Are the Astra Militarum really overpowered?

[Finkmilkana]

The problem there is it is entirely possible for Guard to have 21 CP at 1500 points, and more than that at 2000. Guard can field a fraking Brigade for right around 750 points. Sure, it might lack a bit in firepower, but who cares when you have 240 lasgun shots per turn. 6 Infantry squads, 3 mortar teams, 3 Sentinals, and a few elite single model units. It's not hard to get there.

 

With 21 CP and the means to get some of them back, a Guard player can spam CP the whole game without worrying about running out.

 

The other point made was how the hell is it fair for Guard to get an ability for free that Marines have to pay nearly half their total CP to do? I'm referring to the "fight again" order. Free for Guard via an auto-pass Order, 3 CP for Marines. And if you happen to be playing Catachans, an Infantry squad is every bit as effective in melee as a Tactical squad.

 

No one is saying to take Orders away altogether, just charge CP for them. You know, since the special rules of pretty much every other faction ​got turned into Strategems that cost CP, and Guard got to keep theirs on top of getting useful Strategems.

Sure, that there are some lists with an insane amount of CP is a problem (maybe restrict brigade to 1 or something). But making order cost cp would not solve it. Instead it would force every guard player to spam brigade detachments to be viable, inflating model count. I have honestly never seen anyone playing more than one brigade currently, that would certainly change then. All it would do is restrict what type of armies could be played in a bad direction.

 

The argument „why do Marines have to pay cp while guard doesn’t“ honestly is pointless. Why do Khorne Berzerkers fight twice for „free“? Should they also be required to pay CP? And how come tech Marines can repair vehicles for free when there are also stratagem that cost cp for that? This kind of argument can be taken against pretty much every special ability in game and it never holds. Ideally it is balanced by the model in question paying points for the ability. If the points are too low, they should be increased. And fight twice from officer is really not the issue with guard, outside of maybe Catachans with Straken and Priest (which is very expensive). A normal guardsmen suck in meele and would rather fall back and fire (yes, even if he got it for „free“ with -1 to hit like ultramarine).

[totgeboren]

Should've made orders strategems that rely on officers being close to the target unit.

Suddenly rule of one limits FRSRF, and Guard are limited by CP to break the rules just like everyone else. They would still have more CP than anyone else, but they would also spend them faster to buff their units.

 

 

This is a really reasonable idea. I mean, as a primarily CSM/CD (and Ork)  player, having a bunch of criteria to fulfill to use stratagems is the default position. You need to have Mark of X to do stratagem Y, otherwise it's a no go. The same should go for IG. "You need a Officer within X" to do Y". 

 

 

 

Sure, that there are some lists with an insane amount of CP is a problem (maybe restrict brigade to 1 or something). But making order cost cp would not solve it. Instead it would force every guard player to spam brigade detachments to be viable, inflating model count. I have honestly never seen anyone playing more than one brigade currently, that would certainly change then. All it would do is restrict what type of armies could be played in a bad direction.

 

The argument „why do Marines have to pay cp while guard doesn’t“ honestly is pointless. Why do Khorne Berzerkers fight twice for „free“? Should they also be required to pay CP? And how come tech Marines can repair vehicles for free when there are also stratagem that cost cp for that? This kind of argument can be taken against pretty much every special ability in game and it never holds. Ideally it is balanced by the model in question paying points for the ability. If the points are too low, they should be increased. And fight twice from officer is really not the issue with guard, outside of maybe Catachans with Straken and Priest (which is very expensive). A normal guardsmen suck in meele and would rather fall back and fire (yes, even if he got it for „free“ with -1 to hit like ultramarine).

 

 

I mean, the issue we are at now is that a 10-man squad of Guardsmen that rapid fires into an enemy CSM unit causes around 2.22 wounds with FRFSRF. A 10-man Tactical Squad that does the same causes around 2.22 wounds. Something is off, both thematically and points-wise when guardsmen, using their basic abilities and basic rifles, are as killy as marines with boltguns.

Orders, that you toss around freely, are simply much more powerful than most stratagems for other armies, and they have their own rather good stratagems on top of orders (with tons of CP to boot!). And then we add regimental doctrines on top, and what we have is infantry that is punching waaaay above their weight class. Pair this with some superb tanks, many that don't even need los and many games are over before the first model has been placed on the table.

 

Oh, and dealing with Officers by use of Snipers... I could try that with my CSM/CD/Orks. Too bad they don't have a single Sniper between the three of them.

[Claws and Effect]

Is there a rule stating that a unit cannot receive the same order more than once?

 

Because if there isn't, Fix Bayonets is broken as all hell.

 

It says the unit immediately fights as though it were the fight phase. It does not specify what phase this should happen in. If you circle something big and keep 3 Company Commanders nearby that unit fights 3 times with impunity because it's happening during your movement phase.

 

Imagine that with a Catachan command squad with chainswords and Straken hanging around. 36 S4 attacks free of reprisal.

 

Or alternately, you could order that unit to fight several times and then give them the shoot after falling back order followed by FRFSRF. 20 to 30 S4 attacks followed by 40 lasgun shots? That can hurt just about anything.

 

Edit: Nevermind, I see the bit about units only being able to take one order per turn.

[shandwen]

I think it's clear orders come cheaper than they should, but the best way to manage that is probably to not permit the same officer from give the same order 2 times a turn, and to raise the point cost of company officers noticeably.

Orders are not what people find deadly with guard, it is their codex having an answer for everything.

(PS: most of the guard units that are now feared have also been garbage tier for the last decade. Baneblade chassis all died to melta like fuel cans previously, lean fusses often found their mainguns just not doing enough for their costs while everything else had to snap fire, and mortars... who even owned one last edition?)

[NatBrannigan]

Wow, this thread took off!

 

First off thanks for the input everyone. It seems that lots of CP's, excellent basic troops and Scions are the biggest issues. limiting CP's is a decent idea and wouldn't upset me (as a Guard player) at all. I also object to hundreds of Scions Plasma units running round and take at most 1 myself so that's a fair point as well.

 

Guard Infantry are great, no arguments there, but they are only great when properly supported and that can be tricky to do. Those officers are squishy... Orders should stay the same, it's the Guards "thing" and if you start taking away our special rules then why not do the same to everyone?

 

It seems to me the biggest beef is comparing Guard Infantry squads to Tactical squads, with the damage output being the same (with orders) which is clearly mad. Instead of making Guard Infantry worse (for the third time already this addition...) perhaps the more basic Marine units could be made better..? Assault squads and Tactical squads actually worth taking would be lovely!

 

I do still get frustrated when I see players taking low shot, high strength high AP weapons and then complaining they are struggling against horde armies... But equally seeing players stuggling with a proper Marine TAC list is a shame.

 

Don't make Guard worse, make Marines better (actual Marines, not just Centurions with Razorbacks)!

[MrZakalwe]

perhaps the more basic Marine units could be made better..? Assault squads and Tactical squads actually worth taking would be lovely!

This is my issue with most of these discussions; tac marines are worthless- they are a tax that you pay to unlock CP and take other units.

 

Basic CSMs are worthless, they are a tax that you pay to unlock CP and take other units.

 

Imperial Guard infantry are not useless but they are also almost never purchased in numbers greater than is required to take whatever size detachment you have chosen; they are better than other armies trash infantry but still not actually good enough to compete with other options (even with orders).

 

As far as I can tell that means guard infantry is decently balanced (although you still only take the minimum, they aren't useless and you don't resent paying the tax) while troops selections in most armies are absolutely terrible for the points cost not just compared to guard but compared to most other options in their codex (they are so below par that you do resent the tax).

 

Fix Tacs and CSMs.

[NiceGuyAdi]

One of the issues that keeps coming up is the abundance of CP in the average guard army, with little pressure on how you use them. This could adjust that:

 

-make guard officers a base cost, with promotions costing CP instead of points/power level, in the same way as the SM Captain-Chapter Master.

 

-make each order one-use per phase, but officers can use CP to issue repeat orders.

[kombatwombat]

Guard Infantry are great, no arguments there, but they are only great when properly supported and that can be tricky to do. Those officers are squishy... Orders should stay the same, it's the Guards "thing" and if you start taking away our special rules then why not do the same to everyone?

Thing is, they did take away many units’ ‘thing’ and replaced it with a Stratagem. Part of the manifold angst people have with Guard is that they got to keep theirs and not have to use CP to use what used to be their innate power (hello Killshot, Linebreaker Bombardment et al).

[Zodd1888]

Points efficient, big footprint, access to imperiums tide of awesome options, and high success rate undeniable psychic like powers (orders) makes for a winning combination.

 

I expect the same from Orks upcoming Codex, except their failures will likely cause a negative effect. Nobz eatin' boyz alive, or dead.

[NatBrannigan]

 I guess I just don't understand the hate (now that both Conscripts and Commissars have been made useless), even in the Thousand Sons rumour thread there are people saying the Guard codex is OP...

 

I mean there were no Guard players anywhere near the top of the results table at Decepticon as far as I can see for example? While Guard are a good army (for a change...) clearly they aren't the best out there at the moment, and that's even before all the proper codex's are released.

[The Unseen]

This isn't "hate", it's calling out a poorly balanced dex.

Ww aren't foaming at the mouth wanting to ruin Guard players day, like I'll even totally say they went to far with the commissar nerf, though only a little.

All it would've taken is adding in a line that the model the commissar executed should count towards morale casualties, so it's never worse to have a commissar, and that would be about perfect.

 

And from what people have gathered, Guard are actually the best army as far as tournament wins are concerned.

 

http://bloodofkittens.com/8th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/

 

That's a compendium of winning lists for events with more than 25 players during 2017, guard is at the top with 24 top 3 olacers, followed closely by Chaos Soup, and Pre-Nerf Ynarri who each got 20, trailed by daemons and then ultramarines at the 17 and 16 mark.

 

Las Vegas LVO will give us a better idea as well, since it's after chapter approved and the codexes have been out a while longer now.

 

So I don't know about decepticon, but if it's got more than 25 people, odds are one of the top 3 lists will be Guard.

[Finkmilkana]

The thing is, if you look at the guard lists at that bloodofkitten link, they are pretty much all either from before chapter approved, spamming the units that are nerfed now or they are soup lists. That statistic only tell you that some stuff that is nerfed now (primaris psyker, manticore etc) was too strong, not that guard is strong now. They also mostly didn’t field that many guardsmen, but mostly spammed scions (or coscripts for the even older lists) as troops.

[Mileposter]

I realize that I never actually answered the original question with my participation - I don't think that they're 'overpowered'.

 

There is a large difference between being strong - or even the strongest, being unbalanced, and being overpowered. A large portion of the interwebz seems to use the terms interchangeably.

 

I also strongly suspect that we wouldn't hear nearly as much griping if it was Space Marines sitting on the top 3 as much.

[Beams]

Any list with Conscripts and Commisars, pre-nerf-into-oblivion or pre-nerf plasma and melta Scions, cannot be held as current evidence for guards overpower, as those elements are now signifcantly weaker and do not effect current tables.

[Ishagu]

Scions took a rightful hit.

 

I think guardsmen need to be 5pts each. That should help in addressing their overall value. Conscripts remain at 4.

[Schlitzaf]

Mile if Marines were T1 we’d instead hear gripping about which chapter was the bestest T1 (example Gulliman & Ultras and Ravengaurd this edition, last edition Scars and Hands, the previous edition(s), BA, Knights and Wolves).

[totgeboren]

Something that also affects how much whining is heard is if some armies are 'punished' for taking thematic builds, while others are rewarded.

The IG vs SM/CSM divide is just that. Guards work really well if they make typically 'Guard' armies, like those seen in stories. SM/CSM armies become weaker the closer they try to follow the background.

 

Even if both can produce armies that compete at the top level, many more players are interested in making armies that sort of match the background.

When two players with the same mentality (laid back, thematic) do not produce armies that are close in power, there is a problem.

[duz_]

Im curious for those complaining FRFSRF being OP.

 

How many units have you had wiped off the board with lasguns?

 

Even in Claws and Effects example of 120 shots. Half would likely miss to begin with. The end result being ~6.6 MEQ unsaved wounds... that's assuming all 6 squads were in 12" range and there was enough officers in range to issue that many orders ....

 

Id like to hear more actual personal experiences of being wiped off the board by regular guard lists as a result of "CP and Order spam".

Spammy / optimized tournament lists I dont think really count also my understanding of the results thus far is Chaos is doing significantly better the guard and imperium in general.

[The Unseen]

Im curious for those complaining FRFSRF being OP.

 

How many units have you had wiped off the board with lasguns?

 

Even in Claws and Effects example of 120 shots. Half would likely miss to begin with. The end result being ~6.6 MEQ unsaved wounds... that's assuming all 6 squads were in 12" range and there was enough officers in range to issue that many orders ....

 

Id like to hear more actual personal experiences of being wiped off the board by regular guard lists as a result of "CP and Order spam".

Spammy / optimized tournament lists I dont think really count also my understanding of the results thus far is Chaos is doing significantly better the guard and imperium in general.

Yeah, that *only* kills 6(actually 7) MeQs, but those 30 guardsmen and 3 orders are less than 200 pts, and those 7 tactical marines cost 90.

15 tacticals, which is what 200 pts gets you, also in rapid fire range, kill 9 guardsmen, which cost 36.

So the guardsmen are literally killing 3x as many points for the same investment, before morale.

And the comparison gets even more ridiculously one sided when the guard squads pack plasma.

 

And I'm sorry I haven't included meaningless anecdotes for you?

But sure, here's one, I watched a guard army with a whole bunch of infantry squads, pask, 2 other russes, and a smattering of other things effectively table a BA list in 3 shooting phases.

The lasguns were more than suffecient to finish the job the big guns started.

That make you happy?

[Beams]

Scions took a rightful hit.

 

I think guardsmen need to be 5pts each. That should help in addressing their overall value. Conscripts remain at 4.

the point is it makes those tournament lists/wins irrelevant when talking about guard.

 

Also, no one took meltas before, increasing the costs of melta was a terrible idea.

 

I also disagree that Guardsmen should be 5 pts. I kill a squad a turn with a single unit. My Dominions currently get 40+ pts back a turn versus guard, and it's crazy to me that space Marine players don't follow that lead when building to fight guardsmen.

 

8 bolters, stormbolter and heavy Bolter with a reroll should do the same, and then bam! 40+ pts a turn and really, how many infantry squads does guard take?

 

But instead we sit here and argue that Guardsmen do too much damage, even though they die to a stiff breeze.

[Major_Gilbear]

And I'm sorry I haven't included meaningless anecdotes for you?

But sure, here's one, I watched a guard army with a whole bunch of infantry squads, pask, 2 other russes, and a smattering of other things effectively table a BA list in 3 shooting phases.

The lasguns were more than suffecient to finish the job the big guns started.

That make you happy?

 

This is an uncalled-for response to a perfectly reasonable question. Please remember the B&C rules that you agreed to when you signed up, and be both respectful of others and constructive in what you post.

 

 

_________________________________________________________________

 

 

Something that also affects how much whining is heard is if some armies are 'punished' for taking thematic builds, while others are rewarded.

The IG vs SM/CSM divide is just that. Guards work really well if they make typically 'Guard' armies, like those seen in stories. SM/CSM armies become weaker the closer they try to follow the background.

 

Even if both can produce armies that compete at the top level, many more players are interested in making armies that sort of match the background.

When two players with the same mentality (laid back, thematic) do not produce armies that are close in power, there is a problem.

 

I think this is part of the issue, but that the solution relies perhaps on looking at the  other  armies that don't benefit from fluffy build.

 

Are CSM/SM Stratagems generally bland and over-costed in CP? Sure. So why not fix that rather than spoil a different army that is working as intended?

 

I also think that another part of the issue is that a lot of people are still building all-comers lists that are principally designed for tackling MEQ opponents, and continue to assume that horde armies like Guard, 'Nids, and Orks, will continue to be just like the bottom-level armies they've previously been for the last 15 years or so. So many of the lists I see posted here on B&C are perfect examples of that, that I wonder how seriously other "bad" choices are really tested rather than just maths-hammered in a vacuum and then discarded.

 

Finally, I think there is a big difference between armies that are all built from one book, and those that are "soup" lists. Unfortunately, I think it's in soup lists that the Guard are overpowered; they can always be used to glue together all the other elements in Imperial Soup, shoring up any designed weaknesses in such a list, and doing it for low cost. I do feel there should be more limits in those lists, but that is a different conversation than what this thread is about.

[Ishagu]

 

Scions took a rightful hit.

 

I think guardsmen need to be 5pts each. That should help in addressing their overall value. Conscripts remain at 4.

the point is it makes those tournament lists/wins irrelevant when talking about guard.

 

Also, no one took meltas before, increasing the costs of melta was a terrible idea.

 

I also disagree that Guardsmen should be 5 pts. I kill a squad a turn with a single unit. My Dominions currently get 40+ pts back a turn versus guard, and it's crazy to me that space Marine players don't follow that lead when building to fight guardsmen.

 

8 bolters, stormbolter and heavy Bolter with a reroll should do the same, and then bam! 40+ pts a turn and really, how many infantry squads does guard take?

 

But instead we sit here and argue that Guardsmen do too much damage, even though they die to a stiff breeze.

So what if you kill a squad a turn? That's currently 40 points.

 

That's the point, even at 5 points they are still great value.

[Beams]

If I kill a squad a turn, and I have 3 squads of stormbolter Dominions, that's three guard infantry squads squads, with three of mine.

 

Then my Repressors move up and hit the heavier targets. They can't stand up to that fire power, and I push guard back *hard* and force then to rely on their tanks and artillery, which tend to be better against big bad targets and not infantry. So, yeah, if guard only has 3-9 infantry squads, then they are definitely out of infantry by the end of turn three. Usually they don't have that many, and I can eliminate their infantry turn 1. Storm Dominions plus Seraphim, Repressors and Celestine usually delete anything that starts near the 24" inch mark turn one.

[The Unseen]

@Major

Sorry, I was snarkier than intended, it comes naturally to me when speaking.

 

But I don't think asking for anecdotes is actually a reasonable question, because they don't contribute meaningful to the discussion, because everyone has different experiences based on army, list, playstyle, meta, relative skill, terrain, etc, and they just lead everyone around and around endlessly.

 

@Beams, just because you have a troop unit in your army that can kill a lot of guardsmen doesn't mean everyone else does, and only Ultramarines have access to full rerolls. Even with the support of Gman, a guardsmen is still more effecient than a tactical marine, before orders. Bolter marines dont have problems hitting or wounding guardsmen, they lack shot volume, which rerolls don't help with.

 

And even so, as Ishagu notes, vaping a squad of guardsmen is only killing 40 pts.

Same as killing just 3 marines.

 

 

Your claims about your sisters melting guard lists doesn't help anyone who isn't playing an army that can take 13 pt stormbolters with 3+ bs dude

(Hence why I don't like anecdotes)

 

Soup lists definetely exacerbate the issue, as their isn't a downside to just throwing a battalion or even a brigade of super cheap guard onto a list.

[Beams]

Bolter Marines do, however all have access to rerolls.

 

Lt's and Cpts will in prove your Marines shooting, and 20 Bolter shots are pretty good, plus you always have the option to finish them in melee.

 

Imperial Fists prevent guard from getting cover, which makes it easier to kill them. Raven Guard are harder to kill. Ultramarines might get better rerolls, but you'd prolly be better off with more tactical Marines.

 

And it's not about points, it's about taking out guards anti infantry and ability to hold objectives.