Cypher and the Fallen Rules?

[ValourousHeart]

I'm looking for Cypher's rules and trying to figure out which book to buy.

I've seen his entry in the Chaos Index.

But I don't know if he is in the Chaos Codex.

 

[Sgt. Blank]

Rules for Cypher and Fallen are in Codex Heretic Astartes (Chaos Space Marines).

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

He and the Fallen are both in the CSM Codex.

[ChazSexington]

Just so you're not disappointed, the rules themselves are very underwhelming due to their lack of synergy with the rest of the codex. 

[ValourousHeart]

I figured they would be underwhelming, they are essentially a vet squad without many support options that make sense fluff wise.

And the support squads that do make sense don't have fallen rules.

I have felt for years that they should be rolled into codex DA as a sub-chapter.

 

The index is about half the cost of the codex, is the codex worth the extra cost if you are mostly looking for Cypher and Fallen?

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

The Index entry is basically the same as the Codex, except the note that Cypher can never have a Warlord Trait (Codex). That and the cost of a few generic weapon options (power fists, etc.) have changed.

 

On their utility, they make a great midfield gunline for certain armies like Knights or Renegades and Heretics who may not always have shooty midrange elite troops available.

[ChazSexington]

I figured they would be underwhelming, they are essentially a vet squad without many support options that make sense fluff wise.

And the support squads that do make sense don't have fallen rules.

I have felt for years that they should be rolled into codex DA as a sub-chapter.

 

The index is about half the cost of the codex, is the codex worth the extra cost if you are mostly looking for Cypher and Fallen?

 

I would go for the codex - better with fully up to date rules. 

 

The Index entry is basically the same as the Codex, except the note that Cypher can never have a Warlord Trait (Codex). That and the cost of a few generic weapon options (power fists, etc.) have changed.

 

On their utility, they make a great midfield gunline for certain armies like Knights or Renegades and Heretics who may not always have shooty midrange elite troops available.

 

Why do you think they're great? A squad of Havocs or Chosen with plasma guns + MoS and a better and cheaper Chaos Lord does everything they do, but better. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

I figured they would be underwhelming, they are essentially a vet squad without many support options that make sense fluff wise.

And the support squads that do make sense don't have fallen rules.

I have felt for years that they should be rolled into codex DA as a sub-chapter.

 

The index is about half the cost of the codex, is the codex worth the extra cost if you are mostly looking for Cypher and Fallen?

 

I would go for the codex - better with fully up to date rules. 

 

The Index entry is basically the same as the Codex, except the note that Cypher can never have a Warlord Trait (Codex). That and the cost of a few generic weapon options (power fists, etc.) have changed.

 

On their utility, they make a great midfield gunline for certain armies like Knights or Renegades and Heretics who may not always have shooty midrange elite troops available.

 

Why do you think they're great? A squad of Havocs or Chosen with plasma guns + MoS and a better and cheaper Chaos Lord does everything they do, but better. 

 

They're cheaper than Chosen and only 1pt more expensive than Havocs and you can bring one more weapon. When stationary, they reroll 1's without needing a Lord to babysit them, and you can field a 10 man squad (for anti-infantry firepower added to say Combi-Bolters and Heavy Bolter) without worrying about Morale since they can lose a max of 1 model.

 

The two armies I mentioned don't have Regiment/Legion type traits, so you can slot the Fallen right into a Chaos Detachment with them instead of needing a separate Chaos Space Marine detachment.

 

Also, Cypher can be Warlord, even though he doesn't get a trait, which gives those armies a Warlord who can die with a possibility of not giving up Slay.

 

In most CSM armies, they don't have much of a place. In R&H or Renegade Knight-focused armies, they're usable, especially since most of the Covenants for R&H are difficult to use effectively and Renegade Commanders aren't very survivable. Marauders (your nearest equivalent), should be set up somewhere with Sniper Rifles or falling out of Valkyries to shoot something to death at pointblank range, not stiffening a gunline. That's where Fallen are a great option, at least as far as I see it.

 

EDIT: A bit more: Chosen have to drop their Boltgun to get a Melee weapon. Fallen don't. They just get to "take one item" from the Melee Weapon list, so they can rock a special melee weapon and a Bolter or the very cheap, optimized combo of a Bolter and Chainsword.

 

Also, since they're a gunline unit, they'll fit well in a Renegade Chapters CSM army, whose gunline units will lose the benefit of their Legion Trait by standing still. They don't get that trait anyway and get something else beneficial instead, so they can hold the middle while Renegade CSM units go forward.

Edited January 24, 2018 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[ChazSexington]

 

 

I figured they would be underwhelming, they are essentially a vet squad without many support options that make sense fluff wise.

And the support squads that do make sense don't have fallen rules.

I have felt for years that they should be rolled into codex DA as a sub-chapter.

 

The index is about half the cost of the codex, is the codex worth the extra cost if you are mostly looking for Cypher and Fallen?

 

I would go for the codex - better with fully up to date rules. 

 

The Index entry is basically the same as the Codex, except the note that Cypher can never have a Warlord Trait (Codex). That and the cost of a few generic weapon options (power fists, etc.) have changed.

 

On their utility, they make a great midfield gunline for certain armies like Knights or Renegades and Heretics who may not always have shooty midrange elite troops available.

 

Why do you think they're great? A squad of Havocs or Chosen with plasma guns + MoS and a better and cheaper Chaos Lord does everything they do, but better. 

 

They're cheaper than Chosen and only 1pt more expensive than Havocs and you can bring one more weapon. When stationary, they reroll 1's without needing a Lord to babysit them, and you can field a 10 man squad (for anti-infantry firepower added to say Combi-Bolters and Heavy Bolter) without worrying about Morale since they can lose a max of 1 model.

 

The two armies I mentioned don't have Regiment/Legion type traits, so you can slot the Fallen right into a Chaos Detachment with them instead of needing a separate Chaos Space Marine detachment.

 

Also, Cypher can be Warlord, even though he doesn't get a trait, which gives those armies a Warlord who can die with a possibility of not giving up Slay.

 

In most CSM armies, they don't have much of a place. In R&H or Renegade Knight-focused armies, they're usable, especially since most of the Covenants for R&H are difficult to use effectively and Renegade Commanders aren't very survivable. Marauders (your nearest equivalent), should be set up somewhere with Sniper Rifles or falling out of Valkyries to shoot something to death at pointblank range, not stiffening a gunline. That's where Fallen are a great option, at least as far as I see it.

 

EDIT: A bit more: Chosen have to drop their Boltgun to get a Melee weapon. Fallen don't. They just get to "take one item" from the Melee Weapon list, so they can rock a special melee weapon and a Bolter or the very cheap, optimized combo of a Bolter and Chainsword.

 

Also, since they're a gunline unit, they'll fit well in a Renegade Chapters CSM army, whose gunline units will lose the benefit of their Legion Trait by standing still. They don't get that trait anyway and get something else beneficial instead, so they can hold the middle while Renegade CSM units go forward.

 

 

Just a wee point - the take one item from the mêlée list actually goes at the expense of special weapons. 

 

Any model may replace its boltgun with a chainsword.

• Up to four Fallen may choose one of the following options:

• Replace bolt pistol with a plasma pistol.

• Replace boltgun with one item from the Combi-weapons or Special Weapons lists.

• Replace bolt pistol and boltgun with two lightning claws.

• Take one item from the Melee Weapons list.

 

• One additional Fallen may replace his boltgun with one item from the Special Weapons or Heavy Weapons lists.

• The Fallen Champion may replace his boltgun and/or bolt pistol with one item from the Champion

Equipment list.

 

I see what you mean, mind! The standing still thing is actually not very good, having used it a lot. The re-rolling 1s when standing still means they should be wielding long-range guns, but they can max take a single heavy weapon, so the have to get plasma guns, which aren't very effective at long range. 

 

I see what you mean with the Renegade Chapters though. I still think I would take MoS Havocs, so they could benefit from any HQs in the area. I've been using them with my Alpha Legion, and they've been terrible.

 

 

Edited January 25, 2018 by ChazSexington

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I figured they would be underwhelming, they are essentially a vet squad without many support options that make sense fluff wise.

And the support squads that do make sense don't have fallen rules.

I have felt for years that they should be rolled into codex DA as a sub-chapter.

 

The index is about half the cost of the codex, is the codex worth the extra cost if you are mostly looking for Cypher and Fallen?

I would go for the codex - better with fully up to date rules.

The Index entry is basically the same as the Codex, except the note that Cypher can never have a Warlord Trait (Codex). That and the cost of a few generic weapon options (power fists, etc.) have changed.

 

On their utility, they make a great midfield gunline for certain armies like Knights or Renegades and Heretics who may not always have shooty midrange elite troops available.

Why do you think they're great? A squad of Havocs or Chosen with plasma guns + MoS and a better and cheaper Chaos Lord does everything they do, but better.

They're cheaper than Chosen and only 1pt more expensive than Havocs and you can bring one more weapon. When stationary, they reroll 1's without needing a Lord to babysit them, and you can field a 10 man squad (for anti-infantry firepower added to say Combi-Bolters and Heavy Bolter) without worrying about Morale since they can lose a max of 1 model.

 

The two armies I mentioned don't have Regiment/Legion type traits, so you can slot the Fallen right into a Chaos Detachment with them instead of needing a separate Chaos Space Marine detachment.

 

Also, Cypher can be Warlord, even though he doesn't get a trait, which gives those armies a Warlord who can die with a possibility of not giving up Slay.

 

In most CSM armies, they don't have much of a place. In R&H or Renegade Knight-focused armies, they're usable, especially since most of the Covenants for R&H are difficult to use effectively and Renegade Commanders aren't very survivable. Marauders (your nearest equivalent), should be set up somewhere with Sniper Rifles or falling out of Valkyries to shoot something to death at pointblank range, not stiffening a gunline. That's where Fallen are a great option, at least as far as I see it.

 

EDIT: A bit more: Chosen have to drop their Boltgun to get a Melee weapon. Fallen don't. They just get to "take one item" from the Melee Weapon list, so they can rock a special melee weapon and a Bolter or the very cheap, optimized combo of a Bolter and Chainsword.

 

Also, since they're a gunline unit, they'll fit well in a Renegade Chapters CSM army, whose gunline units will lose the benefit of their Legion Trait by standing still. They don't get that trait anyway and get something else beneficial instead, so they can hold the middle while Renegade CSM units go forward.

Just a wee point - the take one item from the mêlée list actually goes at the expense of special weapons.

 

 

Any model may replace its boltgun with a chainsword.

• Up to four Fallen may choose one of the following options:

• Replace bolt pistol with a plasma pistol.

• Replace boltgun with one item from the Combi-weapons or Special Weapons lists.

• Replace bolt pistol and boltgun with two lightning claws.

• Take one item from the Melee Weapons list.

 

• One additional Fallen may replace his boltgun with one item from the Special Weapons or Heavy Weapons lists.

• The Fallen Champion may replace his boltgun and/or bolt pistol with one item from the Champion

Equipment list.

 

I see what you mean, mind! The standing still thing is actually not very good, having used it a lot. The re-rolling 1s when standing still means they should be wielding long-range guns, but they can max take a single heavy weapon, so the have to get plasma guns, which aren't very effective at long range.

 

I see what you mean with the Renegade Chapters though. I still think I would take MoS Havocs, so they could benefit from any HQs in the area. I've been using them with my Alpha Legion, and they've been terrible.

 

Yeah, with Alpha Legion they don't really work. And yes, I know the Melee weapon is at the expense of specials. Taking one heavy weapon and four chainswords has a place in a gunline in case you get charged at a point nearby and have to respond, especially against hordes. That approach works best with small squads that are just an excuse to get 6 guys and a heavy weapon, 3rd ed style.

[UlsanGamer]

This is a minor advantage to using fallen... and if you're okay with "counts as" armies (and have rules for them) then you probably have more options anyway....

 

But if you use the AM codex for your renegades, fallen have the imperium faction word so there's no conflicts there. No need to buy and use something as "counts as" from a space marine codex either.