Which Legion had the most powerful Gloriana-Class?

[DogWelder]

Here's a complete list as of the latest timeline in M42. Though I welcome any cross-era comparisons as well. 

 

-Invincible Reason (Dark Angels Legion), Status: Unknown

 

-Swordstorm (White Scars Legion), Status: Destroyed by Death Guard

 

-Hrafnkel (Space Wolves Legion), Status: Missing/Likely destroyed

 

-Red Tear (Blood Angels Legion), Status: Missing/Likely destroyed

 

-Fist of Iron (Iron Hands Legion) , Status: Missing/Likely destroyed

 

-Macragge's Honour (Ultramarines Legion), Status: Active

 

-Flamewrought (Salamanders Legion), Status: Missing/Likely destroyed

 

-Shadow of the Emperor (Raven Guard Legion), Status: Destroyed by Death Guard

 

-Pride of the Emperor (Emperor's Children Legion), Status: Missing/Likely destroyed

 

-Iron Blood (Iron Warriors Legion), Status: Unknown

 

-Nightfall (Night Lords Legion), Status: Active

 

-Conqueror (World Eaters Legion), Status: Active

 

-Endurance (Death Guard Legion), Status: Active

 

-Photep (Thousand Sons Legion), Status: Active

 

-Vengeful Spirit (Sons of Horus Legion), Status: Active

 

-Fidelitas Lex (Word Bearers Legion), Status: Destroyed by Ultramarines

 

-Lex Talonis (Word Bearers Legion), Status: Captured by Ultramarines

 

-Alpha (Alpha Legion), Status: Unknown

 

-Beta (Alpha Legion), Status: Unknown

 

Personally I believe its a tie between the Macragge's Honour and Vengeful Spirit.

 

The Macragge's Honour is one of the largest among the Glorianas (26km) and has gotten an extensive refit over the shipyards of Mars, the complete overhaul and upgrades overseen by Belisarius Cawl himself, ensuring it has the best ship-board technology the Imperium has to offer along side the more exotic additions Cawl made using his secret stores of Archeotech.

 

The Vengeful Spirit was described as the largest among the Glorianas and has a combat experience of about 10,000 years. It has constantly been upgraded and has been highly blessed by the highest forces of Chaos undivided. It has a sentient AI (Ultio) that vastly improves its capabilities, as shown by the time it easily gutted the Black Templar's Flagship, the Eternal Crusader during the 1st Black Crusade.

Edited January 25, 2018 by DogWelder

[Guest]

Russ took the Hrafnkel, so its in the warp killing traitors. Also a huge unknown grey ship was spotted at Cadia, suspected to be Hrafnkel. Pride of the Emperor I thought was still active as it was spotted in the events of Warzone: Fenris and Cadia.

 

I am not read into ships as much but I remember reading the Hrafnkel was supposed to be one the 4 largest but also one of the most war-purposed ships of the Glorianas. Unlike her sister, she didn't accommodate huge special rooms like the Macgragges Honour room purposed for debating/talking/greeting the Primarchs and Emperor. Or the art halls of the Pride of The Emperor. Vengeful Spirit was probably one of if not the top tier fighting ships.

 

Man the DG are Gloriana killers though.

 

Edit: Pretty sure the blood Ravens have all the other missing Gloriana ships.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Jarl Caldersson

[Kasper_Hawser]

Russ took the Hrafnkel, so its in the warp killing traitors. Also a huge unknown grey ship was spotted at Cadia, suspected to be Hrafnkel. Pride of the Emperor I thought was still active as it was spotted in the events of Warzone: Fenris and Cadia.

 

I am not read into ships as much but I remember reading the Hrafnkel was supposed to be one the 4 largest but also one of the most war-purposed ships of the Glorianas. Unlike her sister, she didn't accommodate huge special rooms like the Macgragges Honour room purposed for debating/talking/greeting the Primarchs and Emperor. Or the art halls of the Pride of The Emperor. Vengeful Spirit was probably one of if not the top tier fighting ships.

 

Man the DG are Gloriana killers though.

 

Only the DG killing the Raven Guard Gloriana counts in my books. Swordstorm was just acting as a huge Distraction Carnifex and trap, therefore wasn't a "kill" as much as a troll.

 

Glorious moment of trolling where the Swordstorm headed straight towards the DG, Mortarion somehow thinks Khan is on board and teleports there, only to be kamikazed by disgraced White Scars (those who had wanted to side with Horus but saw the error of that decision). All of them died with a smile on their face and laughter in their hearts.

 

Edited January 25, 2018 by Kasper_Hawser

[kombatwombat]

The Eternal Crusader is a Gloriana class, and was in service with the Imperial Fists during the Great Crusade and up until the Second Founding. It wasn’t the Fists’ flagship obviously due to the existence of the Phalanx.

 

It was notable more for its Astartes carrying and deployment capacity than ship-to-ship combat though.

Edited January 25, 2018 by kombatwombat

[Kasper_Hawser]

LOL, I didn't even know about the Eternal Crusader until I saw/heard the "If the Emperor had a Podcast" special on the Black Templar where Helbrech mentioned exactly what you said. Except he claimed that it was Dorn's favorite flagship even though everyone knows Phalanx is Dorn's mode of transport.

 

This resulted in Lord Adorable muttering "Phaaaaaaalanx" in disbelief at Helbrecht's statement.

 

In the end though, i think Vengeful Spirit was the most powerful in terms of everything, but especially attack. God knows what the ship went through during the Heresy, and especially AFTER the heresy until 40K.

[Kilofix]

Slight digression but the Word Bearer’s Trisagion and Blessed Lady are even larger Abyss class that are still around at this point in the timeline, right?

[DogWelder]

Slight digression but the Word Bearer’s Trisagion and Blessed Lady are even larger Abyss class that are still around at this point in the timeline, right?

 

Blessed Lady is strongly hinted to be destroyed in a large fleet engagement with an Ultramarines fleet as shown in Nick Kyme's 'Deathfire'.

 

There a Salamanders battle barge went through the corpse of a gigantic Word Bearer ship like 'a winnow through a whale'. Said Word Bearer ship was surrounded by dozens of dead Ultramarine ships as well. As well as the remains of 13th and 17th Legion Astartes that flocked around the graveyard. 

 

 

Also we know that Blessed Lady actually splits off from the main Word Bearer fleet heading to Terra and decides to stay in Ultramar's outer regions to terrorize them. From the 'First Heretic'

[bluntblade]

Blessed Lasy isn't a Gloriana, but an Abyss-class ship.

 

From the fluff, I'd certainly say rhe Vengeful Spirit.

[Marshal Rohr]

Why would they create two more Abyss Class ships only to let Nick Kyme destroy another one before Terra, which was how they tried to fix their original creation.

[Calas Typhon]

I was always under the impression that the terminus est was gloriana, however it seems to be a capital ship.

 

I will be honest I do not enjoy void combat outside of the ZM parts, I don't really know much about ships either.

 

In terms of the most powerful, you would have to take in factors like who the legions were close to, how active the ships were and the crew and how tested they were.

 

- Conquerer was a beast with a highly trained and tested naval crew also equipped with some vicious weaponry. Even working alone it could reap ships and any boarders would be massacred by the very best ship defenders.

 

- The Death Guard were the ultimate ZM force and they were pretty damn masterful in void combat. Unfortunately we don't know much about the DG here other than what we have been told in books and white dwarf. They had some pretty close ties to the mechanicum, and similar to the world eaters they were endlessly at war without rest.

 

They are the only two that I can be sure on other than vengeful spirit which we all know is a beast and the iron blood who would be commanded by Perturabo.

[StruManChu]

Why would they create two more Abyss Class ships only to let Nick Kyme destroy another one before Terra, which was how they tried to fix their original creation.

 

I feel like the rest of the HH authors just kind of have to work about Kyme a bit. IMHO he's the worst of the bunch (including Thorpe!) and I can't believe he's been allowed, or given the opportunity, to make some of the decisions (like a spoilery one in Old Earth relating to the Iron Hands which just seemed like a huge waste ) that he's made in the context of the overall Heresy narrative.

 

Anyway. On topic, I want to say the Vengeful Spirit in the late Heresy, but it just keeps getting boarded. We've had Kell the Vindicare board it, we've had the Knights Errant board it, and we'll have Russ board it at some point too. This is a source of some confusion to me, and I'm slightly annoyed that it's become something of a trope.

 

I'd put the Invincible Reason up there too. Went all through the Thramas Crusade without getting particularly hammered, unlike Nightfall, though that could just be because the Lion is a better void warrior than Curze.

[bluntblade]

The Terminus Est certainly was a capital ship, just not a Gloriana. It's an ancient vessel, pre-dating the Crusade.

 

I don't see how being infiltrated makes a vessel less powerful. There are Crusade and Heresy-era instances of the Vengeful Spirit pulling stuff that no ship of its class should have survived.

Edited January 25, 2018 by bluntblade

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

I feel like the rest of the HH authors just kind of have to work about Kyme a bit. IMHO he's the worst of the bunch (including Thorpe!) and I can't believe he's been allowed, or given the opportunity, to make some of the decisions (like a spoilery one in Old Earth relating to the Iron Hands which just seemed like a huge waste ) that he's made in the context of the overall Heresy narrative.

Eh, he's not the only one I get that from. I'm still amazed they greenlit so many things that have hurt the Heresy story imo. From Horus's fall (bitching about a statue, really??), Fulgrim's Fall ('A Talking Sword, what could go wrong?'), Nemesis (just, all of Nemesis), the stupid mess they've turned the AL into, the general portrayal of the Wolves etc. Kyme doesn't seem to be in a unique position of awfulness, from what I understand (what does he say about the IHs though?).

 

Certainly destroying a big shiny WB ship (which they have a load of anyway, being one of the only Legions to have multiple Glorianas, plus the Abyss etc) isn't really some grievous sin. The series in general suffers from an overdose of Traitor success imo (to the point where they're going to really have to justify well why Horus has to make the final gamble and loses in the first place, 'because the Cavalry's Coming' is starting to ring somewhat hollow, with the Loyalists getting creamed at every turn). So losing another Abyss class doesn't really bother me.

 

More on topic, I'd like to see less of the Glorianas in general, especially in 40k. They're basically the Primarchs of ships, cool idea that are really losing their lustre after too much exposure. Bringing back Macragge's Honour in Gathering Storm was one of so, so many things wrong with that story. Then, if OP's list is accurate most of the Traitor Legion flagships are still working in m41/42? Despite the Scouring, Legion Wars, supply difficulties in the Eye, 10,000 years of war with the Imperium etc.? Really, as much as I hate Abby and the BL (and boy, do I hate them ), Vengeful Spirit should be the only one still in operation by m41. But that would get in the way of Heresy 2.0. so really the question should be, how long before Cawl reveals he's actually perfected the design and rolls out fleets of 'Primaris Glorianas' do go with his new Primaris Marine Chapters ?

[Marshal Loss]

To be frank, this is a pointless question. How exactly do we decide which ship is better - by dint of their fame? Some ships have more information readily available on them than others. None of the Gloriana class were identical, and we don't have enough information on what each Primarch had done to their ship to accurately judge anything - it's like a 'which Primarch was the best fighter' thread if we didn't have any data on who actually beat who. Not to mention the fact that the title of the thread is 'which Legion had the most powerful Gloriana class,' and this is the Horus Heresy forum, yet you are including upgrades made by Cawl 10,000 years after the Heresy in your evaluation, and the Vengeful Spirit's post-Terra years. Keep it to 30k.

 

The answer is = nobody knows, it probably depends on the time and place. Some Legions preferred void warfare more than others, so they might have a slight edge, but we're talking degrees of difference in terms of the guys manning the ships, not 'this Gloriana is better than this Gloriana.'

Edited January 25, 2018 by Marshal Loss

[Mellow]

The Death Guard May have been good at void warfare but that Imperial Fist guy nearly killed a significant chunk of their fleet and their Primarch. Which really should have happened because it’s about time someone ordinary killed a Primarch.

[bluntblade]

You sure you don't mean the Iron Warriors?

[TheRealMcCagh]

Isn't it just the wreckage from the Furious Abyss that the Salamanders fly through? Pollux tells them to tow away all the debris above Macragge when going over how to better fortify Ultramar, which would explain the massive ship graveyard out in space near Macragge.

[rendingon1+]

Marshal Loss, on 25 Jan 2018 - 12:34 PM, said:

 

To be frank, this is a pointless question. How exactly do we decide which ship is better - by dint of their fame? Some ships have more information readily available on them than others. None of the Gloriana class were identical, and we don't have enough information on what each Primarch had done to their ship to accurately judge anything - it's like a 'which Primarch was the best fighter' thread if we didn't have any data on who actually beat who. Not to mention the fact that the title of the thread is 'which Legion had the most powerful Gloriana class,' and this is the Horus Heresy forum, yet you are including upgrades made by Cawl 10,000 years after the Heresy in your evaluation, and the Vengeful Spirit's post-Terra years. Keep it to 30k.

 

The answer is = nobody knows, it probably depends on the time and place. Some Legions preferred void warfare more than others, so they might have a slight edge, but we're talking degrees of difference in terms of the guys manning the ships, not 'this Gloriana is better than this Gloriana.'

 

The answear is here:

Personally I believe its a tie between the Macragge's Honour and Vengeful Spirit.

Ultramarines superior yo. Just like some others Op's threads.

Edited January 25, 2018 by rendingon1+

[Ranwulf]

I give the Swordstorm a boost for being a Gloriana class ship that somehow is as fast as the other ships of the White Scars fleet, and was one of the few loyalist Gloriana that kept fighting the traitor legions for four years until the Khan decided to use it as bait.  

 

Ran

[DogWelder]

Marshal Loss, on 25 Jan 2018 - 12:34 PM, said:

 

To be frank, this is a pointless question. How exactly do we decide which ship is better - by dint of their fame? Some ships have more information readily available on them than others. None of the Gloriana class were identical, and we don't have enough information on what each Primarch had done to their ship to accurately judge anything - it's like a 'which Primarch was the best fighter' thread if we didn't have any data on who actually beat who. Not to mention the fact that the title of the thread is 'which Legion had the most powerful Gloriana class,' and this is the Horus Heresy forum, yet you are including upgrades made by Cawl 10,000 years after the Heresy in your evaluation, and the Vengeful Spirit's post-Terra years. Keep it to 30k.

 

The answer is = nobody knows, it probably depends on the time and place. Some Legions preferred void warfare more than others, so they might have a slight edge, but we're talking degrees of difference in terms of the guys manning the ships, not 'this Gloriana is better than this Gloriana.'

 

The answear is here:

Personally I believe its a tie between the Macragge's Honour and Vengeful Spirit.

Ultramarines superior yo. Just like some others Op's threads.

 

I mean that's just my personal opinion. If others have different ones I'm okay with it and am interested in the reasoning behind it. Which is why I wanted to start this discussion 

[DogWelder]

Isn't it just the wreckage from the Furious Abyss that the Salamanders fly through? Pollux tells them to tow away all the debris above Macragge when going over how to better fortify Ultramar, which would explain the massive ship graveyard out in space near Macragge.

 

Yes that's what I initially thought too. However, the Furious Abyss was destroyed when the small strike team that boarded it destroyed its plasma drives. The team consisted of about a dozen or so Marines from the Space Wolves, World Eaters and Ultramarines.

 

By contrast the wreck in the graveyard had its warp drives detonated by a massive boarding party and there were corpses of hundreds of Ultramarines and Word Bearers frozen in combat on every deck of the wreck. 

[Brother Heinrich]

I thought the Nightfall died in the Thramas Crusade.

[karden00]

Ultramarines.

[Calas Typhon]

The nightfall ended up with shang or the painted count did it Not?

[Aeternus]

The nightfall ended up with shang or the painted count did it Not?

 

Aye it did. One then the other at least :P