Primaris and Scouts

[BitsHammer]

Anyone else feel like Scouts fit into a Primaris army? I don't mean in terms of filling gaps but more thematically. We don't have any word from on high (aka the GW writing staff) that there is a difference between how Primaris are trained upon induction into a chapter and how regular Astartes are.

 

Likewise, I feel like having the difference between Scouts and Primaris in terms of stats helps cement the feeling of someone who is untrained versus fully trained (unlike regular Marines who only feel like they get to wear the better armour).

 

Additionally, with no word that the Primaris chapters deviate from the codex any stronger than their parent chapters do, I don't see a reason why they wouldn't have a Scout company unless their genesires don't (Space Wolves, Black Templars if Cawl decides to give them a successor).

 

Mix in chapters like the Raven Guard ad their successors who have long scout training cycles to drill in the stealth and ambushing knowledge that the scout is supposed to know and I just feel like Primaris armies/chapters should have Scouts just like regular chapters.

 

Anyone else feel differently on this?

[Bryan Blaire]

Why would they not have Scouts? Primaris are developed over the exact same period of time implanting the organs as an Astartes does, per the Index Astartes article.

[Prot]

Every game I use Scouts with Primaris. I think you have to. I’ve also tried to read everything surrounding Primaris, including and up to ‘Crusade’ and I can’t find any reason why you couldn’t include them both in an army from a fluff perspective.

 

Sincerely, you really should use them. Playing hardcore Primaris is tough enough. Scouts help.

[BitsHammer]

I definitely don't disagree that pure Primaris is definitely harder than regular Marines due to the limited wargear options (and in turn, limited strategems due to some of them only working with specific options you won't have), but while I have started accepting the scouts as part of a Primaris army, not due to their rules or wargear they can provide, but rather due to the lore they fit into I've noticed many don't consider Scouts in their Primaris only armies, hence this topic. I'm basically trying to figure out why the lowly scout is overlooked as a legitimate option for the army.

[Ogun]

The lore is not crystal clear on this issue, to say the least. There is a very strong argument to be made that the Scouts in the codex are not destined to be Primaris though. The Magnificat and the Sinew Coils are both implanted very early on in the creation cycle, so any scout on his way to becoming a Primaris should be both bigger and stronger than his regular compatriots. The wording of the Blood Angels codex also suggests that the Primaris and Scout creation processes are separate. The former involves 'machines', so it is possible that they spend time in pods, or something of that ilk. Hopefully GW will eventually clarify. For the moment though I would be cautious about including Scouts if you are wanting to play a thematically pure Primaris force, or an Ultima Founding chapter. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

I'd say it's only a matter of time before we receive some Primaris-Scout units. Basically the only argument against them existing at the moment is that we don't have models/rules for them, but background-wise we're told that Primaris are created the exact same way, they just have additional organs. Therefore, it follows that there are Primaris Scouts, we just haven't seen them yet.

[Bryan Blaire]

Does anyone here actually think that the process of making any Astartes at all (standard Astartes or Primaris) doesn't involve the use of "machines"? Also, it is plausible that any size increases don't make the Primaris larger than any other scouts until the standard Ossmodula and Biscopea have completed their usual functions (in the Ossmodula's case, at least two years from implantation). So while late-stage Primaris Scouts may in fact be larger than standard Astartes Scouts, those within the initial two-three years may be of identical size and growth.

 

Also, the Blood Angels have had a different method of producing Marines ever since the process of them "sleeping in a sarcophagus" to make a novitiate into a full-fledged Scout was written. That takes a year, they come out transformed with the gene-seed organs grown in them (although somewhat vague on which ones/how many of them), and yet they still must take time to train as a Scout before becoming a Marine.

 

Additionally, rules-wise, what would "Primaris Scouts" have that a standard Scout does not? An additional Wound? It doesn't seem like it would make sense to also give them an extra Attack, because they aren't fully trained. Rules-wise, there may not be enough granularity to really show exactly what the difference between standard Scouts and Primaris-organ Scouts would be.

 

Now, it would be cool to get some new Scout models, regardless of whether they are larger or specifically Primaris-generation oriented - the current Scout models could still be improved.

[BitsHammer]

I was reading through the codex on my lunch break today and noticed this section:

 

The Horus Heresy had revealed weaknesses in the gene-seed of several Space Marine Legions. These defects had been exacerbated by the accelerated gene-seed cultivation techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength. Guilliman believed that the Chaos Powers were able to exploit the resultant physical and mental corruption to turn Horus’ troops against the Emperor. So
had the Emperor’s great plan contained the seeds of its own downfall.

One of the key objectives of the new Codex Astartes was to recognise and expunge these genetic weaknesses. As a result, the Codex Astartes decreed that Space Marines would forever more be created and trained in a more measured fashion.

So yeah, I think we're keeping some kind of scout unit going forward, even if the scouts we have now aren't the same as Primaris scouts in the future. That said, I'd say for now the scouts we have access to are valid Primaris options.

[Dracos]

I'm not sure I agree with them, as I see Reivers fulfilling the Primaris scout role - but I like these arguments none the less and given the current information, sure can't find a good one to refute them :D

[Blindhamster]

The reiver and scout have a someone similar role, but are very different in their place within a chapter as well as their skill set and tabletop role

[BitsHammer]

The reiver and scout have a someone similar role, but are very different in their place within a chapter as well as their skill set and tabletop role

That's the theme of the Primaris so far: similar roles to existing models, but different executions.

[Stoic Raptor]

I'd say it's only a matter of time before we receive some Primaris-Scout units.

background-wise we're told that Primaris are created the exact same way, they just have additional organs. 

 

We had hoped that the Reivers were the "Primaris Scouts" but it's never been explicilty stated.

As for creation, there's a difference between how they are made, how they are trained, and how they gain combat experience.  As others have pointed out, the implants may be the same but they're basically made in a vat and receive hypno-training during the creation process.

 

While it's possible that they may be employed as scouts to gain necessary experience in battle, nothing's been said one way or the other.  However, the fact that Reivers exist, and basically supplant the role of Scouts, leads me to believe that "Primaris scouts" are either unnecessary, or non-existent.

[Blindhamster]

 

I'd say it's only a matter of time before we receive some Primaris-Scout units.

background-wise we're told that Primaris are created the exact same way, they just have additional organs. 

 

We had hoped that the Reivers were the "Primaris Scouts" but it's never been explicilty stated.

As for creation, there's a difference between how they are made, how they are trained, and how they gain combat experience.  As others have pointed out, the implants may be the same but they're basically made in a vat and receive hypno-training during the creation process.

 

While it's possible that they may be employed as scouts to gain necessary experience in battle, nothing's been said one way or the other.  However, the fact that Reivers exist, and basically supplant the role of Scouts, leads me to believe that "Primaris scouts" are either unnecessary, or non-existent.

 

 

When i spoke with Guy Haley, he said that primaris are made in many different ways by the time of dark imperium, different chapters have their own take on it, not all of them are made in a vat in a year, the genesis machines were just a way to effectively speed up the process and get things rolling, but many wont be created in that manner.

 

As such, it's probably quite reasonable to assume that some chapters do it "the slow way" organ by organ over a period of time, with the three new organs just slotted into the process.

 

Likewise, some chapters aren't going to go for the hypno training, because they have their own methods.

 

In Devastation of Baal, for example, we see a primaris marine being trained by a sanguinary priest, whereas the first primaris apothecaries would have been programmed with all the required knowledge and skills.

[Dracos]

That makes perfect GW sense to me. Go with a basic storyline but leave options open for fanfic and players to "rp" and army build in ways that keep the customer happy (as possible).

 

Currently I'm allowing myself one unit of "standard" space marine in my DIY Primaris build. I'm just trying to decide which one makes the most sense. Nothing out of the Elite slots because ... Rievers :)

[BitsHammer]

That makes perfect GW sense to me. Go with a basic storyline but leave options open for fanfic and players to "rp" and army build in ways that keep the customer happy (as possible).

 

Currently I'm allowing myself one unit of "standard" space marine in my DIY Primaris build. I'm just trying to decide which one makes the most sense. Nothing out of the Elite slots because ... Rievers

 

Scouts make the most sense in that case (in my not-so-humble opinion). Plus you gain the Scout Landspeeder as a way to support your army as well.

[Dracos]

Sadly Ive never warmed to any version of a scout model. That some point they make one in true scale (we have to assume not Primaris Scout) I'd definitely give it another look. :)

[Stoic Raptor]

I'll agree that Scouts could use better models (though the Scout Bikes are pretty spiffy), but I can't see omitting Scouts from a list entirely just to stay Primaris - they're just too useful.

But I really was hoping that Reivers were going to be the Primaris answer to Scouts.

[Ishagu]

Scout faces are pretty horrible and the models don't go together well, but aside from that still look OK, imo.

 

I put together some Reivers a week ago. Each model could be made up of as many as 14 pieces which is pretty crazy and was time consuming.

[Dracos]

Scout faces are pretty horrible and the models don't go together well, but aside from that still look OK, imo.

I put together some Reivers a week ago. Each model could be made up of as many as 14 pieces which is pretty crazy and was time consuming.

So ... carbines or knife and pistol? :)

 

Just curious because I use to use Scouts occasionally and I liked the bolter version best. Been thinking carbines for the Reivers rule as cool.

[Stoic Raptor]

Reivers really work best with the carbines, honestly.  You won't get the best use out of them with the pistol and the knife.

[BitsHammer]

Reivers really work best with the carbines, honestly.  You won't get the best use out of them with the pistol and the knife.

Drop in on top of Terrain near an enemy unit. Since unit distance now works via a three dimensional space instead of a flat horizontal they can be outside of 9" but make a 3" charge due to having grappling hooks. The extra attacks from the knives can make a difference for this approach though.

 

Basically the question of kit is how you intend to use them: like Space Marine storm troopers or as some kind of Space Marine spider ninja. :P

[Ishagu]

I equipped mine with Carbines. Two squads of 5, the Sgt has a Carbine and Knife.

[Dracos]

Sold. Actually bought. The game store still owes me a 10 man squad of Intercessors but got the Reivers. Time to start batch painting on my next day off.