Codexes: Imperial Propaganda? Black Library books: Truth?

[Brother Lunkhead]

Being one of BL's best (IMO..... subjective) and best selling (not subjective) authors, poor Dan Abnett is always in the crosshairs of critics and snipers (or critical snipers). But to be truthful, there are fluff inconsistencies in his writing (as in all fiction writers). Priad taking out a substantial force of Dark Eldar on his solo mission to Baal Solok in 'Brothers of the Snake', Gaunt's Ghosts rescuing Col Ortiz and the Detzok 17th by wiping out a squad of Khorne Berzerkers in 'Ghostmaker' (I think it's 'Ghostmaker'.... it's been a few years since I read it)..... I could go on. I curse Dan Abnett on a regular basis, but mostly for sucking me into this accursed universe. Abnett is such a  fine writer that I don't even notice when it happens and I don't mind either. Other writers, not so forgiving. 

 

Pardon my ramble..... the point is that the fluff that we hold so dear (I do to) is just stuff that moves the story along as far as the writers are concerned. The writer doesn't care if Petrok and Damocles Squad killed two hundred or two thousand Dark Eldar at Eidon (sorry Dan). The important thing is that it moves the story along and it sounds cool (it really does). That's why fluff is rather subjective stuff. When it comes to fluff, the GW codices are not more accurate or truthful than the BL fiction. It's all there to keep the story moving and it's all true  

Edited February 15, 2018 by Brother Lunkhead

[Moonreaper666]

Being one of BL's best (IMO..... subjective) and best selling (not subjective) authors, poor Dan Abnett is always in the crosshairs of critics and snipers (or critical snipers). But to be truthful, there are fluff inconsistencies in his writing (as in all fiction writers). Priad taking out a substantial force of Dark Eldar on his solo mission to Baal Solok in 'Brothers of the Snake', Gaunt's Ghosts rescuing Col Ortiz and the Detzok 17th by wiping out a squad of Khorne Berzerkers in 'Ghostmaker' (I think it's 'Ghostmaker'.... it's been a few years since I read it)..... I could go on. I curse Dan Abnett on a regular basis, but mostly for sucking me into this accursed universe. Abnett is such a fine writer that I don't even notice when it happens and I don't mind either. Other writers, not so forgiving.

 

Pardon my ramble..... the point is that the fluff that we hold so dear (I do to) is just stuff that moves the story along as far as the writers are concerned. The writer doesn't care if Petrok and Damocles Squad killed two hundred or two thousand Dark Eldar at Eidon (sorry Dan). The important thing is that it moves the story along and it sounds cool (it really does). That's why fluff is rather subjective stuff. When it comes to fluff, the GW codices are not more accurate or truthful than the BL fiction. It's all there to keep the story moving and it's all true

Is he and the other writers improving their writing over time to be more consistent and more realistic?

[Indefragable]

1. Yes, Codices are gaming/hobby materials first and foremost

 

2. Whatever pieces of Codices you want to consider in-universe information can be likened to history books that say “and then the Soviet victory at Stalingrad begin to turn the tide against Nazi Germany.” Any piece of literature that wants to unpack that single sentence will give a far more compelling and depressing perspective about what happened there.

[Ishagu]

Guilliman being almost killed by 10 alpha legionaries was a bit much. He wasn't armed or armoured, but still a bit of a stretch.

It was weird that everyone in the book was impressed by this, as if Primarchs weren't all that much. These ARE the same being that casually flip Landraiders over and survive battles with Titans :-/

[MrDarth151]

 

Is he and the other writers improving their writing over time to be more consistent and more realistic?

 

Eh, no. Realism is an inherent enemy of Grimdarkness, therefore the theme is more valuable than the quality.

 

Abnett is the closest thing to realism you will get from Black Library, but that is because he is the most divergent out of all of the authors.

 

 

 

Guilliman being almost killed by 10 alpha legionaries was a bit much. He wasn't armed or armoured, but still a bit of a stretch.

It was weird that everyone in the book was impressed by this, as if Primarchs weren't all that much. These ARE the same being that casually flip Landraiders over and survive battles with Titans :-/

 

 

Because that's actually an impressive feat? There is a difference between leading a Legion in full panoply of war, and being ambushed without weapons and armour by a full squad of Astartes at close quarters. 

 

Or does ability to flip Land Raiders suddenly grants immunity from Bolters?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Eh, I wouldn't say realism is an enemy, after all, A D-B's books have been pretty "realistic", while still sticking to the theme of grimdarkness, as have the two Wraight books set on Terra.

 

 

 

It was weird that everyone in the book was impressed by this, as if Primarchs weren't all that much. These ARE the same being that casually flip Landraiders over and survive battles with Titans :-/

Well, the Primarchs are still flesh and blood, which bolters are pretty good at shredding. He took down a squad of assassins in power armour, armed with bolters, with himself in nothing but civilian clothing and his bare hands? Primarchs can flip Land Raiders when in their armour, which is noted as boosting strength. They survive battles with Titans by having their own support destroy them before they get annihilated. They're incredibly powerful, but they're not invincible.

[Robbienw]

 

Guilliman being almost killed by 10 alpha legionaries was a bit much. He wasn't armed or armoured, but still a bit of a stretch.

It was weird that everyone in the book was impressed by this, as if Primarchs weren't all that much. These ARE the same being that casually flip Landraiders over and survive battles with Titans :-/

Yeah it just felt a bit silly to me. No problem with bolters wounding a primarch, but just 10 Marines in that close to guilliman, you'd think they would have been ripped to pieces before they were able to get off more than a few shots.

 

When you have other things in heresy novels like Perturabo solo smashing up 40 imperial fist terminators, corax singlehandedly roflstomping dozens of gal vorbak, curze slicing through ultramarines and dark angels like it is going out of fashion, and a full company of night lords being needed to drive the Lion away before he could finish curze off, it's seems a bit inconsistent.

 

Some of the kills of Vulkan in Unremembered empire where a bit too easy as well.

[MrDarth151]

Eh, I wouldn't say realism is an enemy, after all, A D-B's books have been pretty "realistic", while still sticking to the theme of grimdarkness, as have the two Wraight books set on Terra.

 

Agree to disagree. Lack of realism was and remains my foremost criticism of Black Library authors, and none of which I have read have been immune to it.

 

Honestly, it's a weird mix of people being simultaneously hyper competent and incredibly incompetent. One moment, they achieve miracles beyond anything we could even imagine, and in another achieving results on par with XXth century Earth countries is a problem.

 

Not like those you've brought up are excepted. ADB's Emperor is in dire need of reading some material on authoritarian model of rule, because he is poor tyrant at best (Mind, this is not limited to him. I cannot think of someone who would actually portray the Emperor as decent ruler, even though persecution of Great Crusade alone requires him to have transcend human intellect.). Wraight's Terra is Grimdark and all, but the fact that it took them a decade to recruit something around 0.000000001 percent of population for something as vital as the defence of Cadia puts any claim of realism in grave, shot and dead.

 

You cannot have people achieve results that are positively inhuman, and then portray them as below average when compared to our historical examples.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

 

Guilliman being almost killed by 10 alpha legionaries was a bit much. He wasn't armed or armoured, but still a bit of a stretch.

It was weird that everyone in the book was impressed by this, as if Primarchs weren't all that much. These ARE the same being that casually flip Landraiders over and survive battles with Titans :-/

Yeah it just felt a bit silly to me. No problem with bolters wounding a primarch, but just 10 Marines in that close to guilliman, you'd think they would have been ripped to pieces before they were able to get off more than a few shots.

 

When you have other things in heresy novels like Perturabo solo smashing up 40 imperial fist terminators, corax singlehandedly roflstomping dozens of gal vorbak, curze slicing through ultramarines and dark angels like it is going out of fashion, and a full company of night lords being needed to drive the Lion away before he could finish curze off, it's seems a bit inconsistent.

 

Some of the kills of Vulkan in Unremembered empire where a bit too easy as well.

 

 

Again, all those examples are Primarchs in armour, with weapons. That's like arguing that a SWAT member should be able to take out numerous armed assailants shooting at him while only wearing a bath robe. Could Guilliman have killed them? Yeah, the novel even points that out. It's the fact that there's 10 of them, able to provide covering fire to each other, so if Guilliman just rushed them, he'd kill a couple, but be shot to pieces by the rest.

 

Primarchs are strong, but a headshot with a bolter will kill them dead, and they're not going to be doing so great after being shot in the chest numerous times without armour either. They still need organs, after all.

[Indefragable]

To me, something doesn’t have to be realistic so long as there’s some sort of established baseline to compare things to. It’s inconsistency that is frustrating. The fact that there have been so many writers doing so many different things without some sort of central brain keeping things in line is I think where most of the frustrations come from.

[MrDarth151]

To me, something doesn’t have to be realistic so long as there’s some sort of established baseline to compare things to. It’s inconsistency that is frustrating. The fact that there have been so many writers doing so many different things without some sort of central brain keeping things in line is I think where most of the frustrations come from.

 

Just to clarify: I don't need full realism either. However, there is a certain point after which suspension of disbelief just snaps, and I would like for the writers to not go that far.

[Gree]

 

 

 

Guilliman being almost killed by 10 alpha legionaries was a bit much. He wasn't armed or armoured, but still a bit of a stretch.

It was weird that everyone in the book was impressed by this, as if Primarchs weren't all that much. These ARE the same being that casually flip Landraiders over and survive battles with Titans :-/

 

Yeah it just felt a bit silly to me. No problem with bolters wounding a primarch, but just 10 Marines in that close to guilliman, you'd think they would have been ripped to pieces before they were able to get off more than a few shots.

 

When you have other things in heresy novels like Perturabo solo smashing up 40 imperial fist terminators, corax singlehandedly roflstomping dozens of gal vorbak, curze slicing through ultramarines and dark angels like it is going out of fashion, and a full company of night lords being needed to drive the Lion away before he could finish curze off, it's seems a bit inconsistent.

 

Some of the kills of Vulkan in Unremembered empire where a bit too easy as well.

 

 

Again, all those examples are Primarchs in armour, with weapons. That's like arguing that a SWAT member should be able to take out numerous armed assailants shooting at him while only wearing a bath robe. Could Guilliman have killed them? Yeah, the novel even points that out. It's the fact that there's 10 of them, able to provide covering fire to each other, so if Guilliman just rushed them, he'd kill a couple, but be shot to pieces by the rest.

 

Primarchs are strong, but a headshot with a bolter will kill them dead, and they're not going to be doing so great after being shot in the chest numerous times without armour either. They still need organs, after all.

 

 

Conversely, Fulgrim takes a blow to his unarmored face powerful enough to crush Terminator armor. It barely bruises his flesh.

 

Burning light and sound filled the Iron Forge, the weapons roaring as the unimaginable forces harnessed in their creation were unleashed. Ferrus dropped his guard and hammered his fist into Fulgrim’s face, the force of the blow enough to crush the helmet of Tactical Dreadnought armour, but barely enough to bruise the flesh of a primarch. Fulgrim rode the blow and smashed his forehead into his brother’s face, spinning on his heel and slashing his red hot blade towards Ferrus’s throat. Fulgrim-pg.451

 

Going by Fulgrim's durability feat, a bolter round, even to the head, would not be a great danger for a Primarch. A unarmored and unprepared Fulgrim has a similar feat later on when Julius Kaesoron hits him with a power fist hit strong enough to rupture a battle tank armor.

 

Of course, inconsistency in Primarch's abilities is hardly new to Black Library. Abnett seems to like having Primarchs being threatened by ''basic'' weaponry. Vulkan get's repeatedly killed by a regular human wielding shuriken weaponry.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Gree

[Lord_Caerolion]

Fulgrim was one of the early Horus Heresy novels, and they seem to have had a reconsideration of Legion strength and Primarch capabilities since then, both increasing Legion sizes and decreasing the feats of some of the Primarchs. I think it's a little ridiculous to have Primarchs that strong, after all, as if they're that strong, why bother with armour? Why not just walk naked out towards the foe, only for even their anti-tank weaponry (stuff needed to "crush" Terminator armour, given it's essentially vehicle armour) merely bounces off them, and watch the enemy surrender immediately?

[Gree]

Fulgrim was one of the early Horus Heresy novels, and they seem to have had a reconsideration of Legion strength and Primarch capabilities since then, both increasing Legion sizes and decreasing the feats of some of the Primarchs. I think it's a little ridiculous to have Primarchs that strong, after all, as if they're that strong, why bother with armour? Why not just walk naked out towards the foe, only for even their anti-tank weaponry (stuff needed to "crush" Terminator armour, given it's essentially vehicle armour) merely bounces off them, and watch the enemy surrender immediately?

 

Why not wear armor? It's not like it burdens them. Power armor is already a second skin for normal Astartes. Also, armor also contains various communication devices that would be useful for commanding a force. Not to mention the existence of superheavy vehicles such as Titans and the Xenos equivalents, of which added protection is always sensible.

 

I suppose you can find it ridiculous, but my point is that I an quite happily offer other feats that are quite inconsistent with Guilliman's glass jaw. I don't really think it's a symptom of early Heresy novels. After all, the Reflection Crack'd has a similar feat by Fulgrim and it's one of the later Heresy entries. McNeill and Thrope tend to write their Primarchs as this mythic juggernauts who can fight whole armies. Conversely, Abnett is the one who has a track record of Primarchs being threatened by more mundane threats.

 

I cannot speak to the opinions of anyone else, but I quite prefer the more powerful take that Graham McNeill and other Heresy authors to when writing the Primarchs. I've already thought Abnett's take on them really undersold them as these superhuman demigods.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Gree

[Robbienw]

 

 

 

 

Guilliman being almost killed by 10 alpha legionaries was a bit much. He wasn't armed or armoured, but still a bit of a stretch.

It was weird that everyone in the book was impressed by this, as if Primarchs weren't all that much. These ARE the same being that casually flip Landraiders over and survive battles with Titans :-/

Yeah it just felt a bit silly to me. No problem with bolters wounding a primarch, but just 10 Marines in that close to guilliman, you'd think they would have been ripped to pieces before they were able to get off more than a few shots.

 

When you have other things in heresy novels like Perturabo solo smashing up 40 imperial fist terminators, corax singlehandedly roflstomping dozens of gal vorbak, curze slicing through ultramarines and dark angels like it is going out of fashion, and a full company of night lords being needed to drive the Lion away before he could finish curze off, it's seems a bit inconsistent.

 

Some of the kills of Vulkan in Unremembered empire where a bit too easy as well.

Again, all those examples are Primarchs in armour, with weapons

Well aware of that. Still feels wrong though. Lack of armour is not going is not going to slow him down, and not going to make him much less stronger or the alpha legion Marines anymore accurate when facing a primarch at full speed.

 

When you have examples of primarchs fighting each other at such fast speed you can't see their blows landing it just feels silly.

 

Would have been much better if say, the alpha legion Marines had managed to smuggle in a vortex grenade or something extremely explosive and managed to would him with that.

[Vanger]

he idea of  propaganda vs truth is nice, but ultimately falls flat if we view the big picture. In an interview with Guy Haley, he mentions that only the Horus Heresy has anything like a bible with timelines and flowcharts what is happening when and who is where, so authors don't contradict each other. But in 40K there is no such thing. The background is vague and has decades of contradictory and retconned fiction.And there is no authority who could say, this is what really happened, this is how it's like. And then there is stuff like that C.S. Goto wrote. Yeah... those books were clearly not edited to fit the background :D

[Withershadow]

Codex: wild propaganda

Books: loose second-hand reports

My headfluff: iron-wrought canon.

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

Being one of BL's best (IMO..... subjective) and best selling (not subjective) authors, poor Dan Abnett is always in the crosshairs of critics and snipers (or critical snipers). But to be truthful, there are fluff inconsistencies in his writing (as in all fiction writers). Priad taking out a substantial force of Dark Eldar on his solo mission to Baal Solok in 'Brothers of the Snake', Gaunt's Ghosts rescuing Col Ortiz and the Detzok 17th by wiping out a squad of Khorne Berzerkers in 'Ghostmaker' (I think it's 'Ghostmaker'.... it's been a few years since I read it)..... I could go on. I curse Dan Abnett on a regular basis, but mostly for sucking me into this accursed universe. Abnett is such a fine writer that I don't even notice when it happens and I don't mind either. Other writers, not so forgiving.

 

Pardon my ramble..... the point is that the fluff that we hold so dear (I do to) is just stuff that moves the story along as far as the writers are concerned. The writer doesn't care if Petrok and Damocles Squad killed two hundred or two thousand Dark Eldar at Eidon (sorry Dan). The important thing is that it moves the story along and it sounds cool (it really does). That's why fluff is rather subjective stuff. When it comes to fluff, the GW codices are not more accurate or truthful than the BL fiction. It's all there to keep the story moving and it's all true

Is he and the other writers improving their writing over time to be more consistent and more realistic?

 

 

Unfortunately, I don't think so. We have of coarse seen some great new talent come onto the scene, like AD-B and Chris Wraight. But I don't think you'll find any improvement in consistency or realism from anyone. That's not to say that there is no consistency or realism. They all do a pretty good job, especially when it comes to consistency (no one is wildly off the mark). 

 

Fluff will always be primarily a tool for storytelling and consistency (at least so far when it comes to 40K) will be a close second with realism being a distant third. We should be thankful that we don't see the level of inconsistency that we have in other franchises...... Star Trek immediately comes to mind. It's latest incarnation is almost unrecognizable.

 

Perhaps it should be up to us, the fans to look critically at all of the material and decide for ourselves what is consistent, what is realistic, and what is the truth, or more to the point, what it should look like.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Brother Lunkhead

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

 

Being one of BL's best (IMO..... subjective) and best selling (not subjective) authors, poor Dan Abnett is always in the crosshairs of critics and snipers (or critical snipers). But to be truthful, there are fluff inconsistencies in his writing (as in all fiction writers). Priad taking out a substantial force of Dark Eldar on his solo mission to Baal Solok in 'Brothers of the Snake', Gaunt's Ghosts rescuing Col Ortiz and the Detzok 17th by wiping out a squad of Khorne Berzerkers in 'Ghostmaker' (I think it's 'Ghostmaker'.... it's been a few years since I read it)..... I could go on. I curse Dan Abnett on a regular basis, but mostly for sucking me into this accursed universe. Abnett is such a fine writer that I don't even notice when it happens and I don't mind either. Other writers, not so forgiving.

 

Pardon my ramble..... the point is that the fluff that we hold so dear (I do to) is just stuff that moves the story along as far as the writers are concerned. The writer doesn't care if Petrok and Damocles Squad killed two hundred or two thousand Dark Eldar at Eidon (sorry Dan). The important thing is that it moves the story along and it sounds cool (it really does). That's why fluff is rather subjective stuff. When it comes to fluff, the GW codices are not more accurate or truthful than the BL fiction. It's all there to keep the story moving and it's all true

Is he and the other writers improving their writing over time to be more consistent and more realistic?

Unfortunately, I don't think so. We have of coarse seen some great new talent come onto the scene, like AD-B and Chris Wraight. But I don't think you'll find any improvement in consistency or realism from anyone. That's not to say that there is no consistency or realism. They all do a pretty good job, especially when it comes to consistency (no one is wildly off the mark).

 

Fluff will always be primarily a tool for storytelling and consistency (at least so far when it comes to 40K) will be a close second with realism being a distant third. We should be thankful that we don't see the level of inconsistency that we have in other franchises...... Star Trek immediately comes to mind. It's latest incarnation is almost unrecognizable.

 

Perhaps it should be up to us, the fans to look critically at all of the material and decide for ourselves what is consistent, what is realistic, and what is the truth, or more to the point, what it should look like.

We can't demand more consistent and more plausible writing from the writers?

 

I don't want them to :cuss up the Siege of Terra and the performance of the Primarchs and named characters?

 

How do we tell them our grievances and criticism?

[Withershadow]

 

 They all do a pretty good job, especially when it comes to consistency (no one is wildly off the mark). 

 

Except, Abnett, who writes in an alternate universe. Or Graham McNeil, whose Outcast Dead is probably the most wild out there example of timeline and other messed ups.

[MrDarth151]

 

McNeill and Thrope tend to write their Primarchs as this mythic juggernauts who can fight whole armies. Conversely, Abnett is the one who has a track record of Primarchs being threatened by more mundane threats.

 

Thorpe? Tell me, have you read Ravenlord?

 

 

 

We can't demand more consistent and more plausible writing from the writers?

 

The only man from BL I've known to react to fan commentary is Laurie Goulding, and considering his reaction seemed to be "If I don't like your fan theories, I will commission a story to disprove it.", I think we are better of right now.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Moonreaper666: I'm not saying we should just accept what's given to us. If you don't like it you should definitely voice it in whatever form you deem appropriate. I'm just saying "don't hold your breath". Within whatever guidelines GW and BL set, authors will write what they want and as long as the books sell. In the grand scheme of things I don't think this is a bad thing. Writers should be allowed the freedom to write what they will, and as long as they are generally respectful of the lore, respectful of the fan base, and have something good and interesting to the 40k universe I'll buy their books. When that stops, I stop. Some BL writers I stay away from because I don't like the way they write (style, plot lines, etc), and some of these guys are very popular.

 

I do understand the frustration (I've felt it myself). What works for me (I speak solely for myself) is keeping in mind that the GW and BL books are not Encyclopedia Britannica filled with facts and figures but works of fiction and rule books spiced up with works of fiction. There are many things in 40k that I would dearly love to be shown more realistically and consistently, but I'm not likely to see it, so I'm not holding MY breath. I just keep juggling it around in my head and try to make some sense of it..... or sometimes I just rage and stomp my feet (that works for me too sometimes) 

 

You make good points brother  and I hope I've explained my position and didn't ramble too much.

 

Withershadow: Your hatred is deliciously tactile and I salute your passion. Abnett and McNeil are two of my favorite BL writers and the primary culprits responsible for sucking me into this hobby. But I've had my issues with them too.

 

For Dan Abnett it's 'Unremembered Empire' I don't know if it was Dan or the HH Cabal as a whole who came up with Imperium Secundus, but really???.....        I don't think being mind wiped and turned into a servitor could make me forget this not so great idea.

 

For Graham McNeil it's 'Chapter's Due' or 'How Marneus Calgar Gets Half the Ultramarines Killed'. I almost scoured my entire Ultramarine Army and turned them into Word Bearers (just kidding about the Word Bearers part) after reading this book.

 

Since these guys are still two of my favorite BL authors I feel comfortable criticizing some of their works (other writers I could go on and on about why I don't like them and probably never will, shall remain unnamed) but I still read their books with great enjoyment. Even your favorite writer isn't going to make you happy all of the time. But in spite of a few issues (of which I could ramble on and on) I have with Dan and Graham I think they have added some great lore, and the 40k universe of much richer for them.

 

As with all things posted, it's just my opinion 

[Gentlemanloser]

Laurie. Wasnt he the writer for Draigo v Morty?

 

Where the whole set up was the previous Supreme Grand Master died because he wasnt wearing his helmet in battle.

 

A fight that took 100 years and the sacrifice of countless worlds to set up.

 

And The guy doing all this, the supreme grand master, simply decided to teleport into battle without a cussing helmet.

 

And got plague breathed to death.

 

That Laurie?

Edited February 17, 2018 by Gentlemanloser

[MrDarth151]

Laurie. Wasnt he the writer for Draigo v Morty?

 

Where the whole set up was the previous Supreme Grand Master died because he wasnt wearing his helmet in battle.

 

A fight that took 100 years and the sacrifice of countless worlds to set up.

 

And The guy doing all this, the supreme grand master, simply decided to teleport into battle without a cussing helmet.

 

And got plague breathed to death.

 

That Laurie?

 

Well, I can't say to be unbiased on the subject, since I've had a rather visible dislike towards him ever since our argument. It was rather heated, and I've quite regretted going too far in it.

 

Suffice to say that we don't agree on a lot stuff. Like the fact that he basically told me to my face that if he doesn't like the way I interpret parts of the fluff, he can just commission a story to contradict me, and that he has done so before. I believe a story about Blackshields during HH was brought up as an example of a story he commissioned for such purposes.

 

Do me a favour and just drop the subject before mods get involved. It was a mistake and off-topic to bring him up here. 

[Gree]

 

McNeill and Thrope tend to write their Primarchs as this mythic juggernauts who can fight whole armies. Conversely, Abnett is the one who has a track record of Primarchs being threatened by more mundane threats.

 

Thorpe? Tell me, have you read Ravenlord?

 

I have not. I stopped reading about when Unremebered Empire. I have not paid attention to any of the novellas since then.

 

I was referring to his rampage in ''Deliverance Lost''.