Elite forces

[Helycon]

 

 

We're no longer an elite army. AC have taken that crown.

You can compare Stikes to marine elite vets.

You can compare Custard Guard to gk elite paladin.

I wonder how the breakdown on Guard prices would look. They get a lot for 52 points.

Edit. Psychic locus is such a cop out. Reduce our smite range to 12".

Give us an aura ability to bring it back up again. But lock us out of wounds rerolls for the privellege.

No One uses bcs. I'd rather have reroll 1s to wound.

Just because there's another elite army, doesn't mean you're no longer elite. It's like saying that Orks aren't a horde army, because Tyranids have that crown. It's just untrue.

And can we please wait with complaining the sky is falling. AC isn't even out at full strength and haven't played a tournament to see where they stand compared to any of the other armies. Maybe they do even worse than GK due to their lack of versatility.

Then there's the upcoming march update. If that turns out to be a flop, then GK players have the right to be annoyed and left out.

Grey Knights players ALREADY have the right to feel annoyed and left out. Since our release there has been several updates and FAQs. Each one has put us more and more firmly in bottom place, even compared to some armies that don't even have a Codex.

 

With the release of our Codex Games Workshop gave the impression they don't care about Grey Knights. With each subsequent release, they have shown they actively dislike Grey Knights.

FAQ /= balance. The former is to address printing errors, unwanted interaction between units and factions and clarify wording. The latter is for actually changing stats and mechanics.

[Holier Than Thou]

 

Grey Knights players ALREADY have the right to feel annoyed and left out. Since our release there has been several updates and FAQs. Each one has put us more and more firmly in bottom place, even compared to some armies that don't even have a Codex.

With the release of our Codex Games Workshop gave the impression they don't care about Grey Knights. With each subsequent release, they have shown they actively dislike Grey Knights.

FAQ /= balance. The former is to address printing errors, unwanted interaction between units and factions and clarify wording. The latter is for actually changing stats and mechanics.

Yes, and whenever Grey Knights have been affected by these interactions, for instance with Nids Shadow in the Warp, every ruling has gone against us.

[Helycon]

You're pissed that +1 and -1 equals 0. I'm not even sure how to respond to that...

[Holier Than Thou]

You're pissed that +1 and -1 equals 0. I'm not even sure how to respond to that...

No, I'm pissed that every Codex released is better than ours and every opportunity Games Workshop have had to remedy this and bring us in line with everyone else (or even just throw us a bone) they have not only chosen not to, but have actually chosen to weaken us further.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Holier Than Thou

[Helycon]

 

You're pissed that +1 and -1 equals 0. I'm not even sure how to respond to that...

No, I'm pissed that every Codex released is better than ours and every opportunity Games Workshop have had to remedy this and bring us in line with everyone else (or even just throw us a bone) they have not only chosen not to, but have actually chosen to weaken us further.

They haven't had time to remedy it, except for points. I'll give you that, since CA didn't really address any of it. Claiming Nids got an advantage because of Shadows in the warp shafting GK is just silly because it's basic math. Your post made no sense because of it and still doesn't. Sure, the newer things will be better, they've had more time to be fleshed out. Someone has to be the first, and this time, it was GK. They seem to have realised this and toned down later codices, leaving the ones currently released in the middle, as the stronger codices. Give them time, stop complaining and have fun with some games. If you're not having fun playing the game, find something else in the meantime that does give you a sense of satisfaction. No one is making you play 40k.

[Holier Than Thou]

Sorry, I meant The Deepest Shadow. A stratagem that costs Nids 1cp and states enemy Psyker can only roll one die for test. Our stratagem, costing 2cps, that said we roll 3 dice was changed so that the Nids one would over-rule it.

 

And I'm sorry but they have had plenty of time to remedy it. They just haven't.

[Kallas]

Sorry, I meant The Deepest Shadow. A stratagem that costs Nids 1cp and states enemy Psyker can only roll one die for test. Our stratagem, costing 2cps, that said we roll 3 dice was changed so that the Nids one would over-rule it.

 

And I'm sorry but they have had plenty of time to remedy it. They just haven't.

Considering that the more accurate reading of the rules would result in The Deepest Shadow 'beating' Psychic Channeling (2d6 -> 3d6 drop lowest -> 1d6), the FAQ let's you get 2d6 drop lowest, so it's actually in the favour of the Grey Knights stratagem with regards to rules ordering.

 

As for plenty of time, not everything got covered. There are plentiful things that still need looked at for balance and haven't, such as Assault Marines (which are awful), or Guard Infantry Squads being pound-for-pound (or point-for-point) the best unit in the game - with GW making a more committed attempt to balance the game regularly, just be a little patient.

 

The sky isn't falling, GW doesn't hate Grey Knights.

[Holier Than Thou]

 

Sorry, I meant The Deepest Shadow. A stratagem that costs Nids 1cp and states enemy Psyker can only roll one die for test. Our stratagem, costing 2cps, that said we roll 3 dice was changed so that the Nids one would over-rule it.

And I'm sorry but they have had plenty of time to remedy it. They just haven't.

Considering that the more accurate reading of the rules would result in The Deepest Shadow 'beating' Psychic Channeling (2d6 -> 3d6 drop lowest -> 1d6), the FAQ let's you get 2d6 drop lowest, so it's actually in the favour of the Grey Knights stratagem with regards to rules ordering.

As for plenty of time, not everything got covered. There are plentiful things that still need looked at for balance and haven't, such as Assault Marines (which are awful), or Guard Infantry Squads being pound-for-pound (or point-for-point) the best unit in the game - with GW making a more committed attempt to balance the game regularly, just be a little patient.

The sky isn't falling, GW doesn't hate Grey Knights.

I think you'll find that, according to the rules on sequencing, when two rules occur at the same time the player whose turn it is chooses the order. So, in the Grey Knights player's turn, they choose to use Psychic Channeling and his Tyranid opponent chooses to use The Deepest Shadow. With the original wording, allowing us to roll three dice you would choose for Deepest Shadow to happen first, dropping us to one dice before Psychic Channeling bumped us back up to three. So the Grey Knights would have had the advantage.

 

How difficult would the below have been?

 

Grey Knights Stratagem - costs 1cp - roll an additional dice and discard the lowest

 

Tyranids Stratagem - costs 1cp - roll an additional dice and discard the highest

 

Both give the same bonus/penalty, both cost the same amount of cps, neither gives an advantage when they interact. Fair, balanced and took me all of 10 seconds to come up with yet GW couldn't manage this?

[Helycon]

 

 

Sorry, I meant The Deepest Shadow. A stratagem that costs Nids 1cp and states enemy Psyker can only roll one die for test. Our stratagem, costing 2cps, that said we roll 3 dice was changed so that the Nids one would over-rule it.

And I'm sorry but they have had plenty of time to remedy it. They just haven't.

Considering that the more accurate reading of the rules would result in The Deepest Shadow 'beating' Psychic Channeling (2d6 -> 3d6 drop lowest -> 1d6), the FAQ let's you get 2d6 drop lowest, so it's actually in the favour of the Grey Knights stratagem with regards to rules ordering.

As for plenty of time, not everything got covered. There are plentiful things that still need looked at for balance and haven't, such as Assault Marines (which are awful), or Guard Infantry Squads being pound-for-pound (or point-for-point) the best unit in the game - with GW making a more committed attempt to balance the game regularly, just be a little patient.

The sky isn't falling, GW doesn't hate Grey Knights.

I think you'll find that, according to the rules on sequencing, when two rules occur at the same time the player whose turn it is chooses the order. So, in the Grey Knights player's turn, they choose to use Psychic Channeling and his Tyranid opponent chooses to use The Deepest Shadow. With the original wording, allowing us to roll three dice you would choose for Deepest Shadow to happen first, dropping us to one dice before Psychic Channeling bumped us back up to three. So the Grey Knights would have had the advantage.

 

How difficult would the below have been?

 

Grey Knights Stratagem - costs 1cp - roll an additional dice and discard the lowest

 

Tyranids Stratagem - costs 1cp - roll an additional dice and discard the highest

 

Both give the same bonus/penalty, both cost the same amount of cps, neither gives an advantage when they interact. Fair, balanced and took me all of 10 seconds to come up with yet GW couldn't manage this?

Ok, so your beef is with Stratagems.

 

Our FAQ literally says that. Roll an additional die and discard the lowest result. Still not sure how we get shafted.

[Kallas]

 

Considering that the more accurate reading of the rules would result in The Deepest Shadow 'beating' Psychic Channeling (2d6 -> 3d6 drop lowest -> 1d6), the FAQ let's you get 2d6 drop lowest, so it's actually in the favour of the Grey Knights stratagem with regards to rules ordering.

I think you'll find that, according to the rules on sequencing, when two rules occur at the same time the player whose turn it is chooses the order. So, in the Grey Knights player's turn, they choose to use Psychic Channeling and his Tyranid opponent chooses to use The Deepest Shadow. With the original wording, allowing us to roll three dice you would choose for Deepest Shadow to happen first, dropping us to one dice before Psychic Channeling bumped us back up to three. So the Grey Knights would have had the advantage.

 

How difficult would the below have been?

 

Grey Knights Stratagem - costs 1cp - roll an additional dice and discard the lowest

 

Tyranids Stratagem - costs 1cp - roll an additional dice and discard the highest

 

Both give the same bonus/penalty, both cost the same amount of cps, neither gives an advantage when they interact. Fair, balanced and took me all of 10 seconds to come up with yet GW couldn't manage this?

I wasn't talking about rules sequencing, in which you are basically correct, but the way The Deepest Shadow is worded used to (pre-FAQ) result in GK rolling a single d6.

 

This was not because of sequencing, and my previous post was ambiguous sorry, but because TDS says you roll 1d6; PC says (or said) roll 3d6 instead of 2, ergo, if you don't have 2 you don't get the 3.

 

That was RAW; the FAQ ruled in your favour.

[Holier Than Thou]

Ok, so your beef is with Stratagems.

Our FAQ literally says that. Roll an additional die and discard the lowest result. Still not sure how we get shafted.

 

 

My beef is with the piss poor job Games Workshop do with regards having things balanced. Stratagems are just one of the things that this is evident in. The example I gave, where one stratagem allows you to roll an extra dice but discard one result for a total of 2d6 and another where the final value is 1d6, the second one is clearly more powerful yet costs less cps? Another example is the Daemon one, for two cps they can get an extra 350ish points back against one particular army, we can roll an extra dice and discard the lowest. It's a joke.

 

 

I wasn't talking about rules sequencing, in which you are basically correct, but the way The Deepest Shadow is worded used to (pre-FAQ) result in GK rolling a single d6.

This was not because of sequencing, and my previous post was ambiguous sorry, but because TDS says you roll 1d6; PC says (or said) roll 3d6 instead of 2, ergo, if you don't have 2 you don't get the 3.

That was RAW; the FAQ ruled in your favour.

Yep, I forgot about the "instead of 2" part in which case, yes the FAQ aids us slightly so I will concede that point. But it could have easily just removed the "instead of 2" and given us a slight boost rather than a smaller nerf.

[Helycon]

 

Ok, so your beef is with Stratagems.

Our FAQ literally says that. Roll an additional die and discard the lowest result. Still not sure how we get shafted.

 

 

My beef is with the piss poor job Games Workshop do with regards having things balanced. Stratagems are just one of the things that this is evident in. The example I gave, where one stratagem allows you to roll an extra dice but discard one result for a total of 2d6 and another where the final value is 1d6, the second one is clearly more powerful yet costs less cps? Another example is the Daemon one, for two cps they can get an extra 350ish points back against one particular army, we can roll an extra dice and discard the lowest. It's a joke.

 

 

I wasn't talking about rules sequencing, in which you are basically correct, but the way The Deepest Shadow is worded used to (pre-FAQ) result in GK rolling a single d6.

This was not because of sequencing, and my previous post was ambiguous sorry, but because TDS says you roll 1d6; PC says (or said) roll 3d6 instead of 2, ergo, if you don't have 2 you don't get the 3.

That was RAW; the FAQ ruled in your favour.

Yep, I forgot about the "instead of 2" part in which case, yes the FAQ aids us slightly so I will concede that point. But it could have easily just removed the "instead of 2" and given us a slight boost rather than a smaller nerf.

 

You do realise that that is their only way of doing anything other than straight up get massacred by GK, yes? All psyker units will simply do 3 MW on every smite cast, which virtual every GK unit is. That's not even rerolling to wound taken into account, which is going to be brutal on a full force of falchion wielding supersoldiers. They have 1 stratagem that lets fight back specifically against GK, and you seem, again, to think the sky is falling. Also, that FAQ thing Kallas mentioned is a win for us. Sure, it sucks to need to cast on 1 die. But that's why your opponent has these stratagems in the first place, to hinder you. It's the EXACT point. The GK one is there to boost it, and there is one army that makes it slightly more difficult. 

 

A game that is competitive will NEVER be fully balanced, unless everything is the exact same, which is dull. As mentioned, the codices in the middle of the current release cycle, seem to be the culprits of skewing the balance badly. GK aren't very strong, granted, since they are one of the first. They aren't incredibly versatile, which hurts them badly. The later codices, such as Dark Angels and Blood Angels are a lot more rounded than any others so far, which is where I feel the sweet spot is. That's why you need to calm down and WAIT for the balancing pass in march to see what they do. If everything gets tuned to the level of DA/BA, I reckon this edition will be fair to most armies. 

[Kallas]

 

I wasn't talking about rules sequencing, in which you are basically correct, but the way The Deepest Shadow is worded used to (pre-FAQ) result in GK rolling a single d6.

This was not because of sequencing, and my previous post was ambiguous sorry, but because TDS says you roll 1d6; PC says (or said) roll 3d6 instead of 2, ergo, if you don't have 2 you don't get the 3.

That was RAW; the FAQ ruled in your favour.

Yep, I forgot about the "instead of 2" part in which case, yes the FAQ aids us slightly so I will concede that point. But it could have easily just removed the "instead of 2" and given us a slight boost rather than a smaller nerf.

 

Uh, that changes results in the exact same result, so..?

 

Either it works as is (drop to 1d6 because of TDS, then 2d6[DL] from PC) or...works as is. Unless you're saying that the GK one should overwrite TDS? In which case, why? Yes, you obviously want it to be better, but in the current form it gives a benefit to both (ie, both can use their respective stratagems to impact the final result) whereas making it so that PC 'wins' means that TDS would be wasted (ie, exactly what the pre-FAQ conflict resulted in for the GK), so this seems to be the best middle ground (middle ground as in neither one is a complete waste - yes, 2d6[DL] might not be great, but it is a boost when you'd otherwise be rolling just 1d6).

 

Honestly though, a lot of the early Codex stratagems need a look at. C:SM Orbital Bombardment is a :cuss: joke! 3CPs, once per game, Warlord can't move or shoot, a d6" radius(!!!) and then a 3/4/5+ to effect a unit based on size/character - it's pathetic! There's definitely room for improvement, I totally agree with you on that, just be a little patient, give GW another opportunity or two, send feedback and then if, after like two more balance passes, GK have been nerfed in to the dirt then you'll have good reason to cry foul; but if they've been brought up to a good standard then I think your early cries of wolf would be unfounded.

 

Simply: give it a little time; give GW feedback (particularly on things like the Smite changes), be patient.

 

Considering I stopped playing GW games for several years because of their awful balancing and rules writing in previous editions, 8th Ed is an indication of a better GW. Just give them time to actually release all of the Codexes (Codicies? Never been sure on that!) and then look at the game in a more complete state.

[Gentlemanloser]

When we can spam as many mw as nids with biovores ill start listening to people who think our smite spam is a bad as nid zoans...

 

Does no one face competent nid players? My psychic phase gets shut down. And i get out smited by the bugs.

 

/sigh

 

Next week i face 9 biovores. Want to know how much they cost?

Edited January 27, 2018 by Gentlemanloser

[Kallas]

When we can spam as many mw as nids with biovores ill start listening to people who think our smite spam is a bad as nid zoans...

 

Does no one face competent nid players? My psychic phase gets shut down. And i get out smited by the bugs.

 

/sigh

 

Next week i face 9 biovores. Want to know how much they cost?

 

Biovores are ridiculous for their output. Tyranid Smite spam is also ridiculous (Neurothropes are pretty ridiculous for their cost). What's your point? Tyranids have some overpowered stuff. Let's hope that gets toned down in the next pass.

[Gentlemanloser]

My point is folk still thinking gk smite is a problem.

 

And nids need any psychic protection.

 

They have enough. And can if they want match gk for psychic prowess.

 

While also being a horde army. Or an elite army. Or a shooty army. Or a cc army.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Gentlemanloser

[Capt. Mytre]

 

 

So.....I don’t have Chapter tactics? That is a fallacy. If I want to use my Crusader Squads I have to use my BT Chapter Tactics. Which rerolls charges are simply mediocre all said and done. Or BA and DA don’t have Chapter tactics if they use Sang Gaurd and Deathwing?

 

That is just...that is an inane argument. You have Chapter Tactics you might not like them but you have Chapter Tactics. And so we are clear you get deep striking for free.

You've misunderstood me, "lose chapter tactics" is about not having <CHAPTER>, it would be like if I was comparing IG and GK, you would lose <REGIMENT>, you gain GREY KNIGHT, which grants its own benefits.

*snip*

 

 

Again, you've misunderstood me. I was just making a point that we don't have X, it is replaced with Y. I don't care about if we have an option or not.

 

I'll try and be as clear as possible now. I'm just pointing out that you lose something and gain something else.

 

Imagine I'm comparing Dark Angels. You would "lose" DARK ANGELS, and "gain" GREY KNIGHTS. Opinions are irrelevant.

[TheCastigator]

GK don’t lose chapter tactics, brotherhood of psykers is our chapter tactic. It’s debatable if it is enough, but in a regular setting it is quite good. Out auras are fine, nothing amazing. We suffer in the stratagem department more than anything, Custodes have 3 pages, and most of them are seemingly above average.

 

Sorry, not sure why this posted now. Operator error I suppose.

Edited February 3, 2018 by TheCastigator

[Corvus Fortis]

At last had a game against Custodes today. Unfortunately, my opponent decided to bring not the most competitive list. 

 

Valoris

Vexilia (-1 to-hit)

5xCustodes

3xAllarius

Contemptor with MM

Land Raider

 

My list:

 

GMNDK - Sword, Incinerator, Psycannon, Sancturay (6+ FNP)

BroCap with Hammer and Curiass (Vortex)

2x 5-man Strikes, one with a Psilencer and one with a Hammer (Gate)

6-man Strike squad, 1 Psilencer (Gate)

VenDread - Las, ML (Astral Aim)

Razorback - TwinLas

Stormraven - Las, Typhoon, Hurricanes

 

Table had several ruins and barricades with a Large LoS block in the middle. Deployment zone were quarters, missions are Resupply Drop and maelstrom where you tell how many objectives you do every turn and gain so many points if successfull.

 

I won the first turn, he refused to intercept.  I positioned Dread, Razor and SR around GMNDK so they can see his LR, but all shooting took only 10 wounds away. My strikes dropped in front of LR and managed to charge it, shutting down his shooting. In return he dropped Allarus in my deploy and charged 6-man strike squad, taking them down. On my turn I kill Allarus easily with Vortex, Smites and shooting, -2 wounds to LR. Contemptor, Valoris, Vexilia and Custodes are slowly moving my way. On my turn thanks to BroCap I stip a couple wounds from Contemptor with Smites, LR down to 3 wounds.  Contemptor fails to do anything with shooting, so did LR. Other units still on move. On my turn I finish off the LR and bring Contemptor to 2 wounds. His turn - only moving and minor shooting my GMNDK with spears - I fail 2 out of 3 3+ saves and lose 4 wounds. I gate my GMNDK to objective in his deployment zone - it was the one left for Eternal war mission, my Razorback holds another. I finish Contemptor and strip 3 wounds off Vexilia because it was closest to GMNDK after dread gone. Custodes turn back and go now for GMNDK. I shoot custodes, killing one. They made 10+ charge to my GMNDK, but only two are left for that point. They take 2 more wounds form GMNDK (he did very good wounding rolls, but I made something like 5 3++ out of 6), in return he kills one. In my last turn I kill Varoris and last Custodes leaving only Vexilia with 3 wounds on the table. Final score is 49-12 in my favour.

 

Unfortunately, I didn't face any bikes, but he said he wanted to test LR without 5++. He also didn't use Vexilia teleportation tricks, but that is maybe because he had only 4 CP (most of them he spent for Invuln re-rolls and once to deny my Sanctuary). As I predicted, 4++ was meh. And I had only 6 lascannons on table - other armies can easily bring much more. What was really good is Vexilia. -1 to-hit really increases survivability. But anything that got out of aura went down very quickly. LR is trash as always - did nothing and died. And I thought Allarus would be more tanky - I didn't even had to spend all shooting or charge - and they were in cover. Astral Aim rocks - rare case but shooting through large LoS-block was amazing. Also note that I had  a lot of 1s and 2s for to-wound rolls and he was lucky with 5+ - that LR and Contemptor had to go down much faster. But I was lucky with maelstrom - always did promised objectives and got easy "priority orders". All in all, more testing is needed, but so far everything as I pedicted - Custodes go down quickly to multi-damage and very weak to Psychic Phase - he made only one 6+++ as far as I remember.

 

Next time we will test bikes.

[Helycon]

Allarus aren't much tankier, they just have one wound more. That's it. One wound. Otherwise, they're the same profile as Wardens. Lose an attacknd they're regular Custodes.

 

It's difficult to gauge by one battle, but Custodes seem to be doing exactly what they should: be melee monsters. Their boltweaponry will do fine against chaff and elite infantry, but they see to struggle when stuff gets tougher than that due to their lack of anti-tank.

 

Sounds like a fun match though, but sadly, not too close. Thanks for the report!

Edited February 4, 2018 by Helycon

[Gentlemanloser]

Last Thursday was second outing for my GK and Custodians combo. Bikes came yesterday. :)

 

Faced nids with our Chaos player watching.

 

Very close game. Nids went Kronos shooty gunline, and the game swing back and forth. Personally i feel the nid player made a few tactical mistakes, held a 20 man stealer squad for too long.

 

Was a new CA mission. So far most of them seem to have a few, flaws. This One was the raise objective one. But i couldn't rise any as my opponent placed all his just outside his deployment zone.

 

Game cane down to 5th turn. I had something like a 15vp lead. Nids had ignored the mission and just wanted to kill me.

 

End of t5 i had greyfax on 2w, 2 scouts and a vexila left.

 

Roll to continue. I get a 1 or 2 game ends and i win. Game continues and what the nids had left easily mop up.

 

I rolled a 1.

 

Take away from that match was a comment by the chaos guy when i tried to explain the match wasn't as lop sided as they had expected and the nids were catching up.

 

His reply was:

 

Only because you wasted points on the grey knights

 

 

Nids had left.

 

Exo with 5w. 2x warriors. 2x neurothropes. 3x zoanthropes. 5x hive guard. 3x biovores. Maybe some other sundry.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Gentlemanloser

[Danarc]

Great gentleman! What did you list?

 

About the chaos player, his joke is funny. But the emperor will not forgive him.

 

I’m persuaded that gk could be an interesting way for Custodes to beat theyr weakness. But I have to play some matches to be sure.

[Gentlemanloser]

My list was

 

HQ Shield Captain on Dawneagle, Hurricane Bolters 160

HQ Shield Captain on Dawneagle, Hurricane Bolters 160

HQ Shield Captain on Dawneagle, Hurricane Bolters 160

 

HQ Shield Captain in Allarus, Axe, Misericordia 148

Elite 4x Warden, Spears 260

Elite Vexilus, Magnifica, Misericordia 114

Elite Vexilus in Allarus, Defensor, Misericordia 124

 

HQ Greyfax 85

Troop 5x Scout, Bolters 55

 

HQ Voldus 190

Troop 5x Strike 105

Elite Doomglaive 168

Elite Doomglaive 168

Elite Apothecary, Hammer 103

 

Total 2000

 

I'm still tweaking. Next i think will be 2 GMNDK and a squad of retributors for home objective.

[Danarc]

Did you use 4 detachments?

[Gentlemanloser]

Yup.

 

We're not playing in any organised events, so don't feel the need to follow the suggested guidelines for such.  And use as many detachments as we want.