Unleash the Lions and unit debuffs

[Gentlemanloser]

How does the new AC stratagem, Unleash the Lions, interact with unit based debuffs such as Jinx?

 

Unleash the Lions;

 

 

 

Use this Stratagem at the start of your Movement Phase.  Select a unit of Allarus Custodians from your army on the battlefield.  That unit is immediately split into separate units, each containing a single model.

 

For example we have a unit of 10 Allarus Custodians on board, and in the enemy turn they are subject to Jinx to lower their invulnerable save.  In our next turn we use Unleash the Lions to split them into 10 single mini units.

 

Do each still have Jinx?  Just one, a nominated 'survivor' of the original squad?  None of them?

[Jolemai]

Each would have Jinx unless you have met the criteria to cancel it on one or both units.

[Kastor Krieg]

Yes, they all do. Think of it as if you were allowed to combat squad Marines during the game. You get a Nurgly -1 T debuff on a unit in the enemy psyker turn. On yours, you split them into two - both still are debuffed, nothing removed the effect. Any new single unit debuffs will target only one of the new units though.

[Gentlemanloser]

The counter point is that the 'unit' that was successfully jinxed no longer exists.  Why should it move onto 10 brand new units for free?

 

I'm not sure if these types of interactions are covered in the core rules.  Probably something for a FAQ.

[Rogue]

But the 10 custodes still exist. 10 guys standing together were jinxed. Now they’re the same 10 guys, just standing apart.

 

What if two of them had been killed already, and then they split? Would you argue that the unit that lost two men no longer existed, so why should those deaths be inflicted on ten brand new units?

[Gentlemanloser]

No. Casualties don't change a unit from being a unit.

 

But splitting into discrete, new units, of totally new sizes.

 

Does.

 

Unless you want to claim those single new units aren't actually new units?

[Mr. Shine]

RAW? There's nothing telling us Jinx or other unit debuffs carry over if the unit is split. For Jinx you would no longer be targeting "that unit" (that was Jinxed) if targeting one of the newly split units subsequent to it being cast.

 

Common sense suggests at face value nothing supports it as an explicit way to drop unit debuffs, so HIWPI would be that the newly split units retain any debuffs that were applied to the original unit.

[Kastor Krieg]

For me it sounds like a WAAC argument. Nothing removed the Jinx from any of those models, regardless of current unit composition. Nothing anywhere says that when a unit splits into several units the original buffs/debuffs disappear.

If nothing says something happens, it doesn't happen. It's a permissive ruleset and you do not have a permission to consider the debuff removed from any of the models.

[Mr. Shine]

For me it sounds like a WAAC argument. Nothing removed the Jinx from any of those models, regardless of current unit composition. Nothing anywhere says that when a unit splits into several units the original buffs/debuffs disappear.

 

If nothing says something happens, it doesn't happen. It's a permissive ruleset and you do not have a permission to consider the debuff removed from any of the models.

It's fairly straightforward in terms of RAW. Jinx is never applied to the models as such; it tells us that the opponent "must subtract 1 from all saving throws made for that unit".

 

But I agree, from a common sense/decency point of view it's clear that the models in the unit are affected, and it should reasonably carry over in practice. Units of course don't make saving throws, after all, so intent is crystal clear.

[Gentlemanloser]

Krieg, which single unit did the Jinx cast Jinx?

 

Or has Jinx been allowed to now be cast on up to 10 units with a single cast, instead of the 1 it is allowed to effect?

 

As above, I simply don't think the rules cover this situation, and need to be expanded.

[Kastor Krieg]

You're twisting this to match your own interpretation and that's why it smells of WAAC. It was cast on a unit of 10. That unit LATER becomes 10 units of 1 which NEVER HAD THE JINX REMOVED AT ANY STEP. Ergo, they are still jinxed until it runs out.

It's never being cast on 10 units of 1 in the first place. Stop trying to be a slippery eel and show me the rule that removes the debuff from the units. There's none, and it's not a problem with the rules, it's a problem with YOU thinking there should be a debuff removal for whatever madeup reason.

Here's another example - let's say you have 10 marines. You splash them with Yellow Tyranid Bile that lasts 1 round on their armour, making them easier targets for Tyranid bioforms due to the pheromones or whatever.

This unit decides to combat into two squads. Why should one of those squads suddenly not be yellow all over? Is there an in-setting reason for a rule like that? 

If 10 custodes are barfed all over by the same Tyranid and split into 10 units of 1, are they suddenly 9 clean guys and one yellow barfed one? No.

You ask for a logic that has zero ground in-setting and zero ground in-system (mechanically) and yet you still press on that it's an issue with the ruleset? That's a keyboard-chair interface issue, I'm afraid.

TL;DR - you demand a game mechanic that gives you an additional advantage because of the advantage (unit split) you're already permitted. That's a straight up WAAC rules lawyering argument if I've ever seen one. Ugly.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm not an Eldar player...  I'm not twisting the discussion into anything.

 

Our Eldar player asked the group this question, and I'm getting feedback from both sides.

 

Jinx effects *1* unit.

 

Nothing in game gives it permission to effect 10 units instead.

 

Which is why I've continued to say the rules *do not cover* this situation.

 

I don't want it ruled personally.  I want the RAW to adequately cover this.  And instances like your Combat Squad example above.

 

Edit: What's ugly is your assumption of personal bias behind a rules question.

[Kastor Krieg]

Jinx effects *1* unit.

Nothing in game gives it permission to effect 10 units instead.

Which is why I've continued to say the rules *do not cover* this situation.

You're simply wrong and misunderstand the way and the MOMENT in which debuffs affect units and models.

 

Jinx is CAST at one unit. The unit is clearly defined by the rules as "made up of one or more models". In this case, those are 10 Custodes models. Once the UNIT is affected by Jinx, from that point onwards EACH MODEL IN THE UNIT is debuffed. Jinx rules describe "target 1 unit" as the BEGINNING of the process, when the effect is cast, not the requirements for it to LAST.

 

Nothing in the game says anything else happens should the unit suddenly split into threes or ones. Each model was previously affected already, by virtue of having been in the original unit that was targeted by Jinx. Jinx doesn't TARGET the unit anymore in the Custodes player's turn, it only LASTS until the caster player's next Psychic phase or whatever is stipulated in the power description text.

 

TL;DR - you're mixing up TARGETTING the unit, affecting the unit / models and LASTING "until x happens" on each of the models. Basic concepts that need not to be confused with each other.

 

Another example of the same logic would be the Apothecary or the Necron protocols - a model is returned to the table, it was not a part of the unit (it was dead, off the table) anymore. Is that one model in the unit not debuffed all of a sudden while the rest are?

 

Splitting the unit into several models is a novel mechanic, yes. But it only does what it says - splits the unit into several smaller ones. If it affected buffs and debuffs, it would've said it did. It doesn't say it does, ergo it DOESN'T.

 

Claiming it does or it "has to, it's an oversight" is wishful thinking and a WAAC argument whether you make it for yourself or "for a friend". 

[Gentlemanloser]

No, I'm not.

 

Jinx is cast at, and effects only one unit.  All the models in *that* unit.

 

Where in the rules is it allowed to effect more than one unit?

 

When the unit splits it cannot remain *that* unit that was Jinxed.  There are now 10 new units on the board.

 

There's nothing that permits Jinx to effect more than one unit, because the rules do not cover this. 

 

This, and similar interactions require clarification from GW.  Nothing to do with WAAC.  And please stop continuing to imply personal bias, even If it's only with "quotation marks".

 

Edit: The Apothecary and Necron examples aren't the same.  The "unit" is quite clearly still on the board, it's numbers fluctuate.  Like losing a unit as a casualty doesn't stop that unit being that unit.

[Brother Casman]

This is really a question for the FAQ team, at it's core.

 

That said, if I were to encounter this in a game, I expect I would apply Jinx to all of the split-up models. My precedent comes from, of all things, Warhammer Fantasy, wherein units + characters could receive a buff or debuff, and when the character left, they would continue to have the buff or debuff, that was also on the unit.

 

It's quick and easy, and lets you get on with the game.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's one of the reasons I think this has been missed.  With ICs no longer existing and no longer attaching to units, there didn't seem to be a need for rules about buff/debuffs applying to units that split from other units.

[Jolemai]

It's one of the reasons I think this has been missed.  With ICs no longer existing and no longer attaching to units, there didn't seem to be a need for rules about buff/debuffs applying to units that split from other units.

 

I think this only happens with stratagems. Most flavours of Marines can combat squad mid-game, Guard can "blob-up" mid game. In the latter case, what would happen if one Jinxed unit joined with an unaffected unit?

 

Out of interest, has anyone from your group contacted the 40k FB page or sent off an email to the rulefaqs address (assuming that still exists)?

[Gentlemanloser]

I don't use Facebook.  Usually post our questions here for sounding.  This is one question our group kinda shrugged its shoulders and couldn't figure out an answer too.

 

I'll nudge one of them to put it up on FB.

[Kristoff]

This is really a question for the FAQ team, at it's core.

 

That said, if I were to encounter this in a game, I expect I would apply Jinx to all of the split-up models. My precedent comes from, of all things, Warhammer Fantasy, wherein units + characters could receive a buff or debuff, and when the character left, they would continue to have the buff or debuff, that was also on the unit.

 

It's quick and easy, and lets you get on with the game.

 

Agreed that is up to the FAQ team to answer.  Unless the rule that splits them specifically addresses it, there is no way to know if it stays or if it goes.

 

Unfortunately, WHFB has less precedence than 7th Edition in this case because it was gone to Age of Sigmar a year before 8th/Dark Imperium was released.  7th Edition also considered models which left a unit to be under the affect of any debuffs they acquired while joined.

 

It's one of the reasons I think this has been missed.  With ICs no longer existing and no longer attaching to units, there didn't seem to be a need for rules about buff/debuffs applying to units that split from other units.

 

Then, much like how the old IC rule worked, the rule which allows the split should address it, either way.

 

 

It's one of the reasons I think this has been missed.  With ICs no longer existing and no longer attaching to units, there didn't seem to be a need for rules about buff/debuffs applying to units that split from other units.

 

I think this only happens with stratagems. Most flavours of Marines can combat squad mid-game, Guard can "blob-up" mid game. In the latter case, what would happen if one Jinxed unit joined with an unaffected unit?

 

Out of interest, has anyone from your group contacted the 40k FB page or sent off an email to the rulefaqs address (assuming that still exists)?

 

 

Then, either way, the rule should address it.  If not, it is player's choice and a trip to the FAQ submission lines.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I'd definitely say, due to how GW has ruled similar issues in the past, that the effects carry over to the "new" squads. After all, it's not a brand new squad appearing out of a vacuum, but rather a group of new units comprised of the previous unit members, with everything that comes with that. Otherwise we'd be open to silly issues like not being able to put both a heavy and special weapon into the one Tactical Combat Squad, as the option for both in one squad at army selection is only available to units with 10 models, and the Combat Squad has 5, and one model would get a brevet promotion to Sergeant, as a unit of 5 Tactical Marines is 4 Marines and a Sergeant.

 

Still, this is just personal interpretation until we receive a proper response. I wouldn't be upset if someone wants to play the other way around, so long as it's consistent.

[Mr. Shine]

As a matter of consistency, if, when your opponent comes to roll a save for a model in a Jinxed unit, you remind them to subtract one from the roll, necessarily you should accept that if a Jinxed unit is split that each of the models in the new units remain Jinxed.

[Kastor Krieg]

If the rule doesn't address it, then nothing changes. I really can't understand how that comes off as "player decides" to you.

[wildweasel]

Because the rules literally don't address "What happens to effects on a unit if that unit breaks into new units". After all, there's not anything that permits you to transfer the effects of a buff/debuff from one unit to another either. This is an undefined case. 

That said, playing effects as transferring from a parent unit to a child unit makes the most narrative sense and is consistent with how games that do address this kind of case handle it.

[Schlitzaf]

Didn’t we get an FAQ about what happens if a Space Marine Tactical Squad Combat Squaded and they were doomed, with both squads being affected?

 

In any case the combat squad stratagem (different Strategem) says unit splits, thus implying it was a continuation of ‘previous’ unit. And per RAW I’d say as a continuation any lingering affects remain applied

[Eddie Orlock]

Didn’t we get an FAQ about what happens if a Space Marine Tactical Squad Combat Squaded and they were doomed, with both squads being affected?

This shouldn't be a question. It should be a statement backed by a citation.

 

I see nothing about this in the Marine FAQ: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/warhammer_40000_space_marines_en.pdf

 

Nothing in the Craftworld FAQ: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_craftworlds_en-1-1.pdf

 

There are ways to link to specific facebook responses, so if you saw it there and wish to cite it credibly here it's somewhat incumbent upon you to figure that out.

 

If RAW was clear we most likely wouldn't have a 25 post thread in the OR forum.