in rapid fire range does on average .1 wounds. So a full squad of guard firing lasguns (40 shots) might get one wound through on a basic Custodes, and half a wound on a jetbike.

 

Actually, an Infantry Squad with FRFSRF in Rapid Fire range will do an average of 1 wound to a Custodian (0.867 to an Allarus).

38 shots (assuming a Bolter Sgt) *0.5 (19 hits) *0.33 (6.27 wounds; all shots are wounding on 5s vs T5) *0.166 (1.041 failed saves; *0.833, 0.867 failed Binding Oaths FNP)

 

Now, if they have a Vexilia Magnifica (for the -1 to hit...and why wouldn't you?! Good God-Emperor that is a ridiculously good buff) then it'll take :cuss:-tons of lasgun shots!

 

If the Vertus Praetors turn out to be T6 (I mean, likely) then lasguns are not the way to bring them down. Unless you have nothing else you can shoot at!

 

 

The all psyker marines chapter should have at least librarians stronger than simple chapters. 

And Psychic vehicles again.

 

I mean...why? To both.

 

Better Psykers? You have every Marine being a Psyker. Other than an immersion into a group where psychic prowess is far more accepted and some slightly better bits of gear, Grey Knights aren't particularly better Psykers than other Librarians.

 

And psychic vehicles, sure, I guess that kind of makes sense, but at the same time there are a bunch of guys inside a metal box - what kind of psychic projection can they do? From a rules logic point of view, Psykers can't use psychic powers while embarked on a transport; so it would follow that psychic drivers can't use psychic powers while driving (ie, embarked on) a vehicle.

On the other hand, it'll take a metric crapton of lasguns to put a dent in a single Custodes, as a guardsman with orders and in rapid fire range does on average .1 wounds. So a full squad of guard firing lasguns (40 shots) might get one wound through on a basic Custodes, and half a wound on a jetbike.

 

Actually, an Infantry Squad with FRFSRF in Rapid Fire range will do an average of 1 wound to a Custodian (0.867 to an Allarus).

38 shots (assuming a Bolter Sgt) *0.5 (19 hits) *0.33 (6.27 wounds; all shots are wounding on 5s vs T5) *0.166 (1.041 failed saves; *0.833, 0.867 failed Binding Oaths FNP)

 

Now, if they have a Vexilia Magnifica (for the -1 to hit...and why wouldn't you?! Good God-Emperor that is a ridiculously good buff) then it'll take :cuss:-tons of lasgun shots!

 

If the Vertus Praetors turn out to be T6 (I mean, likely) then lasguns are not the way to bring them down. Unless you have nothing else you can shoot at!

 

 

The all psyker marines chapter should have at least librarians stronger than simple chapters. 

And Psychic vehicles again.

 

I mean...why? To both.

 

Better Psykers? You have every Marine being a Psyker. Other than an immersion into a group where psychic prowess is far more accepted and some slightly better bits of gear, Grey Knights aren't particularly better Psykers than other Librarians.

 

And psychic vehicles, sure, I guess that kind of makes sense, but at the same time there are a bunch of guys inside a metal box - what kind of psychic projection can they do? From a rules logic point of view, Psykers can't use psychic powers while embarked on a transport; so it would follow that psychic drivers can't use psychic powers while driving (ie, embarked on) a vehicle.

[Beams]

Yeah, I mean if one guy does .1 than a full squad with lasguns would do 1 on average, but sargents dont get lasguns, meaning it's be more like .9ish

 

But if within a vexilla, your looking at one guy doing .06ish to a basic Custodes even within best circumstances, meaning 9 lasguns squad is going to do .65 wounds to the guy. (Hitting on 5's, wounding on 5's, 2+ save, 4 shots a guy, 9 lasguns a team, plus one laspistol (.33*.33*(1/6))*9, +.06 for one laspistol, and it's looking like each squad has approximately 70% chance of putting a wound on a Custodes with lasguns. Sure, other weapons are better, but everyone seems to have a very "lasguns break the game" mentality. On the other hand, an overcharged plasma should do about .21 assuming a 4++ and not a 3++, and a melta .38

 

I wonder if we'll see meltas in response?

Edited January 19, 2018 by Beams

[Kallas]

Yeah, I mean if one guy does .1 than a full squad with lasguns would do 1 on average, but sargents dont get lasguns, meaning it's be more like .9ish

Ah I get you, I misread your post and thought you had said squad, my bad!

[Gentlemanloser]

Did you read the Ward Dex Kallas? 

 

Psychic Pilot was a rule all our Vehicles had.

[Danarc]

Our librarian is weaker than others, from a psychic point of view, due to our nerfed smite. Our librarians, by fluff, are some of the best in the galaxy. In fact in the past editions we were the few that had 3rd level psykers. UM had only Tiggy and we were full of them. 

 

I can't accept that a psyker chapter have B-class librarians.

[Corvus Fortis]

 

I honestly feel like Grey Knights will eat them alive. A 6+++ against mortal wounds means you do 5/6 the mortal wounds you already do. A few smites, vortices of Doom and Nemesis force weapons (4++'s are fickle as anything) and you should be good. If you can get the charges off first, you should smash stuff.

ardsmen die, leaving the Sargent and a half a guy, who then either fight and die in their fight phase or retreat and die from a pot shot.

 

 

Honestly, my opponents just too good in making 4++ and 6+ (once a Chaplain survived 2 phases of combat with GMNDK just because of 4++).  

 

Yes, Custodes are good on paper, but in fact not all units will be affected by auras, characters will die, leaving custodes without rerolls, strong units tied by chaff, etc. etc. In Custodes army every unit is literraly a pot of gold and every lost model will be huge impact on performance. They have several teleportation rules, but it is not enough to deliver them to the battlefield. Without good tranportation means, an army in current edition can do nothing. They will become way better when they get FW stuff and maybe plastic vehicles in 40k, but until then they are not a competitive army by their own. Their close combat may be infinitely good, but what it means if they cannot get there? 

[Gentlemanloser]

Bikes. ;)

[Danarc]

Bikes.

 

YEP. 

Maybe captain on jet bikes and 2 jet bikes could help us. maybe with a standard bearer for 5++ to our pagk?

Edited January 19, 2018 by Danarc

[Gentlemanloser]

Strikes with a 5++! Love it! :D

 

Move over Azrael, there's a cheaper, younger, replacement now! ;)

[Kallas]

Honestly, my opponents just too good in making 4++ and 6+ (once a Chaplain survived 2 phases of combat with GMNDK just because of 4++).

It's always better to be lucky :P

 

Did you read the Ward Dex Kallas?

 

Psychic Pilot was a rule all our Vehicles had.

No, I remember. But (1) Matt Ward is immediately indefensible (otherwise Grey Knights want to be like Ultramarines!) and (2) I made my logic clear above. I don't think it's really necessary to have psychic vehicles, not to mention it'd likely drive up their cost.

 

Our librarian is weaker than others, from a psychic point of view, due to our nerfed smite. Our librarians, by fluff, are some of the best in the galaxy. In fact in the past editions we were the few that had 3rd level psykers. UM had only Tiggy and we were full of them.

 

I can't accept that a psyker chapter have B-class librarians.

Well that's pretty reasonable. I don't think that Grey Knights must (necessarily) be the best Psykers, but they should definitely not be worse than other Librarians.

[Beams]

One thing, that I think is incredibly important when discussing our librarians, is that they deny on a plus 2, which is super fluffy, and for a command point can deny an additional time, making them one of the ebest units in the game to stop a clutch power or two.

[Corvus Fortis]

I just do not understand what becomes with a Grey Knight when he sit into a driver's sit in a Rhino. Do the Truesilver Armor block psychic powers from inside? 

 

And our libbies are a bit better with two denies per phase and 2+ BS\WS. But the cost difference is to high for such things, imo.

 

Also Voldus is the best Psyker in Imperium so far with 3 casts and 3 denies.

[Gentlemanloser]

No You don't read the dex? So you didn't know about psychic pilot?

 

We used to have it.

 

We should still have it.

[Soder]

I'm feeling a little less elitist/unique at the moment. We pay for our units to (for the most part) all have deep strike and to all be psykers, yet we can only deep strike 50% and with the new beta rule looming over our heads what's the point of paying for every unit to be a psyker if they are going to limit our already limited psychic phase?

 

Ya I dunno, it's looking more and more like our codex was literally cut and paste of the index (with I guess the addition of the GMNDK being the only difference between the two) Remember our faction focus? It was not even a full paragraph thrown in at the end of another army's focus! Custodes have had 5(?) articles so far..

 

The codex creep seems real. GW seems to have a better handle on things now though. Or at least seem to have a better grasp on how to make different armies feel more unique. I really just hope we get a good looking at before the next Chapter Approved comes out.

 

Maybe when 1k sons gets their codex released we'll get a hint of some unique things they came up with for a psyker heavy army.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Soder