Elite forces

[Corvus Fortis]

 

If you send your ~250 pts unit sitting on an objective for the whole game, you doing something definitely wrong.

you do know you can have a single Terminator as a unit?

 

 

In this case these points will not even be able to fight back. 

Edited January 22, 2018 by Corvus Fortis

[Gentlemanloser]

84 points. Guardian Axe shooting and ap-3 nade launcher. 4 S8 axe attacks in cc. And 4w with 2+/4++ save.

 

That unless you kill or have troops with obsec will claim objectives.

 

I think a Vexila is about 100 points. Might be abit more. Butt they're not 250.

[Beams]

84 points. Guardian Axe shooting and ap-3 nade launcher. 4 S8 axe attacks in cc. And 4w with 2+/4++ save.

 

That unless you kill or have troops with obsec will claim objectives.

 

I think a Vexila is about 100 points. Might be abit more. Butt they're not 250.

I mean, are you spending a command point AND a detachment for them? For guard players, detachments are important, since you can easily max out one, and if you don't want to spend points on units you don't want, your going to want 2-3 with one battalion or brigade, and then 1-2 Outrider/Vanguard/Spearhead. So to spend 1 cp, 84 pts, and a detachment isn't considered 'cheap', as well as a 30+ of real world money.

 

That's not to say no one will do it, but since it effects much fewer models, and not every guard player will have a Custodes with a vexilla in their collection nor want one, since it isn't fluffy and isn't a guard model, I would only expect a few people to field that.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Beams

[Corvus Fortis]

ObSec troops will take objective then. Even a 5-man strike squad will statistically kill one terminator a turn (smite+bolters+charge). Taking 6 models to reserves, means, that you need at least 6 units on table - too much for such an army. So no other DS > custodes will footslog through battlefield.  Again, leaving a model for doing nothing for an army with 20 models for a 2k game is a huge impact on performance. 

 

Ok, as soon as codex arrives, we will have a testing game in local store and see how it all really works on table.

[TheCastigator]

I think you’ll likely see outrider detachments of the bikes as a compliment force. Those things are going to do work especiall with the bike captain or whatever they’re called. If you could jam some of them in a gk army it would help, but AC don’t solve gk’s problem of having zero board control.

 

Short of the bikes, I don’t think they are that much better — which is debatable — than GK. They have some neat tricks, but as has been said they have major deficiencies as a stand alone force. If they had added sisters of silence, I think the codex would be WAY better. Even with their cost, they would make a good screen and offer psychic defense.

Edited January 23, 2018 by TheCastigator

[Danarc]

I saw some rules of the codex. Termy units, as every other units are 3+ models.

No more single custodes.

 

Probably I will take a supreme command detachment for 3 shield captain on jetbike and a vexilla for more or less 600 points.

[TheCastigator]

I saw some rules of the codex. Termy units, as every other units are 3+ models.

No more single custodes.

Probably I will take a supreme command detachment for 3 shield captain on jetbike and a vexilla for more or less 600 points.

That in guard list would be awesome. Are you taking them with GK?

[Danarc]

Yes. I’m wondering about draigo gmdk 20+ pagk in DS and epurators near vexilla.

[Gentlemanloser]

Ah. Poop. Seen that datasheet as well.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

There is a Strategem that lets you split up the Terminators into single model units. Dunno if its worth though, compared to some of the others.

[Trevak Dal]

Hmm, so Custodates are now the only guys with a mortal wound defense at all?

[jeffersonian000]

Hmm, so Custodates are now the only guys with a mortal wound defense at all?

Tau Shield Drones.

 

SJ

[Helycon]

Anything with disgustingly reselient too. Or void shields, if you want to go something...bigger :)

[Corvus Fortis]

Doesn't the most of armies have "ignore any wound on the roll of n+" rule for some units? Army-wide both AdMech and Eldar have "chapter tactics" allowing model to survive on a roll of 6. 

[Capt. Mytre]

That's part of my issue with GK, we pay a hefty cost compared to regular space marines for greater output, but don't receive an increase in survivability.

 

For example, we gain good melee weapons, psychic abilities (situational and poor scalability given psychic focus) and effectively have twin-linked bolters over a regular marine. We lose chapter tactics, various aura buffs and less unit options/configurations. Cost 13 vs 21. That's a +62% increase in points, and we don't receive any survivability buffs. That makes GK the "glass cannon" of space marine chapters, but struggle to bring that cannon to bear because it requires being 1 foot away from the enemy to deal any significant damage.

[Beams]

That's part of my issue with GK, we pay a hefty cost compared to regular space marines for greater output, but don't receive an increase in survivability.

 

For example, we gain good melee weapons, psychic abilities (situational and poor scalability given psychic focus) and effectively have twin-linked bolters over a regular marine. We lose chapter tactics, various aura buffs and less unit options/configurations. Cost 13 vs 21. That's a +62% increase in points, and we don't receive any survivability buffs. That makes GK the "glass cannon" of space marine chapters, but struggle to bring that cannon to bear because it requires being 1 foot away from the enemy to deal any significant damage.

We don't lose chapter tactics, we have our own version of chapter tactical (+1 to cast and deny)

 

Also, how much are falchions worth? I'd say +1 attack and -2 AP D3 damage would be worth at least(!) 5 since a power sword is 4. A stormbolter is 2 pts, and you haven't even factored in your deepstrike or psychic and your at 20+ pts. Any increase in survivability will make grey knights broken in comparison to Marines.

 

You can't have a unit increase in every way without increases the cost for each direction you take it, which would then defeat the point of the increase in the first place, ie, you can either increase damage potential or survivability potential, but not both. It's the problem codex Marines face (they are too good all around, which makes them have to cost too much to be as good in any role as cheaper options)

[Corvus Fortis]

And people use only Ultramarines and Raven Guard in competitive games. From all "chapter tactics" type rule there are only 1-2 good usually (IG is exception so far). Our Psychic Brotherhood is one of a few really good things that GW gave us in 8.  I'm completely ok with it.

 

Looks like nemesis force weapon costs 6 pts (because of difference between heavy psycannon and psilencer costs for terminators and PAs is exactly 6).

[Capt. Mytre]

 

That's part of my issue with GK, we pay a hefty cost compared to regular space marines for greater output, but don't receive an increase in survivability.

 

For example, we gain good melee weapons, psychic abilities (situational and poor scalability given psychic focus) and effectively have twin-linked bolters over a regular marine. We lose chapter tactics, various aura buffs and less unit options/configurations. Cost 13 vs 21. That's a +62% increase in points, and we don't receive any survivability buffs. That makes GK the "glass cannon" of space marine chapters, but struggle to bring that cannon to bear because it requires being 1 foot away from the enemy to deal any significant damage.

We don't lose chapter tactics, we have our own version of chapter tactical (+1 to cast and deny)

 

Also, how much are falchions worth? I'd say +1 attack and -2 AP D3 damage would be worth at least(!) 5 since a power sword is 4. A stormbolter is 2 pts, and you haven't even factored in your deepstrike or psychic and your at 20+ pts. Any increase in survivability will make grey knights broken in comparison to Marines.

 

You can't have a unit increase in every way without increases the cost for each direction you take it, which would then defeat the point of the increase in the first place, ie, you can either increase damage potential or survivability potential, but not both. It's the problem codex Marines face (they are too good all around, which makes them have to cost too much to be as good in any role as cheaper options)

 

 

We lose chapter tactics, ie, we cannot chose what chapter we are from to change the play style of the army. +1 cast/deny is actually just a minor increase in chance (~10%) to successful cast, as the rolls are so low in the first place. Marines specifically can get increases to their survivability, either in the form of -1 to hit or 6+ FNP. I'd take either of those over +1 to psychic rolls.

 

Psychic powers, melee weapons, deepstriking etc are all situational increases in power, doubly so because of the matched play rules that specifically limit us in both the psychic phase and the ability to who we can deepstrike. This premium also means that each CP cost in points is vastly increased (62% at least).

 

There's a reason we are at the bottom of the codex pile, a minor increase in survivability wouldn't make us OP - it wouldn't even bring us up to par.

[Schlitzaf]

So.....I don’t have Chapter tactics? That is a fallacy. If I want to use my Crusader Squads I have to use my BT Chapter Tactics. Which rerolls charges are simply mediocre all said and done. Or BA and DA don’t have Chapter tactics if they use Sang Gaurd and Deathwing?

 

That is just...that is an inane argument. You have Chapter Tactics you might not like them but you have Chapter Tactics. And so we are clear you get deep striking for free.

Edited January 26, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[Capt. Mytre]

So.....I don’t have Chapter tactics? That is a fallacy. If I want to use my Crusader Squads I have to use my BT Chapter Tactics. Which rerolls charges are simply mediocre all said and done. Or BA and DA don’t have Chapter tactics if they use Sang Gaurd and Deathwing?

 

That is just...that is an inane argument. You have Chapter Tactics you might not like them but you have Chapter Tactics. And so we are clear you get deep striking for free.

 

You've misunderstood me, "lose chapter tactics" is about not having <CHAPTER>, it would be like if I was comparing IG and GK, you would lose <REGIMENT>, you gain GREY KNIGHT, which grants its own benefits.

[Danarc]

So.....I don’t have Chapter tactics? That is a fallacy. If I want to use my Crusader Squads I have to use my BT Chapter Tactics. Which rerolls charges are simply mediocre all said and done. Or BA and DA don’t have Chapter tactics if they use Sang Gaurd and Deathwing?

 

That is just...that is an inane argument. You have Chapter Tactics you might not like them but you have Chapter Tactics. And so we are clear you get deep striking for free.

for free na sega. 

[Kallas]

 

 

So.....I don’t have Chapter tactics? That is a fallacy. If I want to use my Crusader Squads I have to use my BT Chapter Tactics. Which rerolls charges are simply mediocre all said and done. Or BA and DA don’t have Chapter tactics if they use Sang Gaurd and Deathwing?

 

That is just...that is an inane argument. You have Chapter Tactics you might not like them but you have Chapter Tactics. And so we are clear you get deep striking for free.

You've misunderstood me, "lose chapter tactics" is about not having <CHAPTER>, it would be like if I was comparing IG and GK, you would lose <REGIMENT>, you gain GREY KNIGHT, which grants its own benefits.

And Schlitzaf was saying that other armies are similarly 'locked in'. Blood Angels get the Red Thirst - it's good, but situational in that is does nothing for their Psychic or Shooting Phases; same for the Dark Angels, who only get a bonus (well, an active bonus, as the morale mitigation is always on but pretty minimal) if they don't move.

 

Grey Knights are a Chapter, just like those two (and eventually like Space Wolves) and so have their own ability. Also, Ultramarines players, for example, can't really get away with using a different Chapter Tactic. Grey Knights shouldn't have multiple to choose from as they are a single Chapter - they may have brotherhoods, but that is no different to other Chapters' companies, or the Black Templars' crusades, which all use the same tactics.

 

As Beams says, Grey Knights get quite a lot of extra bang for their buck. Assuming comparison with a Tactical Marine:

- Storm Bolters over Bolters: double the output for a 2pts increase

- Force Weapons: a non-Grey Knight Librarian pays 8-10pts for their Force Weapons. Grey Knight ones are copies, of course, though the Falchions are actually excellent as they're basically Force Lightning Claws (which, if we're to use the standard for the others would cost 24pts...) But let's call them 5pts

- Psychic Powers: had to quantify, but even Baby Smite is useful (moreso the tougher the target) and the extra utility of a bunch of (+1) Deny attempts is excellent; then there's the flexibility of having extra users around to cast the actual Sanctic Powers. Let's call that 2pts per model in a Strike Squad.

- Deep Strike: again, hard to quantify, as the maximum half rule, 9" limit and various other factors can make a huge difference in how useful it actual plays. Let's call it 1pt for Strikes.

- Anti-Daemon: niche, but pretty useful against Daemons! Auto 3D Smites is pretty awesome, particularly as Daemons got some good stuff in their Codex, not to mention very useful against things like the Daemon Primarchs. Rerolls to wound is also nice, as elite models can't really afford to lose attacks to bad luck - again it's niche, but still useful to have. Let's call this another 1pt.

 

That's a pretty flimsy look, and pretty generous, but that would put a Strike at 24pts each, so they're getting a 3pt discount from my guesstimating.

 

And again, as Beams said, you can't really expect a resilience increase without a subsequent, relative price increase.

 

The loss of aura buffs is probably the only real defect of Grey Knights, but then I'd say that's because their focus is elsewhere. Brother-Captains have Psychic Locus, instead, which should inform somewhat of the Grey Knights' niche - being a Psyker heavy army, which they are. They're an elite, anti-Psyker/anti-Daemon army, and their rules represent that pretty well.

 

If you want to play Grey Knights as something else, I guess you could paint them up as something else and use a crapton of Company Veterans with Storm Bolters and Power Swords/Lances?

[Gentlemanloser]

We're no longer an elite army. AC have taken that crown.

 

You can compare Stikes to marine elite vets.

 

You can compare Custard Guard to gk elite paladin.

 

I wonder how the breakdown on Guard prices would look. They get a lot for 52 points.

 

Edit. Psychic locus is such a cop out. Reduce our smite range to 12".

 

Give us an aura ability to bring it back up again. But lock us out of wounds rerolls for the privellege.

 

No One uses bcs. I'd rather have reroll 1s to wound.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Gentlemanloser

[Helycon]

We're no longer an elite army. AC have taken that crown.

 

You can compare Stikes to marine elite vets.

 

You can compare Custard Guard to gk elite paladin.

 

I wonder how the breakdown on Guard prices would look. They get a lot for 52 points.

 

Edit. Psychic locus is such a cop out. Reduce our smite range to 12".

 

Give us an aura ability to bring it back up again. But lock us out of wounds rerolls for the privellege.

 

No One uses bcs. I'd rather have reroll 1s to wound.

Just because there's another elite army, doesn't mean you're no longer elite. It's like saying that Orks aren't a horde army, because Tyranids have that crown. It's just untrue.

 

And can we please wait with complaining the sky is falling. AC isn't even out at full strength and haven't played a tournament to see where they stand compared to any of the other armies. Maybe they do even worse than GK due to their lack of versatility.

 

Then there's the upcoming march update. If that turns out to be a flop, then GK players have the right to be annoyed and left out.

[Holier Than Thou]

 

We're no longer an elite army. AC have taken that crown.

You can compare Stikes to marine elite vets.

You can compare Custard Guard to gk elite paladin.

I wonder how the breakdown on Guard prices would look. They get a lot for 52 points.

Edit. Psychic locus is such a cop out. Reduce our smite range to 12".

Give us an aura ability to bring it back up again. But lock us out of wounds rerolls for the privellege.

No One uses bcs. I'd rather have reroll 1s to wound.

Just because there's another elite army, doesn't mean you're no longer elite. It's like saying that Orks aren't a horde army, because Tyranids have that crown. It's just untrue.

And can we please wait with complaining the sky is falling. AC isn't even out at full strength and haven't played a tournament to see where they stand compared to any of the other armies. Maybe they do even worse than GK due to their lack of versatility.

Then there's the upcoming march update. If that turns out to be a flop, then GK players have the right to be annoyed and left out.

Grey Knights players ALREADY have the right to feel annoyed and left out. Since our release there has been several updates and FAQs. Each one has put us more and more firmly in bottom place, even compared to some armies that don't even have a Codex.

 

With the release of our Codex Games Workshop gave the impression they don't care about Grey Knights. With each subsequent release, they have shown they actively dislike Grey Knights.