Are the Astra Militarum really overpowered?

[shandwen]

There is an issue of 1d6 shots not being equal to a large blast, and not being close to as useful at all.

[WarriorFish]

I do think templates being removed did hordes in general a huge favor.

This is something I missed, but this is a massive difference and one of the reasons numbers are so strong - and why my Marines don't bother with the former large blast stuff (my Vindicators used to do a lot of heavy lifting prior to 8th).

[DuskRaider]

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Absolutely, yes.

 

I think it's just hordes in general , as has been mentioned, but the inclusion of Orders as well as their ridiculous firepower and the inclusion of Imperial Soup in general just kind of tips the scales. It doesn't help they have ridiculous traits like the ability to deep strike LoWs (Tallarn), can be as tough and strong as Space Marines (Catachan) or can field a ridiculous amount of snipers (Valhallan). 

 

And by the way, compared to IG Renegades and Heretics have been beaten with a nerf bat into submission.

[Captain Idaho]

Cat amongst the pigeons time...

 

Board terrain. Most tournaments and gaming clubs load up on GW terrain and all of that is open and doesn't block line of sight. A powerful shooting army is made even more dangerous on the table if there is nothing to stop them shooting whatever they want with impunity.

[kombatwombat]

LoS-blocking terrain doesn’t help against weapons that don’t need LoS, which is where Guard do a lot of their heavy lifting (Basilisks, Manticores, Wyverns, Mortar Teams etc).

 

Actually, for a common Guard theme - horde screen + artillery - more terrain actually helps them...

[totgeboren]

It's hard to point at one specific thing, it's more a case of the whole being much larger than the sum of the parts.
There are some things that are perhaps a bit too powerful, like FRFSRF, but on the other hand, a few extra lasguns shouldn't really swing a battle. But everything exist in relation to everything else, and the orders does produce guardsmen with more firepower per model than a single space marine.

At the same time, they are kinda squishy, but marines are even squishier on a points basis.

Battle shock is there to reel in hordes, but the way IG are organized makes the impact of morale minimal. The same thing, that they have lots of tiny units, gives them easy access to lots of CP (often double what their opponent has), while their stratagems are not expensive. to the contrary, they are rather good!

Blast weapons no longer work against hordes, and even if they got a buff against large units, guards would be unaffected (since they generally have small units).

 

I think they probably need to lose 1 pt in their save, so 6+ for regular dudes. But it's a ton of tiny things that together makes them really powerful. 

[Deschenus Maximus]

One of my bugbears is Orders. I just don't get it: the Imperial Guard is supposed to be this massive organisation whose schtick is "keep throwing bodies at 'em until they drown in all the blood" but yet their Officers display a level of tactical proficiency unmatched by Space Marine commanders, Chaos Lords or Eldar Autarchs. Make sense of that for me.

 

Blast/template weapons REALLY need to scale more. Like D3 shots base, D6 if more than 5 models in a target unit and 2D6 if more than 10 for a former Large Blast. Flamers should be something like D6 hits at 8" but 2D6 at 4" or something like that, with a rule of max 1 hit per model in the unit to avoid hosing Marines even more.

[Mileposter]

Going from d3 to d6 is not an improvement when considering blast weapons.

 

I've believed that weapons that used to be 'blasts' should keep a d3 base scale - 2d3 instead of d6, 4d3 instead of 2d6. The ceiling is the same, and you drop the average high of the rolls, but you dramatically bring up the average low of the rolls which is far more in line with the general spread of such weapons intent.

[Beams]

One of my bugbears is Orders. I just don't get it: the Imperial Guard is supposed to be this massive organisation whose schtick is "keep throwing bodies at 'em until they drown in all the blood" but yet their Officers display a level of tactical proficiency unmatched by Space Marine commanders, Chaos Lords or Eldar Autarchs. Make sense of that for me.

 

Blast/template weapons REALLY need to scale more. Like D3 shots base, D6 if more than 5 models in a target unit and 2D6 if more than 10 for a former Large Blast. Flamers should be something like D6 hits at 8" but 2D6 at 4" or something like that, with a rule of max 1 hit per model in the unit to avoid hosing Marines even more.

Guard has had orders for editions, it's quintessential guard. They aren't just bodies thrown at problems, especially if you look at Cadians or Vostroyans who train their whole life for the guard. It's like saying space Marines are just "dudes in armor" so why are they so tough?

[M@verik115]

Honestly, I dont think they are really OP. 
Horde guard are definitely tough to face, but so are all horde armies if you dont build your force for the task. 
My concern is that marines are just too easy to take out now due to the prevalence of AP weaponry. 

[M@verik115]

 

One of my bugbears is Orders. I just don't get it: the Imperial Guard is supposed to be this massive organisation whose schtick is "keep throwing bodies at 'em until they drown in all the blood" but yet their Officers display a level of tactical proficiency unmatched by Space Marine commanders, Chaos Lords or Eldar Autarchs. Make sense of that for me.

 

Blast/template weapons REALLY need to scale more. Like D3 shots base, D6 if more than 5 models in a target unit and 2D6 if more than 10 for a former Large Blast. Flamers should be something like D6 hits at 8" but 2D6 at 4" or something like that, with a rule of max 1 hit per model in the unit to avoid hosing Marines even more.

Guard has had orders for editions, it's quintessential guard. They aren't just bodies thrown at problems, especially if you look at Cadians or Vostroyans who train their whole life for the guard. It's like saying space Marines are just "dudes in armor" so why are they so tough?

 

Its not all orders, its mainly FRFSRF. There is really no reason to use anything else besides it. 

Perhaps if they made it a test like the previous few editions then it would make it better, but since all orders are followed automatically... yeah it can be too good. 

[Deschenus Maximus]

Going from d3 to d6 is not an improvement when considering blast weapons.

 

I've believed that weapons that used to be 'blasts' should keep a d3 base scale - 2d3 instead of d6, 4d3 instead of 2d6. The ceiling is the same, and you drop the average high of the rolls, but you dramatically bring up the average low of the rolls which is far more in line with the general spread of such weapons intent.

 

Fair enough. The point is that it needs to scale more.

 

 

Guard has had orders for editions, it's quintessential guard. They aren't just bodies thrown at problems, especially if you look at Cadians or Vostroyans who train their whole life for the guard. It's like saying space Marines are just "dudes in armor" so why are they so tough?

 

 

A Marine Captain has studied tactics and strategy (and put them in practice) for DECADES; an Eldar Autarch for CENTURIES. By comparison, even a senior Cadian officer is a total noob.

 

I get that Orders have been part of Guard for a while, but that doesn't justify their existence in and of themselves.

 

[Beams]

 

 

Going from d3 to d6 is not an improvement when considering blast weapons.

 

I've believed that weapons that used to be 'blasts' should keep a d3 base scale - 2d3 instead of d6, 4d3 instead of 2d6. The ceiling is the same, and you drop the average high of the rolls, but you dramatically bring up the average low of the rolls which is far more in line with the general spread of such weapons intent.

Fair enough. The point is that it needs to scale more.

 

Guard has had orders for editions, it's quintessential guard. They aren't just bodies thrown at problems, especially if you look at Cadians or Vostroyans who train their whole life for the guard. It's like saying space Marines are just "dudes in armor" so why are they so tough?

 

A Marine Captain has studied tactics and strategy (and put them in practice) for DECADES; an Eldar Autarch for CENTURIES. By comparison, even a senior Cadian officer is a total noob.

 

I get that Orders have been part of Guard for a while, but that doesn't justify their existence in and of themselves.

Doesn't it though? Getting rid of And they shall know no fear or combat squading because "morale mitigation is overpowered" would anger the Marine players, right? It's the same thing with guard, they have a fluffy, characterful system that has practically defined them through at least fifth edition and you are suggesting cutting it out.

 

And honestly, I see the complaint that no one ever uses anything but first rank, and that's blantantly untrue. Reroll ones to hit is used all the time to prevent plasma misfires, fight again like it's in the fight phase is used to repel hordes on objectives or for Catachans literally.all the time, Move.Move.Move! Wins people the game, for late objective taking or early positioning. honestly, the only one I don't see used is the reroll wounds to wound, since it only effects meltas, and 17 pt meltas on 4-6 pt models is not worth it at all.

[totgeboren]

I don't think scaling of blasts would help all that much (even if they do need to scale). Guards generally run in small units anyway, so blasts scaling would mainly encourage MSU, just like Battle shock does.

 

I mean, the rules for CP reward you both for spamming MSU, and for spamming one kind of unit (be they HQs, elites, fast or heavies). The are designed the exact opposite of what they should be.
Blasts should scale against unit size, Battle Shock should be deadly against large units, but large units should receive buffs (some do at 20+ already), but you should also get more CP if you take a few big units instead of many small, to compensate for being more susceptible to morale and certain weapons, not to mention having a much harder time handling objectives.

 

The base game needs to be tweaked a bit, since now it rewards the wrong things.

[Mileposter]

 

Going from d3 to d6 is not an improvement when considering blast weapons.

 

I've believed that weapons that used to be 'blasts' should keep a d3 base scale - 2d3 instead of d6, 4d3 instead of 2d6. The ceiling is the same, and you drop the average high of the rolls, but you dramatically bring up the average low of the rolls which is far more in line with the general spread of such weapons intent.

 

Fair enough. The point is that it needs to scale more.

 

Forgive my singular focus here, but that's actually not what I'm saying - I'm disagreeing with you, they should not scale more. The proposal I list there would actually have them scale less: By keeping the same ceiling but raising the floor, the general variance and scale tightens, which should in practice lead to more reliable results rather than frag missiles that can feel entirely ineffective.

 

'Scaling' blasts is definitely not the solution. Causing more damage just hurts too many other portions of the game with balance. Making these weapons more reliably able to perform their role on the other hand - blasting! - keeps things centered.

 

Tying this into the main topic - I think having reliable answers to larger squads would help mitigate the issue folks are facing with Guard dramatically, and this sort of adjustment would deliver just that. It's also silly easy enough to test yourself! Play three games with it, see where you fall on the spectrum.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Doesn't it though? Getting rid of And they shall know no fear or combat squading because "morale mitigation is overpowered" would anger the Marine players, right? It's the same thing with guard, they have a fluffy, characterful system that has practically defined them through at least fifth edition and you are suggesting cutting it out.

 

 

Orders aren't fluffy. They make no sense within context. It's just about the least logical "racial bonus" they could have given Guard.

 

Guard are about numbers, big guns and lots of tanks. THAT is what their army special rule should be focusing on. Perhaps some sort of free preliminary bombardment? IDK.

 

I don't think scaling of blasts would help all that much (even if they do need to scale). Guards generally run in small units anyway, so blasts scaling would mainly encourage MSU, just like Battle shock does.

 

I mean, the rules for CP reward you both for spamming MSU, and for spamming one kind of unit (be they HQs, elites, fast or heavies). The are designed the exact opposite of what they should be.

Blasts should scale against unit size, Battle Shock should be deadly against large units, but large units should receive buffs (some do at 20+ already), but you should also get more CP if you take a few big units instead of many small, to compensate for being more susceptible to morale and certain weapons, not to mention having a much harder time handling objectives.

 

The base game needs to be tweaked a bit, since now it rewards the wrong things.

 

Can't really disagree with you there.

 

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

 

Forgive my singular focus here, but that's actually not what I'm saying - I'm disagreeing with you, they should not scale more. The proposal I list there would actually have them scale less: By keeping the same ceiling but raising the floor, the general variance and scale tightens, which should in practice lead to more reliable results rather than frag missiles that can feel entirely ineffective.

 

'Scaling' blasts is definitely not the solution. Causing more damage just hurts too many other portions of the game with balance. Making these weapons more reliably able to perform their role on the other hand - blasting! - keeps things centered.

 

Tying this into the main topic - I think having reliable answers to larger squads would help mitigate the issue folks are facing with Guard dramatically, and this sort of adjustment would deliver just that. It's also silly easy enough to test yourself! Play three games with it, see where you fall on the spectrum.

 

 

 

Ah sorry I misunderstood. I don't understand what you think having scaling blasts would break. exactly.

 

[Henimann]

Guard player here - I just got back into playing recently afters stopping at the beginning of 4th edition. I've only played a few games of 8th edition, most in the last few months. So take my observations with a grain of salt. 

 

I think the main issue, in my opinion, is the horde mechanics.  Morale is supposed to be the great equalizer here, where low leadership mitigates the numerical superiority of horde armies, but their numbers work for them, not against them. 

 

 

 

 

Going from d3 to d6 is not an improvement when considering blast weapons.

I've believed that weapons that used to be 'blasts' should keep a d3 base scale - 2d3 instead of d6, 4d3 instead of 2d6. The ceiling is the same, and you drop the average high of the rolls, but you dramatically bring up the average low of the rolls which is far more in line with the general spread of such weapons intent.

 
Fair enough. The point is that it needs to scale more.

 

Forgive my singular focus here, but that's actually not what I'm saying - I'm disagreeing with you, they should not scale more. The proposal I list there would actually have them scale less: But keeping the same ceiling but raising the floor, the general variance and scale tightens, which should in practice lead to more reliable results rather than frag missiles that can feel entirely ineffective.
 
'Scaling' blasts is definitely not the solution. Causing more damage just hurts too many other portions of the game with balance. Making these weapons more reliably able to perform their role on the other hand - blasting! - keeps things centered.
 
Tying this into the main topic - I think having reliable answers to larger squads would help mitigate the issue folks are facing with Guard dramatically, and this sort of adjustment would deliver just that. It's also silly easy enough to test yourself! Play three games with it, see where you fall on the spectrum.

 

 

I like your idea here - I think the major factor that hurts elite armies when facing a horde like Guard is lack of a reliable answer against large numbers of enemy units.  Even if squads are larger, or there are multiples of them, the dice-variable nature of former blast and Ordnance weapons doesnt let them be used as the horde-busters we are all used to them being.   Keeping the ceiling, but raising the floor, by reverting to multiples of d3 is a great idea, Mileposter.  It does not make the weapons more powerful, BUT it makes them more reliable.  Which is what they should be.  

 

 

I mean, the rules for CP reward you both for spamming MSU, and for spamming one kind of unit (be they HQs, elites, fast or heavies). The are designed the exact opposite of what they should be.

Blasts should scale against unit size, Battle Shock should be deadly against large units, but large units should receive buffs (some do at 20+ already), but you should also get more CP if you take a few big units instead of many small, to compensate for being more susceptible to morale and certain weapons, not to mention having a much harder time handling objectives.

 

No disagreement here.  Min-maxing is the bane of the game.   But its unfortunately been a part of the game at least as far back as when I started playing in 2000.  A mechanic that would reward full squads would be interesting but that would probably result in even more imbalance issues.  

 

I can't speak much for Orders though...that mechanic is still new to me.  Personally, I am surprised how effective stacking regiment traits with Orders is.  I use Tallarn personally, since they are the closest to the old Light Infantry doctrine from the 3.5 codex, but some of the Trait-Order combinations, particularly from the Cadians, seem a bit brutal.  That said, I think the issue is not the rules themselves, but that they are easily abused.  

[Charlo]

A man with a bigger hat than everyone else shouting is more effective than in-built combat/ tactical/ regional/ anything data in your helmet that directly inputs into your brain via neural interface that is also connected to your armour.

 

Sadly the game we live in. Order are incredibly powerful and should be a bigger deal or have more of a chance to fail it would seem, war is chaotic. Imagine if just by having a character nearby marines could fire bolters again, or fight again? Currently that last one costs 3CP, most likely a 3rd of your entire pool in most games (or even half!)

 

Guard overall are just very efficient this edition, even the humble lasgun got buffed to the stratosphere now wounding anything bigger than a marine much easier or simply gaining the ability too. They can bring so many tools, they always have the right ones for the job and the game is more about stopping them than actually achieving objectives yourself.

[Claws and Effect]

A Brigade with 6 Infantry squads can pump out 240 lasgun shots per turn at targets within 12". Granted, it's nearly impossible to aim all of them at the same target, but that's still a butt ton of shots.

 

The kicker is they can do that reliably, thanks to the fact that some of their HQs can give out 2 orders per turn.

 

Solution for that? A rule that states that officers who can give more than one order cannot give the same order twice. Still useful, but curbs some of the ridiculousness of FRFSRF.

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

 

I like your idea here - I think the major factor that hurts elite armies when facing a horde like Guard is lack of a reliable answer against large numbers of enemy units.  Even if squads are larger, or there are multiples of them, the dice-variable nature of former blast and Ordnance weapons doesnt let them be used as the horde-busters we are all used to them being.   Keeping the ceiling, but raising the floor, by reverting to multiples of d3 is a great idea, Mileposter.  It does not make the weapons more powerful, BUT it makes them more reliable.  Which is what they should be.  

 

Thing is, that does absolutely nothing to reign in hordes. It's a direct boost to blast weapons but said boost equally affects Marines AND hordes. So if you want Blasts to be part of the solution, the ceiling HAS to scale.

[M@verik115]

 

 

 

I like your idea here - I think the major factor that hurts elite armies when facing a horde like Guard is lack of a reliable answer against large numbers of enemy units.  Even if squads are larger, or there are multiples of them, the dice-variable nature of former blast and Ordnance weapons doesnt let them be used as the horde-busters we are all used to them being.   Keeping the ceiling, but raising the floor, by reverting to multiples of d3 is a great idea, Mileposter.  It does not make the weapons more powerful, BUT it makes them more reliable.  Which is what they should be.  

 

Thing is, that does absolutely nothing to reign in hordes. It's a direct boost to blast weapons but said boost equally affects Marines AND hordes. So if you want Blasts to be part of the solution, the ceiling HAS to scale.

 

The problem is if the ceiling scales, then that will again affect every single army. 

I believe the main issue here is also morale. 

As it stands, morale is a joke. I have yet to feel it, but in previous iterations, while you wouldn't lose guys to it, it would render the whole squad incapable of operating. 

When I played IG 3rd edition onward, morale was a lot more devastating. Now? Meh... 

 

So while 8th did so many things right, some things are wrong too and as a guard player, I can tell you right now that I do not worry about morale at all and orders being carried out without fail makes playing guard feel more elite than playing marines, which shouldn't really be the case. 

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

The problem is if the ceiling scales, then that will again affect every single army. 

I believe the main issue here is also morale. 

 

 

How so? No Marine squad save for Crusaders can have more than 10 members, and most Marine units function better as MSU, so scaling blasts would affect horde units more than Marine units.

[Mileposter]

 

I like your idea here - I think the major factor that hurts elite armies when facing a horde like Guard is lack of a reliable answer against large numbers of enemy units.  Even if squads are larger, or there are multiples of them, the dice-variable nature of former blast and Ordnance weapons doesnt let them be used as the horde-busters we are all used to them being.   Keeping the ceiling, but raising the floor, by reverting to multiples of d3 is a great idea, Mileposter.  It does not make the weapons more powerful, BUT it makes them more reliable.  Which is what they should be.

 

Thing is, that does absolutely nothing to reign in hordes. It's a direct boost to blast weapons but said boost equally affects Marines AND hordes. So if you want Blasts to be part of the solution, the ceiling HAS to scale.

 

It only helps hordes against hordes. These weapons already have low strength and AP values (with some minor exceptions) which tougher-model armies mitigate (some more so than others). It also has the smallest footprint on changes to the system to branch with. Raising the ceiling has a huge variance of balancing issues to contend with in comparison, such as its impact on loadouts against single model units or multi-wound models. Even with the roles reversed and Guard getting their hands on the potentiality of this setup, it hasn't actuated a larger effectiveness against Marines in my tests.

 

Try three games with it, I think that you'll see it pans out. Or you'll have solid data to refute it with something we weren't able to cover in our setups.

[M@verik115]

 

 

The problem is if the ceiling scales, then that will again affect every single army. 

I believe the main issue here is also morale. 

 

 

How so? No Marine squad save for Crusaders can have more than 10 members, and most Marine units function better as MSU, so scaling blasts would affect horde units more than Marine units.

 

How blasts work now is a model can get hit more than once. Before if you had 5 guys, they could only get hit 1 time each. 

Now if you make blasts lets say 2D6 on a squad of 5 marines, and you roll 2 6's that would still be 12 hits on 5 guys.