Unit of the Week: Baal Predator

[Jolemai]

Welcome to the Blood Angels Unit of the Week Series!

Following the release of the 8^th edition Codex, there is no better time to discuss all the unique units we have access to. Each week a different unit will appear, with the idea being that we discuss how best to use that model on the battlefield.

Note, this isn't to lament any nerfs, etc, from previous editions; the rules are as they are so try to unlock its potential for those who wish to use them all the same.

Without further ado, here's this week's entry:

Baal Predator

Flamerbaal, Zebulon

What are you thoughts here folks? How best would you use a Baal Predator?

Baal or Flamerbaal? Sponsons? Upgrades?

Single or multiples?

To compliment a list, or to build a list around?

As they don't require Red Thirst or Defenders of Humanity, could these be used to babysit an Imperial Soup character/unit in a Spearhead Detachment?
Stratagems?

Over to you

Edited April 7, 2020 by Jolemai

[Jolemai]

Should you want your model on display here (or on another thread), then submit a photo here please.

[Pendent]

I think I'm going to be following this one closely- I'd like to see how people have been using their Baal Predators. I've considered running them a few times but always end up taking a Stormtalon instead, since they can potentially fill a very similar role.

[brother_b]

I've yet to run flame baal predators. I can't comment on those but am interested in useful tactics.

 

I have used the Baal predator with assault cannon in 3 games. In each game they have proven valuable in thinning out horde armies, and have even done the odd point of damage to tougher targets. Finding a good place to park them is the hard part for me. I've found that they are also fairly attractive targets to my opponent, and they have taken some heavy fire or deep strike attention that's freed up other units (like devastator squads). 

 

The cons come when you're facing armies with higher toughness, or higher saves. Or, you succeed in destroying or neutralizing most of the "chaff" targets and are left trying to do damage on those high T/save units. Weight of fire means a lot against those tougher targets, so there is that, but by the time I'm trying to target "hard targets" my predator has usually taken enough damage to degrade it's effectiveness, making weight of fire a wash in terms of efficiency. 

 

The assault cannon baal has a very niche roll. It's lack of AP makes targeting elite infantry not as appealing. Against things like IG, daemons, and tyranids, the pred has been beastly.

[toaae]

The assault cannon baal has a very niche roll. It's lack of AP makes targeting elite infantry not as appealing. Against things like IG, daemons, and tyranids, the pred has been beastly.

 

But is it worth the 30 point premium over a Razorback? You get one wound, the overcharge engine rule, and the ability to mount 2 heavy bolters for that increase. My problem with Baals right now is I just can't justify taking them over alternatives, especially the Razorback.

[brother_b]

I personally play power level. I think the Baal cashes in at 1 pl less than a regular predator and 3 more than razorback. Points efficiency is not something we've dealt with.

 

I guess you'll just have to weigh the wound and sponson options and see if it makes sense for you. For me I've been mounting las on my razorbacks so the AC pred has been great for use against hordes.

[sebs_evo7]

I was thinking along the lines of triple flamer baal and using the stratagem to get into a position where my opponent has to deal with it or risk loosing a valuable unit, it’s a lot of points for a throw away unit but if they are focusing on that instead of my dc blob it could be worth it

I thought triple flamer because if you are putting it up there on the board you’ve got a strong chance of being charged and 3d6 overwatch can be no joke to 5 man msu

[Diagramdude]

Like others have said, the dakka Baal will struggle to justify its cost compared to assbacks.

 

I think the Baals only niche will come from the Lucifer engines strat, which I think is best paired with the flamer version.

 

Turn 1 you can advance 18+D6 and pop smoke, daring anyone to charge you. Also the flamer Baal is just as dangerous with 1 wound left due to autohits although it will move quite slowly, still the stratagem will let you advance 9+D6 on its lowest profile.

 

The massive T1 move allows you to deploy it behind a building or somewhere safe in case you don't go first as well. 168 points is quite steep though!

[Firepower]

Turn 1 you can advance 18+D6 and pop smoke, daring anyone to charge you. 

 

And if they don't?  What happens then? 

[sebs_evo7]

You drive about close to their lines burning things? Obviously they could just shoot you but hopefully you have something else on the board either closing with the enemy or splitting their firepower

[Charlo]

Yeah I think the Flamer Baal is the point of difference to me that make it worth it.

 

While on the expensive side, it can be used as a speedy LoS blocker and do some good damage with 3D6 Auto hits from some heavy duty flame weapons.

 

I'd imagine a pair working in Tandem could achieve quite a lot.

[Brother Crimson]

With current cost and the killshot that does not work on them I really have to scratch my head to see something they do that other units don’t do.

 

Razorbacks are still point efficient, frag furioso does the auto hit thing pretty well with an assault weapon.

 

They can be decent replacements of razorbacks if you need heavy support to fill a detachement and they have a few more shots than razorbacks and can be a part of your gun line.

 

Out of subject: did one game where I made the mistake of using killshot with them. It was great, if it ever FAQ’ed it could make them actually good choice because 2D assault cannons are scary.

 

Sorry, I digress...

[Panzer]

The only real idea I'd have for Baal Predators is as well giving them flamer and moving them as close as possible to the opponent. Pop smoke, hope he either charges them or fails to destroy them with shooting and then unleash hell on anything infantry. It's basically a rather unsatisfying alpha strike strategy (of course supported by the rest of the army) and if that fails you probably lost the game.

Kinda like the all-in DC alpha strike bomb.

[Brother Crimson]

The only real idea I'd have for Baal Predators is as well giving them flamer and moving them as close as possible to the opponent. Pop smoke, hope he either charges them or fails to destroy them with shooting and then unleash hell on anything infantry. It's basically a rather unsatisfying alpha strike strategy (of course supported by the rest of the army) and if that fails you probably lost the game.

Kinda like the all-in DC alpha strike bomb.

It can work if you manage to engage the big guns turn 1, but this is very very hard to pull off. If you can lock in predators/russ/devastator turn 1 they are safe to rush in and even if they get a few scratches the flamers dont care about balistic skill. However cleaver unit placement can totally prohibit that part and you are left with tank wide open for lascannons.

[Arkaniss]

I've found running 3 Baal Predators really good. One has a Flamestorm and of course ranges forward the other two sit back and unleash hell.

 

Tooling them up with Heavy Bolters and Stormbolters isn't cheap but their firepower really does make an impact along with the TL Assault Cannons. They thresh through infantry and sheer weight of dice is even a threat to anything else. Advancing and firing the Flamestorm can be useful but it's up to you and your local meta if that's better for you than TL AC but I like the aggressiveness of it.

 

I'd like to add that I've found taking a Techmarine extremely beneficial. Keeping a Predator in the fight and it's BS intact is worth the points he costs, and with detachments and such its no inconvenience to use up a HQ slot.

[Thrown Pommel]

I haven't been able to test this out (and probably wont be able to for some time! ) but I think there is good synergy for the dakka variant and the Killshot stratagem. 3 damage 2 twin assault cannons and 6 damage 2 heavy bolter shots with +1 to wound (vs monsters and vehicles at least) is no joke. Thats 36 St6 AP-1 D2 shots and 18 S5 AP-1 D2 shots! I think it would make for a great mobile base of fire to support our close combat elements.

 

I would never take only one Assault Cannon Baal though. Would have to be 3+ or nothing.

 

Also each Baal with Twin Assault Cannon and two Heavy Bolters costs 164 points. Thats one less than a minimum hellblaster squad.

 

I think Killshot has some real potential for a Baals out list.

[Jolemai]

Sadly the killshot stratagem only applies to regular Predators and not Baal Predators.

[Diagramdude]

If only the flamestorm cannon was assault...

[Thrown Pommel]

Sadly the killshot stratagem only applies to regular Predators and not Baal Predators.

 

But doesn't the Baal have the <Predator> Keyword? Killshot can be used on three Keyword <Predator> units of any type no?

[Diagramdude]

No, Killshot uses "Predator" not "PREDATOR"

[Thrown Pommel]

No, Killshot uses "Predator" not "PREDATOR"

 

Awww poo... that puts a damper on things lol. Still could accomplish with autocannon/heavy bolter predators and it would be cheaper to boot. And here I was thinking I was on to something.

[Diagramdude]

I know this is the Baal Predator's thread, but you really need to try out three regular predators with kill shot if you havent yet. They absolutely blow away any monster/vehicle in the game, especially with a captain and/or lieutenant nearby.

[NTaW]

I run a dakka Baal in my current 2k list and it does great things for me. That list also contains a twin LC/MM Stormraven, two twin LC Razorbacks, Mephiston, DC, SG; the works for messing with threat analysis with my opponents. I sit it on an objective off on a flank and people tend to ignore it as they advance and bring down troops in favour of taking down my central grouping of units. Eventually I move it forward to apply pressure to any infantry that have revealed themselves.

 

Essentially I feel like I under use it early game to play down what it can do to infantry then use it late game to attack infantry moving in on or holding objectives. It hurts small and big units pretty equally spitting out as many dice as it does but you have to help it do its job by using other elements of your army to distract and destroy the anti-armour in your opponent's list. The one time I rushed forward with it and deleted some infantry my opponent was quick to smack it down and could because it was early in the game and there was enough of their army left to do so (this may also be indicative of my inability in that game to provide enough other threats and/or my opponent's superior ability to wreck face).

[MeltaRange]

Can someone explain to me exactly how the Lucifer Pattern Engine works in the case of Baal Preds? (and really any vehicle)

 

It says "use BEFORE you advance with a vehicle, add 6" to it's movement value"

 

Does that mean:

 

1) The unit does not actually advance because the stratagem is used before you advance, and you simply add 6" to it's move and can act normally.

2) The unit must advance, but you add 6" to the vehicle's move (or 6 + d6" for a Baal Pred) and then add ANOTHER d6" for advancing as per the normal rules for advancing. (rolling 2 dice and picking the highest for Baal)

3) The unit must advance, but you simply replace the advance roll with a 6.  In the case of the Baal Pred, you add 6" + roll 2d6 pick the highest.

[NTaW]

Answer number 3 is currently correct unless something changes via FAQ/errata.