Has anyone run plasma inceptors?

[Diagramdude]

Sometimes I like to roll my dice around and simulate a round of attacks against a hypothetical toughness/save target, and three plasma inceptors with a source of reroll 1's seems actually insane?

 

Drop down within 18" and put out 6-18 (12 average) overcharged plasma shots? T7 3+ targets seem to be the dream target, I consistently put out 8+ wounds in my simulated rolls.

 

But mathhammer doesn't hold a candle to actual in game experience IMO, so has anyone had success or failure with plasma inceptors? The 177 points for 3 models is definitely steep, and they badly need a source of reroll 1s.

[Xenith]

Hey there! We had this question pop up a couple of weeks ago - you can check the discussion here 

[Blindhamster]

They did great the couple of times i used them, however, don't expect them to survive long as they very quickly become a priority target and they don't have much staying power, even at T5.

 

All the gravis stuff (inceptors included) really needed to be 3 wounds

[Panzer]

3 wounds would be great. Or 2+ armor. One of those two. Just T5 throws people a bit off guard the first time just like the 2 wound statline on basic troops but it won't help you much once people know about it unfortunately.

That being said Inceptors always become priority targets rather quickly due how much damage they do even with just Bolters and how quickly they can close the gap to the opponents army. ^^

[Diagramdude]

Xenith, thank you for linking that. Great stuff in there. I locked into thinking I'd be dropping them max range out but now im thinking using DoA to tri-lock them into the relative safety of melee is great because they have fly and can thus fall back and still unleash hell on their next turn. Edited January 25, 2018 by Diagramdude

[Morticon]

Ive been finding the Inceptors to be very, very good.  They do, however take solid return fire, and as a result, dont think i could justify their high per model point cost of the plasma :( 

[Panzer]

The one thing that puts me off of Plasma Inceptors is simply the risk of rolling a 1 with 2d3 shots and losing a model with so many shots in one go. As long as I don't have problems with losing Hellblaster to alpha strikes every time in my semi-competetive group I'll just stick to those instead.

[CCE1981]

I have been running 2x 3 man Assault Inceptors and 1x 3 man Plasma unit. The Assault Bolters rarely kill their points back, the Plasmas almost always. Supported I always feel they are are worth i, even if they take fire that is fire not going against other units.

[Kallas]

The one thing that puts me off of Plasma Inceptors is simply the risk of rolling a 1 with 2d3 shots and losing a model with so many shots in one go. As long as I don't have problems with losing Hellblaster to alpha strikes every time in my semi-competetive group I'll just stick to those instead.

You could look at it this way instead:

 

Three Plasma Inceptors (177) are roughly the same cost as five Rapid Fire Hellblasters (165).

 

If five Hellblasters are often alpha struck off the table (or even a couple of them), how much would you value 12pts for the ability to never* get alpha struck?

 

An average of four shots per Inceptor means losing two/four (depending on range to enemies) Hellblasters is the equivalent of a single Inceptor's firepower. If five Hellblasters get killed first turn, those three Inceptors get infinitely greater use of their expensive guns (and they are both reasonably expensive for what they bring: Hellblasters may be cheap-er, but they're still quite expensive per model).

 

A unit of three Inceptors puts out a range of 6-18 shots, or the equivalent firepower of 6-18 (long range)/3-6 (Rapid Fire) Hellblasters. If a unit of five loses just two, then they need to be at Rapid Fire range to equal the minimum volume of fire that the Inceptors bring.

 

I definitely feel you about losing lots of shots to overheating, but that's a risk factor of all Plasma, it's just that Inceptors need to be a little more picky about when they do so. The only thing that makes me cautious about overheating is that you roll for the number of shots after you decide to supercharge, which means they could die when firing minimal shots!

 

 

 

 

 

* Assuming no Auspex Scan-type intervention shots!

[Ushtarador]

I really want to try a force with Captain, Lieutnant, Company Ancient with Standard of Sacrifice and 3 Units of Plasma Inceptors.

 

It allows you to drop on a flank, preferrably into or behind some terrain where you're save from some of the return fire. The output of the units is amazing, the standard makes them a lot more durable, and when they die every model has a 50% chance of shooting back with 2D3 shots.

 

The whole blob clocks in at 800 points, which still leaves a good amount for supporting units and scouts, and provides a very strong but mobile firebase that can't be locked down in melee.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Ushtarador

[MeltaRange]

The one thing that puts me off of Plasma Inceptors is simply the risk of rolling a 1 with 2d3 shots and losing a model with so many shots in one go. As long as I don't have problems with losing Hellblaster to alpha strikes every time in my semi-competetive group I'll just stick to those instead.

 

You do know that you still get the shots off that turn right?  Rolling a 1 kills the guy after you resolve all the hits/wounds. (just making sure)

 

They are extremely hard to keep alive.  While I do think that they are viable in a 5-6 man unit, (check on the anecdotes I typed up in the linked thread) more and more I'm using just a 3 man as an expendable units for the purpose of a surgical kill to an opponent's key unit for 177 points.

I really want to try a force with Captain, Lieutnant, Company Ancient with Standard of Sacrifice and 3 Units of Plasma Inceptors.

 

It allows you to drop on a flank, preferrably into or behind some terrain where you're save from some of the return fire. The output of the units is amazing, the standard makes them a lot more durable, and when they die every model has a 50% chance of shooting back with 2D3 shots.

 

The whole blob clocks in at 800 points, which still leaves a good amount for supporting units and scouts, and provides a very strong but mobile firebase that can't be locked down in melee.

 

I think the Ancient ability says you can fire "ONE" of your weapons.  That means 1d3 shots, not 2d3.

[Ushtarador]

 

 

I think the Ancient ability says you can fire "ONE" of your weapons.  That means 1d3 shots, not 2d3.

 

Aww seems you're right, good catch >.< The 5++ is still really nice though if you can buff a good amount of models :)

[Panzer]

 

The one thing that puts me off of Plasma Inceptors is simply the risk of rolling a 1 with 2d3 shots and losing a model with so many shots in one go. As long as I don't have problems with losing Hellblaster to alpha strikes every time in my semi-competetive group I'll just stick to those instead.

You could look at it this way instead:

 

Three Plasma Inceptors (177) are roughly the same cost as five Rapid Fire Hellblasters (165).

 

If five Hellblasters are often alpha struck off the table (or even a couple of them), how much would you value 12pts for the ability to never* get alpha struck?

 

An average of four shots per Inceptor means losing two/four (depending on range to enemies) Hellblasters is the equivalent of a single Inceptor's firepower. If five Hellblasters get killed first turn, those three Inceptors get infinitely greater use of their expensive guns (and they are both reasonably expensive for what they bring: Hellblasters may be cheap-er, but they're still quite expensive per model).

 

A unit of three Inceptors puts out a range of 6-18 shots, or the equivalent firepower of 6-18 (long range)/3-6 (Rapid Fire) Hellblasters. If a unit of five loses just two, then they need to be at Rapid Fire range to equal the minimum volume of fire that the Inceptors bring.

 

I definitely feel you about losing lots of shots to overheating, but that's a risk factor of all Plasma, it's just that Inceptors need to be a little more picky about when they do so. The only thing that makes me cautious about overheating is that you roll for the number of shots after you decide to supercharge, which means they could die when firing minimal shots!

 

 

 

 

 

* Assuming no Auspex Scan-type intervention shots!

 

Yeah I know those things. Those were the arguments I brought in the other thread.

And no the risk is significantly higher with Inceptors than it is with other Plasma. When you roll a 1 with regular plasma, you lose 1 shot. 2 in Rapid fire range. When you roll a 1 with Inceptors you lose 2d3 shots. So at minimum as many shots as in Rapid fire range of regular plasma and at worst as much as 6 regular plasma shots above Rapid fire range (aka rolling 1 one = rolling 2-6 ones) while having on average a chance two to four times as high per model to roll the 1.

 

So in summary:

Inceptors have a significantly higher risk to roll a 1 per model while losing a lot more shots when rolling a 1.

 

In return they get protection from alpha strikes and are more mobile. However I mentioned that I only stick with Hellblaster as long as they don't get overwhelmed by alpha strikes regularly so it's not like I'm saying that Inceptor are clearly inferior obviously.

 

 

 

The one thing that puts me off of Plasma Inceptors is simply the risk of rolling a 1 with 2d3 shots and losing a model with so many shots in one go. As long as I don't have problems with losing Hellblaster to alpha strikes every time in my semi-competetive group I'll just stick to those instead.

 

You do know that you still get the shots off that turn right?  Rolling a 1 kills the guy after you resolve all the hits/wounds. (just making sure)

 

They are extremely hard to keep alive.  While I do think that they are viable in a 5-6 man unit, (check on the anecdotes I typed up in the linked thread) more and more I'm using just a 3 man as an expendable units for the purpose of a surgical kill to an opponent's key unit for 177 points.

 

I do and it doesn't change anything about what I said.

 

 

I really want to try a force with Captain, Lieutnant, Company Ancient with Standard of Sacrifice and 3 Units of Plasma Inceptors.

 

It allows you to drop on a flank, preferrably into or behind some terrain where you're save from some of the return fire. The output of the units is amazing, the standard makes them a lot more durable, and when they die every model has a 50% chance of shooting back with 2D3 shots.

 

The whole blob clocks in at 800 points, which still leaves a good amount for supporting units and scouts, and provides a very strong but mobile firebase that can't be locked down in melee.

MeltaRange is right, only 1d3 extra shots. Also that's only a thing for a mixed BA army but unfortunately not really for pure Primaris armies since those are lacking means to deep strike HQs.

Edited January 25, 2018 by sfPanzer

[MeltaRange]

 

 

 

The one thing that puts me off of Plasma Inceptors is simply the risk of rolling a 1 with 2d3 shots and losing a model with so many shots in one go. As long as I don't have problems with losing Hellblaster to alpha strikes every time in my semi-competetive group I'll just stick to those instead.

 

You do know that you still get the shots off that turn right?  Rolling a 1 kills the guy after you resolve all the hits/wounds. (just making sure)

 

They are extremely hard to keep alive.  While I do think that they are viable in a 5-6 man unit, (check on the anecdotes I typed up in the linked thread) more and more I'm using just a 3 man as an expendable units for the purpose of a surgical kill to an opponent's key unit for 177 points.

 

I do and it doesn't change anything about what I said.

 

 

Well, in the context of using them as an alpha strike unit, it does.  If you lost the models rolling 1 to hit before the shots were resolved, it would be WAY worse as an alpha strike unit. (without captain support)

[Panzer]

I don't want to use them JUST as alpha strike unit tho. I despite throwaway units. Especially 200p expensive ones.

[Ornithologist]

I use a 3 man unit of each type. Basically, my army is a 50/50% of fire support and assault units (all could be used as a suicide distraction carnifex depending on what is on the other side of the board). 

 

1 unit of each do really well next together. 

[Karhedron]

I really want to try a force with Captain, Lieutnant, Company Ancient with Standard of Sacrifice and 3 Units of Plasma Inceptors.

I would probably replace the Lt with a Sanguinary Novitiate instead. You only need revive 2 wounds worth to make his points back, after that you are into profit.

 

I don't want to use them JUST as alpha strike unit tho. I despite throwaway units. Especially 200p expensive ones.

I think if you run a strong drop force like the one above, you could probably crush your opponent's flank which would significantly reduce the pain they would face in the next turn. Then they can simply start rolling up your opponent's line.

 

Yes they are glass cannons to some extent but that does not mean they are disposable. Achieve local superiority to minimise retaliation and then move on.

Edited January 26, 2018 by Karhedronuk

[superwill]

I spoke at greater length in my own "reflections" post, but I've run plasma inceptors in probably 15 games now since the codex release.

 

They are ridiculously good. Everything people have said is fair e.g. how easily they are killed in return etc, but they are such a perfect weapon it doesn't really matter. They allow you to drop where you want and delete their points cost (or usually more) in enemies. Being able to split fire up to 12 different ways is icing on the cake.

 

As for the risk of supercharging, I would never run them without a cpt, and really as long as you take one the risk is acceptable. 1/36 dice will be a 1 re-rolled to a 1, and if each guy is rolling four shots average then there's a 1/9 chance he'll overheat. Shoot all six and you'll probably lose one, but it's never really a problem.

 

There's no other way to put it, I'd say they're the best bang-for-buck unit available to SM. But I'm a diehard alpha-striker, so i generally tend to rate a unit's value off their ability to go for the throat early, and I'm generally less concerned about durability. Other people's playstyle might not suit them as much.

 

But I say, if you can wipe 50% of your opponent's force before they get to retaliate (regardless of who rolled first turn), the game's won before they even get to shoot back.

[MeltaRange]

I don't want to use them JUST as alpha strike unit tho. I despite throwaway units. Especially 200p expensive ones.

 

Well to be fair, it's among the best alpha strike units in the entire game.  There isn't much that can unload that kind of firepower - especially with a Terminator/Jump Captain, the latter of which is in practically every BA army out there these days - at that price point.

 

Positioning is key.  This can mean several different things, depending on the game.

1. They are compact enough (3 40mm bases) deep striking INFANTRY to fit on top of many buildings for easy, instant cover.  As such, they are actually harder to wound than a typical tank (T7, 3+ save) with St4 small arms fire.

2. Their weapons are assault 18" which allows for the maximum number of shots even when deploying outside Auspex Scan (and similar abilities) range, or some weapons rapid fire range.

3. Because of "Upon Wings of Fire" they are able to pull an alpha strike potentially multiple times a game, with the first alpha strike focused on eliminating a relatively unsupported element of an opponent's army (rather than simply strike them right into the heart in a "throwaway" manner) so as to minimize return fire before popping the stratagem to re-position anywhere on the board.

4. Not a strategy reliable enough to build an army around, but it is possible to use Decent of Angels on this unit to tie up units in combat using the "three points" method (described in other threads) and prevent the unit from falling back so the Inceptors are not exposed to return fire.  Even better if combo'ed with a Jump Captain w/ Relic Jump Pack to prevent Overwatch.

5. The Psychological factor of having a "trump card" to many things in reserve.  Forces certain deployments, etc.

 

Taken in aggregate, Inceptors - particularly BA Inceptors - are not necessarily throw away alpha strike units in the same way you might use a Melta-cide squad in a Drop Pod.  They are flexible to be that though, if required.

 

Last game I played - against Guard - 

 

 

2000pt List:

 

 

Sang Priest (warlord)

 

Captain w/ Relic Jump Pack, Thunder Hammer

 

Libby Dread

 

Primaris Lt

 

5 Scouts

 

5 Scouts

 

5 Intercessors

 

5 Intercessors

 

5 Intercessors

 

5 Intercessors

 

Terminator Ancient w/ Relic Banner

 

5 Terminators

 

4 Sang Guard

 

5 Death Company

 

3 Plasma Inceptors

 

Land Raider Prometheus

 

 

 

 

I got second turn and had my Warlord's Landraider obliterated Turn 1.  In my turn, I dropped the Terminators right down into the front - who along with the Scouts, Intercessors, and Death Company went to work on the screening units - while the Inceptors hit a Leman Russ on the flank and were able to tri-lock with the help of DoA so they couldn't be shot at by the Basilisks or Wyverns. Next turn they flew out of combat to a position that allowed them to be in cover against Pask's Punisher tank (for a sweet 2+ save) and still be in range of a Basilisk which died horribly.  They ended up dying anyway and I ended up losing the game, but the point remains.

[BaldrickRSA]

If you are worried about Inceptors, and having them die, why not pack 5 x Hellblasters in a Repulsar, and do a plasma drive-by. That is, move Repulsar, disembark and rapid fire 10x plasma love, backed up by Repulsar firepower. Even boost the hellblaster squad to ten, or add characters and or banners. At ten men, that’s twenty wounds, twenty rapid fire shots, and a Repulsar for backup. Opponents target priority will be Repulsar? 10x Hellbasters with twenty wounds? Or two squads of 15x Death company jump pack squads arriving via DOA with 3x thunder hammers each , and Lemartes?

 

I find the Hellblasters in a Repulsar works well. And twenty wounds go a long way. Plus, next turn it’s move and fire/rapid fire along with Repulsar, or climb back in and zoom off to new location.

 

I am finding Hellblasters lasting longer than Inceptors and doing more damage.

Edited January 30, 2018 by BaldrickRSA

[Blindhamster]

You have to disembark BEFORE the repulsor moves.

 

Hellblasters in a repulsor is a sorry waste of at least a turns shooting.

[Ornithologist]

I normally put flame aggressors in my repulsor to get them close enough to squish things, but I build my list with a small 5 man unit of hellblasters to be a distracting objective sitter. My list could work out with either or none in the repulsor depending on whats on the table. 

[Pendent]

You have to disembark BEFORE the repulsor moves.

 

Hellblasters in a repulsor is a sorry waste of at least a turns shooting.

 

There's value in making sure they stay alive to unload as much firepower as possible when it's most important, especially when most people focus fire on them pretty heavily.

[Blindhamster]

If they start in the repulsor, the enemy has one target and stands a chance to also kill some hellblasters when the transport dies.

 

If they don't start in it, they can start in cover and be buffed via a banner and/or apothecary, the target now has two different priority targets.

 

I played with them in the repulsor every game at the start and honestly can say they have been far more effective since I took them out of it.

But regardless, it's an important thing to remember, you cannot disembark after a transport moves this edition.

[Karhedron]

Hellblasters in a Repulsor need to be moved up to get into RF range unless your enemy obligingly walks straight towards your tank. You can deploy far forward but then you risk being alpha-struck if you do not get first turn.

 

5 Hellblasters in a Repulsor cost nearly 500 points (depending on the Repulsor's armament). A min-squad of plasma Inceptors only costs 177 points. You can get nearly 3 squads of Inceptors for the cost of your Repulsor and Hellblasters. They will kick out an average of 36 shots per turn vs the 10 from the Hellblasters (if they are within 15" of the enemy). Their ability to deploy from reserves means they can threaten anything on the board. Even if your opponent screens, there will be a good chance you can land within 18" of something juicy.

 

I think in a normal Marine army, the choice between Inceptors and Hellblasters is finely balanced. In Blood Angels, our Stratagems combined with the fact that we will often be running a JP Captain anyway tips the balance in favour of the Inceptors in my view. Are Hellblasters in a Repulsor bad? Definitely not. But I feel Inceptors pack a bigger bang for their buck, require fewer points in support units to get value out of and work better with our stratagems and favoured play style.