Are the Astra Militarum really overpowered?

[NatBrannigan]

Hello all,

 

I've decided to start this topic due to some discussion over on the Guard section of the forum. Since their codex was released Guard have been said on various platforms to be "overpowered" (a term I dislike being used reading anyone except last editions Eldar!), even gaining the notice of the Games Workshop rules department so that various rule nerfs and points increases have been introduced.

 

Now none of these have really crippled the Guard (although Conscripts and Commissars are now an active detriment to an army when taken, which is a shame) and frankly Guard players are used to their army being, shall we say less than optimal! It's really one of the joys of playing the army so don't read this as a moan by any means.

 

The point of the discussion is (hopefully) to understand just why people seem to think Guard are so overpowered. It's certainly led to confusion in several of our threads. I understand that massive groups of cheap, battleshock immune conscripts were silly and had to go but there's nothing else we can think of that deserves the hate Guard seem to be getting. Infantry squads are cheap and, I think an excellent unit, but they die very very easily...

 

So, are we biased and playing the new 7th edition Eldar? Or are people struggling because they're still taking lists designed to kill nothing but Terminators and Lords of War? I suspect the later and instead of freshening up lists with "poor" choices like Heavy Bolters are moaning until the "problem" is fixed?

 

Enlighten us please good people of Bolter and Chainsword!

[micahwc]

I think people don't know how to fight hoard armies very well. My experience is that my opponent will spend a lot of points and resources to kill off a squad or two, and that my opponents will easily make poor trades because of this.

 

Example 1: Daemon prince makes it into my lines and eventually kills two squads of guardsmen and a platoon commander before I kill the daemon prince. I'm only out 100 points. Daemon player feels good because he killed so much stuff, but the stuff he killed was chaff. He lost more points than I did.

 

Example 2: A unit of sanguinary guard and the sanguinor deep strike and make it to my lines. They get in close combat with a company commander and an infantry squad, assuming that the infantry squad will survive for 1 round of combat. They don't, and he completely overkills everything.  The sanguinary guard are now no longer in combat and are in range of my hellhound and Leman Russ Punisher. I lose 60 points of models, but kill 5 sanguinary guard and the sanguinor.

 

Another issue I see that people don't really realize is that guard infantry squads are tricksy. A single guard squad with no upgrades, unsupported, and outside of rapid fire range isn't a threat at all. A guard squad with supporting characters, regimental bonuses, in rapid fire range with first rank fire second rank fire is very dangerous.

[WarriorFish]

Guard have benefited a lot from the changes to 8th. Shooting is still strong - which naturally Guard is all about - plus it also deals a favourable hand in promoting numbers as a viable strategy. Whereas before a Guard army was hampered by the required numbers now it is an active boon, from getting units on the table to filling out Detachments a Guard player has no problems here. Guard also have some nice Stratagems to play (something not every codex can claim) which fits neatly with this to give a Guard player lots of options.

 

I'm not quite sure where you're getting some of these opinions on the Guard internally though, that's not what I've taken away from any of the conversations in the barracks. Most players appear quite aware why Guard is solid currently. Even if a squad of Guardsmen is easily destroyed it's not a big deal when they're not expensive and you have plenty more to hand. As a Guard player you plan for this, it's not a surprise. Losing a Marine squad is very different for example. It's all subjective of course, but with the so-called soups to consider it's probably not a straight forward answer any way you approach it.

 

Go up against another numerous army supported by their big hitters and you'll likely be facing the same problems - numbers seem King in 8th to the bane of more elite armies (makes me wonder how we'll see Custodes do?). Last but not least, take "hate" with more than a pinch of salt. It's the Internet after all

[Schlitzaf]

Well I play Imperial Soup, and always like my Gaurdsman as support to my Templars. I think the issue with Gaurdsman is that they are easily as an army to slot into a pre-existing one. My Gaurd Detachment which makes me Ponies, Rattlkng, Scions and Lascannons, alongside backfield Troop Units comes in just under 700 Points. My Black Templar Detachment with Intercessors, Crusader Squads, Reivars and Characters comes in at 1050. Now that isn’t to say what the gaurd provides is something I couldn’t in my Marines. Replace Scions with Plasma Ceptors, BackField Infantry with Devies, Ponies with Reivars and Rattlling with either Scouts or Reivars. (I take a Vangaurd Detachment as well in this circumstance).

 

What I lose is my flank or anchor to my backfield with my Gaurdsman Infantry. Which is where Gaurd armies are ‘OP’, they attrition well. They have enough units to spread out and killing 2 Squads doesn’t effect the army overall firepower. To beat Gaurdsman you need to be the 300 Spartans and force the battlefield on a specific point so they cannot bring everything to bear against one.

 

Or you need a T1 Full Alpha where you neutralize large sections of chaff to open up the Gaurdsman lines for your beta. As an army Gaurdsman cannot redeploy very well as Chimeras are expensive, orders are precious, and alternative deployment styles are scarcity. To take the Daemon Prince example. The Daemon Prince murdering those two chaff Squads is a 2 for 1 trade by Points (Prince between 160-200 vs 100). While it’s little of material value the tactical value is immense. The Chaos player should then drop Units where the Prince is or summon Unit in mass. The Gaurd player be hardpressed to fill the gap.

 

The reason I noted Gaurdsman are easily fill is partly why Gaurdsman are good. You can get a brigade at 700ish Points if you really wanted too. The implication is 600-800 Points spent on a Gaurdsman even if not a brigade, can fill any niche your army requires. And IG are available in some form to Chaos, Imperium and Tyranids, well over half the armies in this game.

 

Chaos has four main codexes, DG, TS, Daemon and Chaos Marines. These codexes have severe Strategic Weaknesses, Daemons, DG and TS espaicially, Gaurdsman or R&H can easily fill is found wanting. Maybe not excellently, but in a satisfying manner. Imperium, is defined by its many niche armies, GK, and Deathwatch to even Blood Angels and Dark Angels. Gaurdsman can cover the bases reasonably and for cheap, while providing bodies. Nids and Cults same concept, not the same reasons as Imperium factions but same core idea.

 

In many cases these fill can even be done without souping, case in point my army. I don’t because I dislike backfield Marines. And I like my Ponies. Is Gaurd OP? Maybe, I believe they are an incredibly powerful one. Reminds me of a 5th Ed Gaurd but not stuck to Leafblower lists. What we are seeing is the fact Gaurdsman make easy fill for armies, and thus the plethora. Previously Gaurdsman lacked tactical staying power, but allies help overcome that be it something as simple as a couple Marine squads to Celestine and her bullying abilities.

 

I don’t believe Gaurdsman are OP, atleast not in the way 5th Ed Grey Knight or Battle Companies/Decurions/etc where in 7th. What I do believe is they are too easily to ally in. But that is another question. As an allied in force, Gaurd Armies are really only big issue ones.

[Beams]

I'm going to be completely honest, but guard has never been a problem for me. With a ton of Dominion stormbolter and flamer squads, I usually chew through the chaff turn one and then the tanks turns 2-3 with the meltas. I have more trouble with T'au.

[BitsHammer]

There are two basic complaints about Guard: the cost of individual models (allowing for VERY large armies compared to a number of other factions, especially Marine ones) which allows them to basically spam CP, and the way they aren't impacted by the way morale should be mitigating their numbers when they take casualties.

 

Of course when you factor in that Orders are basically the ability to spam Chapter Tactics while also having their own Regimental bonuses and you can easilly see why many would feel there is something off here.

 

Honestly, having stared at a lot of stuff lately, I'm starting to lean towards the problem not being Guard, but rather that the Marines aren't balanced well for dealing with Hordes.

[Atrus]

Could always throw in a bonus open war card to a seriously outnumbered player to help a little. Like if a player is outnumbered by models by 3:1 or something, give em an open war card objective for instant death or something?

Though this is more of a casual player mentality, competitives probably wouldnt be open to it.

 

Not had trouble with guard myself, but most guard in my area are tread heads. Only realy blob player in my area is a tyranid player and ive not had too much trouble with him.

[The Unseen]

In short; yes.

 

Long version, infantry squads are extremely points effecient even without adding in regimental doctrines and orders, with them, their pretty obscene.

 

Scions are the absolute best-in-game for cheap reliable plasma units, with a tempestor prime able to give orders to 3 units that can all deep strike together.

 

Heavy weapon teams are super points effecient firepower, though at least their squishy for the points.

 

Leman Russes, especially pask, are very good. Primaris psyker spam without the beta rule to nerf smite is just silly.

 

So, when you have an extremely effecient baseline troop that has a bunch of inbuilt synergies on top, and very effective specialist units, along with the ability to fill up multiple large detachments for the cp even in very low point games with said hyper-effecient troops, you have a recipe for being the best.

[Melete]

Having large model counts and many different units is also very efficient when it comes to grabbing objectives, which I think a lot of people overlook here while they're calculating who's going to shoot and survive better.

[micahwc]

@the Unseen, how is a tempestor prime giving 3 orders a turn? They get 1 base, and an extra if they take the command rod at the cost of having a ranged weapon.

[Beams]

@the Unseen, how is a tempestor prime giving 3 orders a turn? They get 1 base, and an extra if they take the command rod at the cost of having a ranged weapon.

If I remember right, there's both a warlord trait and a relic, but no one I know takes either, since the other warlord traits and relics tend to be more useful.

[Melete]

@the Unseen, how is a tempestor prime giving 3 orders a turn? They get 1 base, and an extra if they take the command rod at the cost of having a ranged weapon.

You can take the warlord trait Master of Command technically? I would literally never do that, but you could.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

The way I deal with horde armies is put enough fire to force casualties in the moral phase. spread fire to the point that everything has to take moral and then in the next phase try to wipe out the squad. Without orbital bombardment, as a space marine (or equivalent) player you pretty much need to rely on the morale phase to help knock out units. When you have daemon and ork squads rolling around with 30 models, you cannot reasonably deal with them in 1 or even 2 turns of shooting (not unless your deathwatch and spamming frag cannons, hehehe). Try do deal enough casualties to squads that they lose as much in morale as they did in shooting. There isnt enough assault cannons, heavy bolters and the like to deal with a squad of 30 nurgle daemons unless you are packing some vulkan mega bolters in your list.

 

If you are fighting against a horde army that doesnt specialize in melee (like guard and tau), then deep strike and charge them. removed them as a shooting threat. If you are fighting a horde army that does rely on melee (daemons, orks, tyranids) focus less on objectives and more on movement and shooting. keep moving back and forcing them into your firing lines while delaying the chance to charge you (as best you can). And if you do get get charged (and survive), fall back and let your other squads/vehicles/walkers fire on the assaulting squad, and try to keep your units spread out so that more theings dont get caught in the consolidation.

 

You really gotta come to 8th edition as if its almost an entirely new game. So much has changed and so much works differently now. tanks are more durable, mortal wounds all over the place, horde vs elite armies play very differently now, deep striking is very useful and you dont have to worry about scatter.

[Melete]

Ironically, hordes are the best defense against deep striking since you can build screens of cheap disposable Infantry to prevent Deep Strikers from reaching the shootier elements like Manticores, Shadowswords, HWTs, whatever.

[MyD4rkPassenger]

I'm an extremely casual player, and I think of it more as their take all comers lists are sometimes leagues better than other factions take all comers lists.  I wouldn't call them overpowered, but I would say they're the best from my experience.

[Saxxon the Dragoon]

Ironically, hordes are the best defense against deep striking since you can build screens of cheap disposable Infantry to prevent Deep Strikers from reaching the shootier elements like Manticores, Shadowswords, HWTs, whatever.

Then you punch holes through that screening. wipe out a squad, deep strike or flank into them. Assault Marines are your best friend. take 2 squads (preferably of 10, but if your list is tight go with 5), you can either deploy them on the field or deep strike them (its easier if you just deploy them on the field and move them, but not safer) and charge units. You might also want to consider something like landspeeders with assault cannons/missile launchers and multi-meltas, Get 3 of them (you get a bonus to your movement) run them up the field, use the assault cannons or heavy flamers to whittle down troops as you try to get your multi-melta's into range of the bigger vehicles. If anything it will at least take some of the fire off your other squads so you can move them up to deal them.

 

2 squads of 5 assault marines (not even upgraded all that much, but at least take a melta bomb or power fist), and a squad of 3 landspeeders (2 or 3 multi-melta's, and take assault cannons or heavy flamers on each) can help you put a massive hurt on guardsmen, open up holes in their lines and will tie up a lot of units.

 

At least thats what I do, land speeders and assault marines to tie up hordes and attack priority targets or capture objectives. Trying to be a static gun line is not a viable tactic against horde armies. Horde armies can just field too many models to try and out shoot them. Either tie them up where you can, or strafe them with aircraft and gunships and try to deny them the charge as best you can.

 

edited because something else just came to mind:

 

Remember that landspeeders NOW have melee attacks, so if you are afraid of your landspeeders being shot down before they can get to their target, YOU CAN CHARGE AN ENEMY UNIT WITH IT. charge a guard squad and survive in melee (shouldnt be too hard), and that forces that squad to either keep up the fight or fallback and lose its shooting. If they decide to fight it out, on your next turn you can just fallback and go somewhere else, LAND SPEEDERS HAVE THE FLY KEYWORD, so they can fallback and still shoot their weapons.

[Ishagu]

Guard are super strong, but I'm not sure if overpowered is the right word.

 

I'd say they are easily the single best codex and have everything covered to a high degree of capability.

They aren't as powerful as Eldar were in 7th however, as an example.

 

The humble Guardsman is too good currently. With orders they basically put any other troops to shame. Super fast, enough dice volume to cause damage and more disposable bodies than the enemy has shooting attacks lol

[depthcharge12]

Honestly I’m a little bit biased playing IG and Krieg for that matter (we already pay 5 ppm, though we get WS3+, krak grenades, and cult of sacrifice) but honestly I don’t think I would mind a 1 point increase if it meant settling minds. However, I employ that with the caveat that it remains final so we don’t nerf the entire Codex into oblivion.

Guard can’t be killed as fast as they used to (both good and bad) but they are still squishy. I think people are too focused on bringing 6+ lasbacks and 2 stormravens, when they forget to bring anti Infantry. I think it also is less of a Guard too op please nerf issue, and more of a need to rebalance regular marines. Perhaps bolters should reroll to wound against Infantry models only or squads should be priced less.

I’d say everyone here has been very cordial I would just ask that everyone keep the vacuumology to a minimum as it doesn’t quite paint a full picture. Being a data analytics guy, you have to remain mindful of numbers misleading you. Like I could say Alaitoc is OP because of the -1 to hit, which absolutely hurts IG and Tau armies...but I don’t think the buff is the issue. I think the real issue is that the entire army gets it when only a select few units (if even that) in every other faction can get it natively.

[Beams]

So, I run a couple stormbolter/Bolter squads in my army, and they are the only "medium" range unit that I run, the rest are short range (12" and under), and I find that I don't stress guard infantry anymore.

 

A single 5/5 stormbolter/Bolter Dominion squad puts out 30 Bolter shots in rapid fire range, which 30*.66*.66*.66 (bs 3+, wounds on 3+, blocked by 5's) kills 8.62 Guardsmen a turn. Now I'm the first to say averages don't tell the whole story, but that basically means that they usually smash a guard squad a turn, since the guard is guaranteed a morale failure at that point. If they act of faith, they smash two.

 

As for the tanks, a squad of melta maidens in a Repressor usually handles them, and if it doesn't the Repressor charges then to prevent them from firing.

 

I honestly have more trouble with Necrons, T'au and Eldar. You could chalk it up to matchups irr play style, since all of my armies play nearly the same (grey knights, Orks, sisters) but it's definitely not overpowered like Eldar/Deathstars Spacemarine/AdmechWarCon last edition

 

Edit: reroll ones you hit brings that up to 9.408 dead Guardsmen a turn on averagee. I knew a Cannoness helped!

[SydonianDragoon404]

Yes. They are too cheap for what they do especially with the Cadian doctrine. You can essentially twin link your entire army (because orders auto pass now) and hit on threes using stratagems. 

 

Honestly, who at the GW team thought it was a good idea to give an army that stands and shoots re-roll 1s to hit? ITS TOO DAMN MUCH. 

 

Don't even get me started on Scions. They are cheap, safe, and extremely powerful with plasma. Nobody used them before because it was risky to deep strike in 6th and 7th, and now that there's no risk Guard essentially now have what they were lacking for every edition before this one- speed and maneuverability. Reece from FLG really loves to talk about LOS blocking terrain and how its the great equalizer for 8th edition. How every army is viable if you have enough LOS blocking terrain. Well guess what, Scions will just deep strike on the flank or behind it. Now they can see you, and they will kill you. 

 

IMO, certain units and sub faction rules being auto-takes is bad for the game. Cadia gets the best HQs, the best stratagems, and the best regiment trait, for an arguable overpowered and undercosted army. You put those together and you make an army that will beat many others at the list building phase. Its an extremely sad state of affairs. 

 

Guard gets too much when they pay too little. Their stratagems are not expensive in CP for what they do, they can have alot of CP way easier than other factions besides Nids, and every iteration of their army can take an infinite command point generator when they don't even need it. 5+ to gain a CP whenever the Guard player, or their opponent use a stratagem?! Its too damn much! 

 

Sorry Guard players, I used to be one of you, but its just too much. That codex is a massive problem. Is it fluffy? Yes. Is it powerful? Yes. Is it balanced? HELL NO.

[Trevak Dal]

Last editions eldar were over powered because of the concentration of great psychic powers that would go off with little consequence, jetbikes as better faster and cheaper MEQ, and gargantuan creatures that couldn't be harmed by most of your army and D weapon concentration/spamability.

 

Guard now seem to be 'overpowered' because of the same reasons Tyranids and orks are overpowered, because you can put out cheap units and have moral not really affect you that much (kinda like ATSKNF in...most previous editions). This makes it hard for people to chew through the horde of guys, and :cusss on people's power fantasy of playing space marines, (which they are taking in minimum units because they are expensive and that's "more efficient")

 

You also get access to GREAT command points and they are VERY cheap on top of it. In reality, command point cost should vary in the size of the starting unit size.

 

So I'm guessing that's why.

[Beams]

I mean, if the average Guardsmen costed more than 4 pts, being able to kill a full squad (40pts + upgrades) with one 110 pt dominion squad a turn would be rough. Veterans aren't used becuase they are too expensive even though they have WS 3+.

 

A squad of ten Marines should do fine against guard, especially if you rock a stormbolter on the Sargent and a heavy Bolter, which depending on what rerolls you have access to should average between 6.5 (none) to 12 (Guilliman) dead Guardsmen a turn.

[ERJAK]

Yeah...not like 7th op but...yeah.

[Claws and Effect]

At 2000 points a Guard player can have 21 command points (double Brigade +3), AND they have access to the means to replenish those command points. Playing Raven Guard I struggle to get 8, and when they're gone they're gone.

 

With orders, every Infantry squad is spewing out 40 lasgun shots inside 12".

 

Strategems are very good, and aren't as overcosted as some others (3CP for a strategem that requires me to have 3 vehicles I don't want more than one of, really?)

 

At 4 points a model, Guardsmen are significantly undercosted for what you get.

 

Yeah. Guard is a little overpowered this edition.

 

The most overpowered part is their ability to have a ton of command points and the ability to get them back. Other armies have to carefully choose when to use Strategems, but a Guard player can use 6 every turn and not be concerned about running out of CP. In an edition where many units' formerly built in abilities have become Strategems, that's a huge advantage.

[Firepower]

Well I'm far from a veteran gamer, but I've played Guard twice in 8th, once a horde and once a tank line.  The tank line was fun to play against.  The horde, less so.  Between character shenanigans (that the Beta rules are undercutting, hopefully) and previously optimal units for the situation which are now neutered (2 Vindicators versus a huge footprint of troops, and I get to hit 1 model a turn because poor dice), there wasn't a chance in hell from the moment the units were deployed.  I simply couldn't deal enough wounds per turn with the whole of my army intact to deal with that many models, even with optimal dice rolls.  But my boys are all geared towards melee, and I can't deal out nearly the amount of wounds I used to in melee with 8th rules.  Sooooo yeah...that was my experience. /shrug

 

I do think templates being removed did hordes in general a huge favor.