Are the Astra Militarum really overpowered?

[NatBrannigan]

Well that should end the moaning about Guard then. Good ole' Eldar.

 

We may be able to roll lots of dice, but I guarantee none of them will be showing a 7 when they stop bouncing...

[Beams]

Well that should end the moaning about Guard then. Good ole' Eldar.

 

We may be able to roll lots of dice, but I guarantee none of them will be showing a 7 when they stop bouncing...

You just have to drill an extra hole between the two rows on the six. There's nothing in rules saying that you can't do that... ;)

[BitsHammer]

 

Well that should end the moaning about Guard then. Good ole' Eldar.

 

We may be able to roll lots of dice, but I guarantee none of them will be showing a 7 when they stop bouncing...

You just have to drill an extra hole between the two rows on the six. There's nothing in rules saying that you can't do that...

 

"These are my seven sided D6s...."

 

References to movies with Schwarzenegger no one has seen aside, I feel like that volume of shots definitely feels like the way the game is moving, but at the same time we have all these armies unlocking -1 to hit (at a distance...mostly) to force quantity into being even more inferior with certain army builds (Orks and Guard mainly).

 

Basically I feel like we should be both taking higher volume of fire weapons, but at the same time making sure that said higher volumes of fire either have good ballistic skill or good mobility.

 

At least that's what the current overall meta of 40k makes me feel like. Who knows what it'll feel like in 6 months from now.

[Beams]

 

 

 

Well that should end the moaning about Guard then. Good ole' Eldar.

 

We may be able to roll lots of dice, but I guarantee none of them will be showing a 7 when they stop bouncing...

You just have to drill an extra hole between the two rows on the six. There's nothing in rules saying that you can't do that...

"These are my seven sided D6s...."

 

References to movies with Schwarzenegger no one has seen aside, I feel like that volume of shots definitely feels like the way the game is moving, but at the same time we have all these armies unlocking -1 to hit (at a distance...mostly) to force quantity into being even more inferior with certain army builds (Orks and Guard mainly).

 

Basically I feel like we should be both taking higher volume of fire weapons, but at the same time making sure that said higher volumes of fire either have good ballistic skill or good mobility.

 

At least that's what the current overall meta of 40k makes me feel like. Who knows what it'll feel like in 6 months from now.

If your BS isn't 3+ your going to really feel Altiaoc or others like it, so you want to be playing Marines. But if you are worried about guard, you want bodies and bullets so you want as many Bolters/stormbolters/heavy Bolters are you can carry, which goes against conventional wisdom and is going to get you messed up if you fight a custodes/plague marine/khorne berzerker list...

 

The meta is weird, and I imagine it's only going to get weirder as we move towards full-codices.

[Ishagu]

-1 is just the start if it. They can get units with -3. At that point even Chapter Master or Guilliman re rolls are useless.

 

Anyways, hey ho.

[The Unseen]

I think if combat wasn't so sub-par compared to shooting, the stacking -1s wouldn't be such a big deal, though the fact that they exist at all is pretty silly.

-1 is fine balance wise, -2 is pushing it, especially when it's one something as mobile and tough as a flyer, -3 is just absurd.

[Beams]

I think if combat wasn't so sub-par compared to shooting, the stacking -1s wouldn't be such a big deal, though the fact that they exist at all is pretty silly.

-1 is fine balance wise, -2 is pushing it, especially when it's one something as mobile and tough as a flyer, -3 is just absurd.

I honestly think melee is absurdly good. Especially since a lot of factions have options for turn one charges and/or ignore overwatch, that destroy my units abilities to function in game. I mean, what is a squad of tactical Marines/sisters/guard going to do in combat vs Khorne berzerkers/blood angels?

 

If they kill you, they consolidate into another squad and kill them on your turn. If they don't kill you on their turn, they try again on my turn and then charge another unit.

 

Which is why everyone suggests having strong counter charge units, since combat is really good and requires planning for.

[The Unseen]

 

I think if combat wasn't so sub-par compared to shooting, the stacking -1s wouldn't be such a big deal, though the fact that they exist at all is pretty silly.

-1 is fine balance wise, -2 is pushing it, especially when it's one something as mobile and tough as a flyer, -3 is just absurd.

I honestly think melee is absurdly good. Especially since a lot of factions have options for turn one charges and/or ignore overwatch, that destroy my units abilities to function in game. I mean, what is a squad of tactical Marines/sisters/guard going to do in combat vs Khorne berzerkers/blood angels?

 

If they kill you, they consolidate into another squad and kill them on your turn. If they don't kill you on their turn, they try again on my turn and then charge another unit.

 

Which is why everyone suggests having strong counter charge units, since combat is really good and requires planning for.

Maybe don't have your units be standing right next to each other, and have screening units?

It's super easy to deny those first turn charges hitting anything important, and they all require heavy investment in both points and CP.

Its a whole lot easier to negate important charges than it is to avoid being shot.

[Beams]

 

 

I think if combat wasn't so sub-par compared to shooting, the stacking -1s wouldn't be such a big deal, though the fact that they exist at all is pretty silly.

-1 is fine balance wise, -2 is pushing it, especially when it's one something as mobile and tough as a flyer, -3 is just absurd.

I honestly think melee is absurdly good. Especially since a lot of factions have options for turn one charges and/or ignore overwatch, that destroy my units abilities to function in game. I mean, what is a squad of tactical Marines/sisters/guard going to do in combat vs Khorne berzerkers/blood angels?

 

If they kill you, they consolidate into another squad and kill them on your turn. If they don't kill you on their turn, they try again on my turn and then charge another unit.

 

Which is why everyone suggests having strong counter charge units, since combat is really good and requires planning for.

Maybe don't have your units be standing right next to each other, and have screening units?

It's super easy to deny those first turn charges hitting anything important, and they all require heavy investment in both points and CP.

Its a whole lot easier to negate important charges than it is to avoid being shot.

First: your assuming I'm a :cussty player, and that I'm saying this always happens to me instead of this CAN happen.

 

If I have to change my entire list to prevent you from smashing my forces turn one, you've already proven it's powerful enough.

 

Also, a 12 pt eviscerator makes your 4 attacks to Str 5 ap-4 D3 damage. A 10 pt heavy Bolter is 3 Str 5 AP -1 d1 so melee is better pt for pt, because of the range limitations

 

 

All I'm saying is melee is good, anf there are plenty of options to make it work.

[Melete]

-1 is just the start if it. They can get units with -3. At that point even Chapter Master or Guilliman re rolls are useless.

 

Anyways, hey ho.

For the time being, Dark Reaper meta creates an odd situation where Eldar flyers are weaker than usual, because Eldar are so good at shooting Eldar flyers and without their defense they just end up being overcosted units.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Tl; dr: AM is certainly not OP. Eldar (Alaitoc?) probably is. Additional issue, some game mechanics: -1 hit and the way soup lists interact with CP etc.

 

I'll be curios to hear those who used to whine about AM over the next months. I.e., I suspect, SM players, formerly frustrated Eldar players, and generally people who have not yet played the game enough.

 

Its worth pointing out that it is one tournament (Granted a big one), and that Ynnari played a big role in it (The large squad of reapers was always part of that detachment in the 3 lists that were effectively the same in the top 8). Being able to fire twice is stupidly good, and reapers need to go up at least 10 points apiece.

 

As far as what people will say, I'm hoping its, something around the lines of; I'm glad GW didn't wait to march to nerf dark reapers, and change hit modifiers. I don't think multiple effects that add or subtract from rolls should stack, just keep the best positive one, and compare it too harshest negative one. In addition a hit roll of six hits automatically regardless of modifiers. Finally restrict psychic powers and pregame stratagems to only working on units in a codex fraction detachment. Then people will either complain about guard or chaos lol.

 

 

So Eldar can get -3 to hit now?  Yeah, AM is not overpowered.  We can't even hit Eldar.

 

Depending on the unit they can actually go higher, (rangers and a few other units that have -1 to hit base). It does take some work though (and being Altioc), we would need to cast conceal (so you would know before your shooting phase), and use 2cp stratagem which we use when you declare targets so if you split fire too make it tougher decision. 

 

Its frustrating because I play Eldar and the codex doesn't have a happy medium (either great with Alaitoc, or pretty bad with the others). So hopefully at some point they address those as well, but they need to nerf Alaitoc & reapers first. 

[Colonel Cross]

 

 

I think if combat wasn't so sub-par compared to shooting, the stacking -1s wouldn't be such a big deal, though the fact that they exist at all is pretty silly.

-1 is fine balance wise, -2 is pushing it, especially when it's one something as mobile and tough as a flyer, -3 is just absurd.

I honestly think melee is absurdly good. Especially since a lot of factions have options for turn one charges and/or ignore overwatch, that destroy my units abilities to function in game. I mean, what is a squad of tactical Marines/sisters/guard going to do in combat vs Khorne berzerkers/blood angels?

If they kill you, they consolidate into another squad and kill them on your turn. If they don't kill you on their turn, they try again on my turn and then charge another unit.

Which is why everyone suggests having strong counter charge units, since combat is really good and requires planning for.

Maybe don't have your units be standing right next to each other, and have screening units?

It's super easy to deny those first turn charges hitting anything important, and they all require heavy investment in both points and CP.

Its a whole lot easier to negate important charges than it is to avoid being shot.

It's avoidable most of the time. BUT when 2 enemy units hit 1 guard squad and the first unit wipes them (which is pretty easy) that 2nd enemy unit can then pile in 3" THEN consolidate 3" which is usually much further than most players account for. It's screwed me hard a few times.

[Claws and Effect]

They need to take the -1 to hit away from Eldar vehicles. Raven Guard and Alpha Legion aren't overpowered with Infantry, dreads, and bikes getting it.

 

If I could stack another -1 on top of the -1 My Fire Raptor already gets it would be a different story, since it's already pretty durable for a flyer.

[Gentlemanloser]

Always hit on 3+ regardless of mods is bonkers.

 

That needs to go.

[Feral_80]

 

Its frustrating because I play Eldar and the codex doesn't have a happy medium (either great with Alaitoc, or pretty bad with the others). So hopefully at some point they address those as well, but they need to nerf Alaitoc & reapers first. 

 

 

Fair enough. That's my take as well - the E:CW codex is really badly designed because it gives you 1 blatantly overpowered craftworld (Alaitoc), 1 semi-good (Iyanden), and 3 that are playable but generally mediocre, compared to other options. 

 

The result is that Eldar powerboys have 90% switched to the overpowered choice, and Eldar have attracted - once more - the general hatred that they had attracted in 7th ed. (by then, for deserved reasons, to be honest). But I understand that some Eldar players are people too, and they can reasonably be pissed off by this situation.

 

Unfortunately, it is extremely unlikely that at this point GW can really fix this mess: it would require rewriting some fundamental rules both in codexes and in the rulebook. I don't see it happening. The best they can do at this point is to increase the points cost of Reapers and fix a few rules here and there. Hope they do not do it as poorly as they did with Conscripts, or you might end up with unplayable Reapers. I guess we'll wait for March.

[Gentlemanloser]

Conscripts are now fine.

 

All you need to do is ally in an AC with Relic Vexilla to auto pass Moral... /s

 

Edit: No one thinks Raven Guard are OP.  I think Alaitoc would be fine if two things change;

 

1: Craftworld bonus doesn't apply to vehicles

2: There weren't Stratgems that stacked more minuses to hit on top of it

 

It's the Reapers themselves that are bonkers.

 

Plus the shenanigans of stacking two 'craftworld' keywords on units (Ynarri plus one other) in order to access strats or army wide rerolls you otherwise shouldn't have.

 

For example taking a Ynarri + Alaitoc Autarch to give your entire craftworld Alaitoc detachments (not Ynarri detachments) rerolls.

[Feral_80]

That's true, but do you really think it would be easy for GW to rewrite all those rules? They might do it, but I see it as unlikely. It is quite complicated to adjust the way these rules interact, and it would require substantial codex updates. It would also mean to implicitly admit how poor the original design was, which is not exactly something they are fine with. 

 

Conscripts are not fine, they suck. Even with a Custodes banner. But that's ok, I hate them 

[Gentlemanloser]

Easy and quick fixes.

 

Errata the Alaitoc rule to not effect vehicles.  And Errata Lightning Reflexes to not stack with Alaitoc Craftworld, anyone with the Flier battlefield role, or Rangers.

 

Then amend Inescapable Accuracy to always hit on a 6+.  Or ignore only -1 to Hit.  Or something far less abusive than always hit anything on a 3+, regardless of the amount of game rules you get to ignore.

 

Ynarri is harder to fix, but they need a proper write up anyway.  I wonder if something as simple as you *replace* the Craftworld keyword with Ynarri, rather than gain Ynarri as an addition might be a quick and simple errata.

[Captain Idaho]

It's an issue that needs to be discussed in a dedicated thread since it is so crucial, but the issue of terrain is the biggest problem with 40K.

 

For a game to be fun and balanced we need to play on tables with around 6-7 large line of sight blocking pieces. I recently played in a tournament where the tables were open because the organisers used their local club terrain...

 

...all bought from GW. Take a look at that terrain. Much of it allows you to draw line of sight through it to your target, through windows, cracks in masonry etc. It's essentially useless.

 

If people played on terrain filled boards we wouldn't see players just rolling up with gun lines that hit hard and 1st turn victories.

 

Only when the community realises their tables are insufficient and sorts it out can we have a meaningful discussion on the power of some armies over others.

[Gentlemanloser]

Not every battle is, nor should be, set up in a ruined city with large LoS blocking terrain.

 

Plus the Reaper exarch doesn't need LoS (can't remember off top of my head if Maugan-Ra needs LoS as well), and LoS blocking terrain doesn't really bother Deep Striking Armies, or Flier Heavy Armies either.

 

Terrain isn't the magic bullet.  The underlying issues need to be fixed instead.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Unfortunately, it is extremely unlikely that at this point GW can really fix this mess: it would require rewriting some fundamental rules both in codexes and in the rulebook. I don't see it happening. The best they can do at this point is to increase the points cost of Reapers and fix a few rules here and there. Hope they do not do it as poorly as they did with Conscripts, or you might end up with unplayable Reapers. I guess we'll wait for March.

 

Not sure if it would be enough, but one easy change I would love to see is go back to the intuitive interpretation of rerolls and modifiers, and have rerolls kick in after accounting for modifiers, so you could reroll that 3 when shooting with a -1, because it's been modified to a 2 (overheats should also only trigger on 'natural' 1s). Now this probably wouldn't be enough on it's own, but would certainly help, be more sensible and allow the reroll buffs to keep their relevance as GW continues to hand out negative to hit modifiers like they're going out of fashion.

 

[Feral_80]

I think that (terrible) rule was originally meant to limit the usefulness of rerolls.

 

It ended up as both a stupidly complicated nonsense to remember, and something that did not keep the pace with the abuse of to hit modifiers.

 

Ideally, I'd just drop rerolls altogether: they slow down the game horribly and really add little. But then again, the core problem of 40k is that it is still based on a d6 system, and with that limited number of possibilities there are not many ways to introduce variability and buffs, so I cannot think to a viable alternative to replace rerolls unless they switch to e.g. d10. But I believe GW is too conservative for that.

[NatBrannigan]

Switching to a D-10 system could be amazing, you'd be able to spread out the different units more so Marines feel more powerful without being insanely powerful etc. It's something I've been hoping for for a while but it would need a massive re-boot. Something like 8th edition or the move to age of sigmar. Ah well :(

 

I see this thread has now moved on to moaning about Eldar. I'll call that mission accomplished and we can all for home now  :D

[Captain Idaho]

Not every battle is, nor should be, set up in a ruined city with large LoS blocking terrain.

 

Plus the Reaper exarch doesn't need LoS (can't remember off top of my head if Maugan-Ra needs LoS as well), and LoS blocking terrain doesn't really bother Deep Striking Armies, or Flier Heavy Armies either.

 

Terrain isn't the magic bullet.  The underlying issues need to be fixed instead.

Not a city scape, but definitely should have 6-7 line of sight blocking terrain.

 

Even a desert should have a large rocky outcrop or two, a large dune, a few wrecks etc that blocks line of sight. Not GW hills that a model can see over.

 

As for an Exarch Dark Reaper... That's not breaking the game. It's his 9 squad mates and 2 other mirrored squads that are breaking the game.

[Gentlemanloser]

All LoS blocking terrain does is favour mobility over static gun lines.  It doesn't fix anything else.  The Reapers just pile into a Wave Serpent, relocate and obliterate.

 

They are the problem, they need to be fixed.