Are the Astra Militarum really overpowered?

[Firepower]

To be fair, despite my (burning, seething, overwhelming) anger over the loss of templates in regards to my precious Vindicators, old cover rules crippled them just as effectively at times.  I could land a template on top of 12 Guardsmen and kill one, because they were behind a knee high wall.  It just adds insult to injury that they don't even have to bother with sitting in cover now...all out there in the open, dozens of them, just making me crave that old Pie Plate of Punishment...

 

Yeah, I still miss templates.  It's not an IG thing, it's a horde thing. 

[Melete]

Heh, during previous editions when discussion on the save mechanism came up, there were always lots of people who argued that cover and such should give a minus to hit. I always argued against, since it basically impossible to balance when some armies hit on 5+ (so -1 reduces their firepower by half) and some hit on 3+ (so -1 reduces their firepower bu 25%). Somehow getting a -2 or more essentially breaks the game.

 

Added resilience from being hard to hit needs to be resolved by T boost or Save boosts (and this applies to all those -1 to hit abilites the lots of armies have too!).

 

So, give indirect fire a special rule: "Take Cover!: If a unit is hit by indirect fire and the attacking unit does not have LOS to them, they gain a +2 save bonus if they are in cover, and a +1 save bonus if the are in the open". Or something like that. they could get to ignore wounds suffered on a 5+ like FnP.

I didn't play during previous editions, but a lot of the power of negative hit modifiers is how they play with rerolls. Now that reroll auras are a large portion of certain armies (loyalist Marines) abilities, and if I'm hitting on 5s vs an Eldar flyer I can't reroll 3s and 4s, even if I have a Chapter Master nearby. It's a strong rules interaction that saps away at some of the synergies I'm trying to build in my army. Game breaking? Nah. Just incredibly strong.

 

FWIW, I don't think Guard artillery need a -1 to hit or cover rules or whatever. They're good, but being good's okay. Hell, it's not even remotely the dirtiest thing you can do in 40k right now (that just might be Dark Reaper shenanigans).

[NatBrannigan]

It does seem that every other army has stronger choices than Guard, and that plenty of armies really cripple Guard when you come up against them. Hell, I even played with the acid rain "twist" giving a blanket -1 to hit the other day and couldn't hit a barn door... Bullgryns were the best unit that day and I lost horribly to Tyranids.

 

Almost as if Guard are a well designed codex with decent choices throughout, not as strong as some, not as weak as some. Unless you're playing on graph paper with a calculator.

 

Some of the arguments are very selective here...

 

"Leman Russ tanks are too good!"

"Actually they kill about the same as a Predator for similar points"

"Well... on their own they do but they're never on their own!"

"Unlike Predators which have to be? Don't Marines get far easier access to re-roll to hit and wound bubbles?"

"Infantry screens! Artillery! Orders! The corporations!"

 

Now again I'm sorry Marines are a little underwhelming at the moment (I use them too you know!) but I think we've exhausted talking about actual issues with Guard and potential sensible solutions and are now just lashing out with increasingly odd arguments.

[Beams]

Leman russes were pants without the fire twice. They now are around a predator, and it was a simple solution and it does come with a think a drawback - reduced move speed.

[Feral_80]

It seems a lot of people like to lecture on game balance without having actually played, or without being able to play anyway.

Artillery needing a nerf? Just lol. Have a look at the current game meta, apparently you have not recovered from an initial (and long gone) shock due to Manticores.

LR overpowered? Yeah, in your dreams. A couple of them are *good *, but certainly not op. And most of their variants are just poor, simply put. Anybody trying to argue that LR should be nerfed should play some more games, apparently.

 

On the other hand, I do agree that the *real* issue is that Marines seem a bit underwhelming at the moment. Which is weird, considering they are GW's posterboys, but perhaps not totally surprising, given that 'new GW' is now quite clearly still close to 'old GW' in regard to balancing the game.

[Mileposter]

While I'm usually one to say that most consumers don't have a good grasp on game balance - let's keep to civility, eh?

 

If folks think their fix is a good one, then try it out. Play three-to-five games with it, then play three-to-five games against it. Theoryhammer doesn't do anyone any good.

[crimsondave]

Going up 10 points a squad would make a big difference, imo.  Conscripts are 4 points, regulars should be 5 points, and Vets are already 6.  It would give us a reason to use conscripts again too.

 

As a guard player, I don't really see how we are that much better than Eldar, Death Guard, or Tyranids really.  We're probably are a little above those codex wise, but not by a wide margin.  As mentioned already in the thread, marines are just not that great in 8th.  That's the issue.  I'd bet, when the Tau dex hits, they'll be right in the mix.

[Ishagu]

I do agree there is a lot of hyperbole in this topic.

Some Leman Russ variants are great, others good, some less so. None are overpowered.

 

Guard are simply a great codex that can leverage multiple vehicles and disposable infantry in enough quantity to function well.

 

As I said in my first comment here, Guard are probably the best single codex but truly "overpowered" isn't the correct word to use.

[Zodd1888]

I do agree there is a lot of hyperbole in this topic.

Some Leman Russ variants are great, others good, some less so. None are overpowered.

 

Guard are simply a great codex that can leverage multiple vehicles and disposable infantry in enough quantity to function well.

 

As I said in my first comment here, Guard are probably the best single codex but truly "overpowered" isn't the correct word to use.

That's fair Ishagu. The codex just doesn't have a weak spot. Bodies, high toughness, indirect fire, and undeniable powers. While other Codices have gaps or apparent weakenesses, guard have enough options to fill weaknesses while being reasonably cost.

[Ishagu]

Yeah. I don't think we've seen the full effect of Eldar yet. The LVO will be the first massive tournament since the Eldar codex and Cheapter Approved have been out. I think Eldar have Guard beat 9/10 times if running the -1 to hit craftworld.

 

Remember guys, there is a difference between the most powerful codex and an overpowering codex. Guard have an edge in a lot of scenarios but they can still be defeated by any other book. An overpowered army like Eldar in 7th doesn't exist in the current game.

[Scurrae]

It seems a lot of people like to lecture on game balance without having actually played, or without being able to play anyway.

 

Artillery needing a nerf? Just lol. Have a look at the current game meta, apparently you have not recovered from an initial (and long gone) shock due to Manticores.

 

LR overpowered? Yeah, in your dreams. A couple of them are *good *, but certainly not op. And most of their variants are just poor, simply put. Anybody trying to argue that LR should be nerfed should play some more games, apparently.

All agree with,

LR is juste good at surviving...

Next time you (poeple) play against someone who use some, juste don't consider them as priority target (unless commander), and see how much they impact in the whole game... (and every cannon with random number of attacks on a non commander go from "non priority" to "avoid waste your attacks on it"... litteraly).

Artillery needing a nerf ?

... that's sound cool to me, who give a  of IG artillery anyway ?

 

What's weird (IMO) is that most of complain against Guards here do not conserne units that really make Guard competitive... Maybe some should juste go watch results of major tournaments...

If an army is over powered, you see it juste by looking the classments,

If your army composition is bad, you see it juste by looking armies of math-geeks...

And if you loose a game, tell yourself that "something is wrong with your army or the way you play it" instead of "this is cheated"... well, there is still a chance for this to be cheated, but, lets be honest : the other will be most of the time the most accurate statment of both (And I know what I'm talking about).

 

PS : the only thing I found not right in the game is the way some can abuse of mortal wound... it can be... really "cancer".

[Melete]

Some LVO lists are up on Best Coast now.

 

Immediate take aways: Ynnari/Eldar dominated (surprise!). There's two Soup lists with Guard in the top 8, a Blood Angels list with a Guard brigade ft. 100 Guardsmen and 3 HWTs, and a Space Wolves / Blood Angels list with two Imperium battalions ft. 60 Guardsmen total. Only one pure AM list in the top 16, but several more Soups with Guard sprinkled in. Most Imperium lists end up being Imperium soup, which oftentimes does mean some Guard units (the most popular by far being Infantry Squads).

 

Interesting stuff to chew through.

 

(Since I apparently need to say it explicitly given certain comments in this thread: still not saying Guard are OP, kthx)

[Firepower]

Edit- never mind, I'm dumb.

 

Any pure SM forces in those top rankings?  Without Guilliman?  I know it's obviously an AM thread, but if the matter comes down to SM being under powered versus AM being over powered, it's good to have a little data.

[Ishagu]

Edit- never mind, I'm dumb.

 

Any pure SM forces in those top rankings? Without Guilliman? I know it's obviously an AM thread, but if the matter comes down to SM being under powered versus AM being over powered, it's good to have a little data.

A pure Blood Angels list in the top 8, yes. Two other lists with BA and Guard allies. The rest are Eldar and a Death Guard list.

 

No Guilliman anywhere near the top tables. I keep telling people that when you play with LoS blocking and persue objectives that Ultra gunlines simply don't work that well.

[Scurrae]

Some LVO lists are up on Best Coast now.

 

Immediate take aways: Ynnari/Eldar dominated (surprise!). There's two Soup lists with Guard in the top 8, a Blood Angels list with a Guard brigade ft. 100 Guardsmen and 3 HWTs, and a Space Wolves / Blood Angels list with two Imperium battalions ft. 60 Guardsmen total. Only one pure AM list in the top 16, but several more Soups with Guard sprinkled in. Most Imperium lists end up being Imperium soup, which oftentimes does mean some Guard units (the most popular by far being Infantry Squads).

 

Interesting stuff to chew through.

 

(Since I apparently need to say it explicitly given certain comments in this thread: still not saying Guard are OP, kthx)

 

So... we maybe... could consider that this is stratagems restrictions the problem ?

Since only one AM, and lot of Battalions/Brigads, juste a supposition (I don't have any results/battle report) : It sound like "how a soup army can use stratagems" is the game-breaker here. Or am I just stubborn ?

 

(thanks for the infos BTW)

[Feral_80]

Tl; dr: AM is certainly not OP. Eldar (Alaitoc?) probably is. Additional issue, some game mechanics: -1 hit and the way soup lists interact with CP etc.

 

I'll be curios to hear those who used to whine about AM over the next months. I.e., I suspect, SM players, formerly frustrated Eldar players, and generally people who have not yet played the game enough.

[Colonel Cross]

Maybe a little off topic here:

 

I'm not really sure why we care about tournament information anyway. It doesn't sound like most people here even play in them. I watched a few on Warhammer TV and they mostly ended on turn 2. Lists almost seemed designed to achieve as many points as possible in those 2 turns. Only key takeaways to me would be if certain craftworlds/regiments/chapters etc or warlord traits were the only ones being used and what type of soup lists were used. Personally, I dislike most allied lists. Call me old school but I don't like superheavies or allies in standard games.

 

In my games with friends they certainly go beyond 2 turns. Guard shine in late game with MMM! and scattered units picking up points in normal games. ITC tournaments feel almost like a fundamentally different game than the standard 40k missions!

 

The only reason these tournaments can even provide any sort of information to be gleamed is because there were like 400+ players or something? But who here even plays ITC tournaments? And if you want a tabletop wargame that is balanced for tournament play, don't those games exist? Seems silly to continually try to turn 40k into that when it's clearly not GWs intention if you ever listen to any of their employees speak about 40k.

 

I want the game to be balanced as much as anyone. I just hope people can remain patient and unbiased until every codex is out, not jump to conclusions or use speculation, and, most importantly, don't whine to GW until something is CLEARLY an issue since they seem content to listen to the loudest masses and take a sledgehammer to things which require a scalpel.

[Feral_80]

I totally agree that tournaments suck badly, and that the only funny way to play 40k is friendly games.

 

However, despite what they declare, unfortunately it seems that GW is basing most of its (often questionable, apparently) balancing efforts on feedback from tournament scenarios, organizers, and players. Which is exactly like taking a sledgehammer to do the work of a scalpel, but hey.

[Claws and Effect]

In theory, if something is balanced for competitive play, it SHOULD be balanced for casual play.

 

Doesn't always hold true, though.

[Lexington]

In theory, if something is balanced for competitive play, it SHOULD be balanced for casual play.

 

Doesn't always hold true, though.

This and this forever!

 

I've seen games (hi, Warmachine!) that lived on the idea of "competitive balance" where whole factions didn't show up at major events for years because they didn't have access to a hard counter for whatever crazy Warcaster and/or unit combo was busily blowing armies directly off the table without breaking a sweat.

 

I haven't gotten in much 8th Ed yet, but I'm not sure if it's in an entirely dissimilar place.

[crimsondave]

So Eldar can get -3 to hit now?  Yeah, AM is not overpowered.  We can't even hit Eldar.

[Melete]

So Eldar can get -3 to hit now?  Yeah, AM is not overpowered.  We can't even hit Eldar.

Don't worry, if you want to hit Eldar reliably you just need to play Eldar.

[depthcharge12]

 

 

So Eldar can get -3 to hit now? Yeah, AM is not overpowered. We can't even hit Eldar.

Don't worry, if you want to hit Eldar reliably you just need to play Eldar.

https://m.imgur.com/t/cao_cao/PfVujrQ

 

Funny Ynnari is still up there despite what the talking heads said. I’m going to have to agree that 2 turns is by no means a way to determine the outcome of a game, nor does it allow you to “come back”.

 

I’m glad that Morty/Magnus deep strike was strangled in the cradle. If all these mainstay marine armies needed to take guard to ameliorate their list, doesn’t that speak to the level of how strong Eldar/Ynnari troops are? They don’t even need allies to cover an inherent flaw in their army ability.

[Ishagu]

After everything is said and done, Eldar are once again on top.

I think it took the community a bit of time to realise this

 

I see complaints all the time about Guard being OP, or Guilliman, etc, but the truth is that they are fine. Eldar has a very strong book with dice manipulation, mobility and impressive, reliable firepower.

[Feral_80]

I've been saying this for months now, mainly in reply to all eggheads that advocated that AM is broken.

 

The Leopard is always right: "Everything must change so that everything stays the same"