Thoughts after first game of 8th Edition

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

So, while I was on my winter break, I got my first game of 8th edition in. Here are some of my thoughts:

 

First, I need to get some housekeeping out of the way. I was borrowing IG from a friend, so I was limited in how I could build my force. I chose to run out of the Codex, Cadian Doctrine. We were playing power levels, and it was admittedly an apoc size game with 250PL per person, with 4 of us playing. 

 

My list consisted of:

 

Pask in a vanquisher

2x Vanquisher tank commanders

2 Company Commanders

 

2x Conscript squads (30 men)

2x Infantry squads (PG, Vox)

2x Scions (5 men, 2 PG)

 

3x Gryphonne Chimeras

 

3x Rough Riders

 

2x Leman Russ Conqueror Sqdn (2 each)

Basalisk battery (2 vehicles)

2x Manticore

 

master of ordnance

2x commissar

 

1 Vendetta

 

1 baneblade

 

1 knight crusader

 

So right off the bat, I did not make full use of orders, or deploy in a good way. I was rusty, and since it was a massive apoc game, it was very confusing. 

 

That said, The list I had was lackluster, since it was not the way I usually like to play. 

 

The board was a trench set up, and it was long, we had a good 24 inches of no man's land. It was Cadians and Dark Angels vs Eldar and Dark Eldar. We didn't make it through the whole game, since both sides had some rather crappy shooting.

 

I'm just going to highlight a few things that I thought after the game finished.

 

Conscripts shooting is awful, even with cadian re-rolls of 1's. They really need characters to buff them, and those orders to make them more effective to begin with.

 

Knights shouldn't be the vanguard, considering that their shooting is crap as they take wounds. They should serve best as fire support. 

 

Artillery was very effective, unfortunately I didn't have enough targets for my artillery, so I didn't get a ton of use out of it. 

 

Rough Riders are just bad, and apparently didn't make it into the codex. Death Riders are apparently the better way to go. 

 

All in all, I'm ok with the changes. I'm not satisfied with the way some of the units performed, but that might just be how I was using them. Also the fact that I didn't really have a ton of investment in the units. 

 

That said, It did get me excited to have my own Armies up to snuff, so I have begin building!

 

 

 

[WarriorFish]

Good to see you back Ulrik, you'll like 8th it has sped up the game a lot and given Guard a good hand Conscripts aren't really that useful any more, you may as well go for Infantry Squads to fill out those detachments and get more squads on the table. With a few officers around they will do well for you Artillery is good, as are Leman Russes though a bit pricey but worth it.

 

A lot has changed, so lists need to change with them but I think overall for the positive. For example taking lots of infantry is no longer a handicap

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I think that if I'd had my own army to use for that game I'd have been a bit happier. It was also the case that I was trying to coordinate my efforts with my teammate, and the fact that my opponents didn't bring loads of infantry.

[Tallarn Commander]

Ulrik, while Death Riders are superior to rough riders, rough riders are still worth taking. I encourage you to keep trying rough riders in your lists until you get some Death Riders.

 

My squad of 10 rough riders have outflanked and killed an enemy unit in every game in which they've made an appearance. Except for 2 games, against a Slaanesh force and against a Raven Guard force, when they died and did zilch. After making the initial kill my rough riders are either killed or too depleted to make another kill. But if they survive they run around getting linebreaker, tying up enemy units, and supporting my stormtroopers and my outflanking Blue Platoon in melee.

 

This edition they've killed:

-Bloat Drone

-Tac Marine squad

-War Walker

-Fire Warrior squad

-Long Fang squad

-Dunecrawler

-Termagaunt squad

[chamberlainskeksil]

My opinion is that 8th is at its best* around 750 to 1000 points with quite a bit of terrain on the table.  Enough that if you can cover a 12" or so of the opposing table edge with long ranges weapons, you shouldn't be able to cover another 12" from the same position.  So you have to choose the lanes of fire you want to cover and have to abandon one to cover another with the same unit.

It's good to hear the huge game was enjoyable enough, even with the 24" no mans land and multiple players.

 

* larger games are still good, but sometimes when you don't quite have enough units to cover all the avenues fire, both hold and go after objectives and so on, the hard choices you have to make can really add to the game.  And if you actually do something of note like take a defending unit out and capture an objective or successfully hold on to one, it can really matter.  It becomes the story of the game rather than just a relatively unimportant scoring of one objective among many by one unit among many.

[mertbl]

In my opinion an apoc sized game is not a good measure of the game or your faction. 250 PL really lets everyone bring a hard counter to everything.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I realize that 250PL is huge, and that Apoc doesn't give me a great sense of the state of the game in 8th. I think it was more a case of being stuck with a selection of units that lent themselves to a distinctly defensive style of play, was a large factor. Part of this was to get some experience with Artillery, to see if it was actually something I wanted to invest in, which it is. I do want some, a second wyvern, and a couple of basilisks, and a couple of manticores would build me a very sufficient artillery section. I'd say that's the one thing my army is lacking, is artillery. I just don't have enough big guns to counter some of the things that I could see on the table. I have tanks and knights, and plenty of big direct fire weaponry, but nothing that can really reach out and deal damage on an Apoc size board. 

 

I don't know if I mentioned it, but we also had a hard rule that disallowed strategems, which I feel really hurt me. Also, I feel that If I'd had my own army, I might have had more investment in the game itself, and would have known the army better and played better, simply due to being able to play to my strengths as a commander (I like aggressive play, which is why I use Krieg Rules for my Infantry and tanks and I use panzergrenadiers tactics). All of my models are Cadians, Kasrkin for my grenadiers, and regular shock troops for my infantry squads. 

 

This is not the force that I had to play with, so I tried to run a gunline, and I just don't understand gunlines, I was trained in fire and maneuver and that's what I like to play...

[chamberlainskeksil]

Stratagems are actually where a lot of the character of the game lies.  As well as some of the power of some of the units and even armies.  They are huge.  I think that probably made the biggest difference of all the factors you've brought up so far.  We played our first 10 or so games without them and then added them in and were like "whoa! now this game is awesome."

[Major_Gilbear]

Just reading your first post here, and I can't help but thing you started 8E with basically everything I would personally avoid:

 

• Massive game
• Player teams
• Unfocused list
• No army-specific rules (Regimental Doctrines, Orders, Stratagems, etc).

 

Regardless of your playstyle, I can easily see why that might colour your first impressions!

 

I'd maybe try a much smaller game (say around 1000pts), using more "typical" units, and play against one opponent with all your armies' rules. Also, a good amount of terrain helps as chamberlainskeksil suggests.

 

If you want non-FW Regiments from the main Codex that might suit your playstyle better than a gunline, perhaps have a look at Tallarn, Steel Legion, and Catachan.

 

Finally, I'd hold off buying more vehicles (especially the Wyvern) until you've played some more games under more usual circumstances. Not trying to tell what to play or like here, but you may well find for example that a unit of Mortars does everything you need of the Wyvern for cheaper (in both money and points).

 

I look forward to hearing your thoughts after some more games! :) 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I really like big games for Guard. I don't to play small games with them. They lend themselves to big games. I'd be fine with playing small model count games with my Raven Guard though, since I don't have a huge array of toys for them, and I will likely not ever. I plan on expanding them only a little with some Primaris stuff. 

 

From a Collecting perspective, my army needs more artillery. That said, my reliance on artillery once the game begins will likely diminish, and I'll probably make more use of the preliminary bombardment strategem, and use my direct fire cannons more. I have 2 squads of mortars so I don't find myself needing that second wyvern immediately. 

[FallenSoldiers]

I honestly -hate- the preliminary bombardment strat. It’s too expensive for a 1/6 chance to do 1 mortal wound to a squad. If it scaled depending on the size of the squad maybe, but I’ve dealt st the most 2 MWs, and I think that killed 2 boyz. Hell, I can do that for free with lasguns easily enough.

 

Artillery does such work though. I love the Basilisk for the AP-3! Digs Terminators and Obliterators out of cover nicely! The lowly mortar squads are awesome at thinning the ranks of chaff too!

[duz_]

I've tried stratagem a couple of times now too. I too find it a somewhat lackluster, as fun and thematic as it seems. 2CP would be more reasonable

[Tirak]

I use Grand Strategist religiously, so Prelim Bombardment generally doesn't cost me much anyway. Occasionally it does something useful.