Defilers?

[micahwc]

Anyone have any luck running Defilers? They don't seem too expensive for what they bring, and they seem like they could  be pretty helpful. I'm thinking of running a brigade and having 2 Defilers with Battle Cannon, Twin Lascannons, and Defiler Scourge, and then a unit of lascannon Havoks for the third slot to make use of Endless Cacophony.

 

Anyone use them and do they work out well?

[Sception]

Their price is alright for the durability, but they just don't have enough attacks given their very limited accuracy, resulting in rather lackluster offense.  Especially at range, where they're also hit with the heavy weapon penalty while moving, and as a mixed offense unit with honestly very little long ranged firepower overall even when maxed out with lascannons thanks to how negligible the battle cannon is these days, you don't have the luxury of just sitting still to avoid the penalty like a predator or forgefiend does, you have to be working to get those claws into play because those are the only weapons it has where the strength, AP, and damage is good enough to be scary even despite having low accuracy and few total attacks.

 

I do run one, for aesthetic value.  I try to keep it cheap with reaper & flail, the lascannons look good, but feel too pricey on a platform with low BS that will likely be taking the move & shoot penalty on top of that.

 

Honestly, in a competitive environment, i'd say leave it at home.  predators or forgeworld dreads will do so much better if you're looking for long range armored fire support.  Do keep checking back, though.  It wouldn't take much to make them good.  Keep the price the same, make the battle cannon an actually good gun (instead of d3 shots, maybe 2d3, or 2d6 against units with 10 or more models?), give the defiler a stable platform rule to move & fire without the heavy weapon penalty due to its many legs, I don't know.  There's a lot of ways it could be better.  GW seems to get that it isn't right at the moment, so they keep lowering the points cost, but I don't think the points cost is the issue.  The model's too big & expensive to be a cheap spam vehicle.

 

Anyway, I think the chances are good that this thing gets better in our next codex, and I think we'll see another vanilla CSM codex within the next two years, so it's not like it'll be bad forever.  And it isn't entirely terrible right now.  Certainly not as bad as it was.  You can play it in a casual context without basically announcing that you've surrendered the game at least.

[elbianc]

Mine always stays até home...

 

I have better things to Shooter with, and cant deliver him to close combat fast enought...

 

Last games i used it was as a fire magnet!

 

But i did had a fun game deep striking him, with the daemon stratagem,Defiler Claws and Defiler Scourge can bem nasty! damn you FAQ!

[intel31337]

I feel like they just need a slight bump in BS/WS to make them worth it. The points drops have got it almost there, but not quite. Other FW  daemon engines have 3+ to hit, so I wouldn't say it is an unfounded idea.

[Azekai]

I feel like they just need a slight bump in BS/WS to make them worth it. The points drops have got it almost there, but not quite. Other FW  daemon engines have 3+ to hit, so I wouldn't say it is an unfounded idea.

This is my take away as well.

 

I have run double defiler lists, but it is just too easy for them to whiff in close combat in 8th (and with their poor BS, you really do want to come to grips with the enemy). Unfortunately, that d6 damage on the claws is often overkill; it makes them only really ideal for battling multi-wound enemies. If the defiler runs into chaff, it may get locked down indefinitely as it can only manage to pulp a couple of mooks at a time. Even with the daemon engine strategem, they just aren't quite worth it.  

[Warpmiss]

I've had good results keeping mine protecting objectives as long as I've also had other units on the table covering it (marines/cultists) that can take enemy fire in its place. When it's left alone it instantly becomes a fire-magnet and eventually falls down, though. I usually try to add mine to my lists because it's a cool model and looks imposing on the gaming table. :P

[Trevak Dal]

I think I'm going to chop mine up and add it to the Driago diorama. The centerpiece is going to be Big D doing to Mortarion what Frank Castle did to Agent Orange in the Netflix show, inside the ripped out remains of a Bloodthirster and the defiler.

 

Rip and Tear and all that.

[Mekhitar]

I adore defilers.  The model is so iconic, eye-catching, and fun, I used to do contortions to fit one in my list in 7th just because.  One of the things I am happiest about with 8th is the rebalancing of the defiler/helbrute question.  I almost always run a defiler in my lists now (at 2k), and I will frequently run two.  Let's see if I can lay out all the things I like.

 

I start off by pretending the defiler doesn't have any guns.  No, really - with their crappy 4+ BS, making that a 5+ (!) when they move, shooting is an afterthought on these guys that you pop off during the phase but don't expect it to do anything.  Don't spend command points on demonforge for it.  The autocannon (cheapest option - I run these guys as cheap as they come) mostly doesn't stick, and battle cannons are just bad, especially on a low ballistic skill.  They're okay if you are double firing a leman russ tank commander, but if I could drop the gun and the points from my defiler I would.  It maybe, maybe makes 1 wound roll stick over the course of a game.

What makes defilers shine is they are can openers.  The AP and Damage stats on their close combat weapons are second to none for our codex.  So, give up any thought of gunboating them.  Do not dump all those points into a twin heavy flamer.  Grab the flail instead - for one it's much cheaper, and for two, it turns the defiler into a tank/character mulching machine.

4 attacks with the claws at str 16 ap-3, d6 damage, will wound everything you'll see on the table (shy of a warhound) on 2s, with the AP and damage of a lascannon.  Close combat vs vehicles is hard for many units due to a low damage characteristic and the high wound count of an enemy vehicle.  Add in things like half damage or -1 to damage (here is looking at you, wave serpents) and even a demon prince can struggle.
3 attacks with the flail at str 12 ap-2 flat 3 damage is NOT to be underestimated!  That flail is a helbrute fist.  Even the -1 dmg enemies (or half damage - looking at Cowboy and Abbadon for this one) are eating multiple wounds.  Two hits will kill any unnamed infantry character, where a 2d demon prince's claws needs 3.  That's significant.  And it will mulch through tanks, wounding the light stuff (T6) on twos with the flail, and everything else on 3s.

Get this monster into close combat as soon as possible, and then pop daemonforge once you're there.

On the subject of monsters: the defiler is tanky.  14 wounds (!) with a 3+/5++ that regenerates a wound every turn.  If the enemy doesn't pour a lot of firepower at it, it stays... and stays... and stays.  Now, it doesn't always win (frequently mine gets its lower third of wounds popped off by enemy psykers, for example) but the sheer amount of delay its giant footprint causes when it consolidates into every enemy unit it can manage is, I admit it, kind of glorious.

Of course, you gotta keep it alive, and you have to make it the threat.  Remember, the Defiler's job is not to win the battle for you.  It's a great distraction.  With 7 attacks that hurt in CC, it's a threat to the enemy only if you shove it down their face.  This is where pretending it doesn't have guns and going all out CC helps.  On turn 1 I move and advance my defiler.  Then my winged DP drops warptime on it and it moves again.  During the shooting phase, it pops smoke.  Now it's large, spiky, threatening, right in front of the enemy lines, and with a 3+/5++ and -1 to hit.  For extra fun, add weaver of fates for the 4++, and don't be afraid to drop a command point to reroll a failed lascannon save.

The Defiler also assists your tank units by distracting enemy fire onto it, because you have thrown it down their throats.  Your rhinos can cart around your zerkers unmolested; your preds will live to unleash their las hell; your helbrutes, advancing in its shadow, often barely get touched.  Something about 8th, at least that I have noticed in our group of ~7 local players, is folks still radically underestimate the amount of anti-tank required to polish off a vehicle.  This goes especially for the defiler.  And it's cheaper than it has ever been.

I promise, I'll finish writing my lovefest with this spiky walker :p

If you really want it to be 'effective', a dark apostle (or someone like Abbadon ofc) will turn its CC threat into real punch without spending the CPs on daemonforge.  I like running 1 apostle between 2 crabs, if you have the points for the 'lesser' HQs. (Non DP, lord, or sorc.)

As mentioned above, of course, defilers aren't horde killers - and don't try to make them do that work.  They want to come to grips with the tough nuts of the enemy army, namely, terminators, characters, and vehicles.

[Panzer]

I guess against more elite armies without a ton of Lascannons or Melta or equivalents a melee Defiler does work good, but 7 heavy hitting attacks hitting only on 4s on a huge model without any noteable defense against anti-tank weaponry isn't going to work against any more serious list with means to take down tanks/monsters and lots of chaff to tie things up I fear.

[Goreshed]

Mekhitar has got it. We aren't a shooting army. We aren't Marines. We are chaos and we do it best when we are eating your faces and destroying galaxy wide races.

[Panzer]

Not a shooting army? 

looks at Plasma Terminators, Noise Marines, Rubric Marines and all the basic stuff loyalists have like Predators and Havocs

 

Maybe less of a shooting army and a slightly more choppy army but it's not like CSM are a Daemon army without shooting or consist of only Berzerker and Possessed. 

[Goreshed]

By that I mean we are not Tau/IG gun line that sort of thing. It isn't our main strength. Can we do shooting? Sure, we've got some stratagems for that purpose (and to be honest if you play mono, cacophony doesn't factor in if you play fluffy) hell we have units that can do it, but our range is mid to short. Are we hamstrung as daemons? No, but to not focus on that mid range means we aren't using the army to the fullest.

[Commissar K.]

Not a shooting army?

looks at Plasma Terminators, Noise Marines, Rubric Marines and all the basic stuff loyalists have like Predators and Havocs

 

Maybe less of a shooting army and a slightly more choppy army but it's not like CSM are a Daemon army without shooting or consist of only Berzerker and Possessed.

Hehe well my KDK list is that.

 

But the fact of the matter is indeed that CSM + Daemons do pretty much all.

 

The Defiler has this aim too but is more expensive as the sum of its parts in quite some examples.

[Mekhitar]

The best anti-tank I’ve run defiler against is an Azrael-focused DA list. I think there were only about 8 lascannons and plenty of DA plasma spam. It held up well enough, but while I wouldn’t advocate taking defilers to a tournament by any means, I have found them great in everyday games.

 

I admit I get a lot of opportunities to play 8th with friends (often more than once a week) so we aren’t usually lining up all our hard hitters every game, and my meta is very marine/Guard.

 

Edited to add:

Chaos marines aren’t as choppy as they once were. I used to love charging my pistol/sword slaanesh marines into the face of the enemy every game, and that attempt just straight up falls apart in 8th. This saddened me greatly - and the ability to take a big, crunchy close combat chomper like the defiler and actually get great use out of him lifts my spirits.

 

Edit 2:

Hilariously, the defiler’s WS does not drop as it takes damage. Instead, the BS does. This suits the choppy version very well, and makes a cc defiler just as deadly wth 1w as it was with 14.

[Panzer]

Yeah his WS stays at 4+...it's already bad enough that his movement and amount of attacks drops I guess. ^^

[Ishagu]

By that I mean we are not Tau/IG gun line that sort of thing. It isn't our main strength. Can we do shooting? Sure, we've got some stratagems for that purpose (and to be honest if you play mono, cacophony doesn't factor in if you play fluffy) hell we have units that can do it, but our range is mid to short. Are we hamstrung as daemons? No, but to not focus on that mid range means we aren't using the army to the fullest.

I think Chaos are currently a better shooting army than Tau lol. Exception being commander spam.

[Panzer]

 

By that I mean we are not Tau/IG gun line that sort of thing. It isn't our main strength. Can we do shooting? Sure, we've got some stratagems for that purpose (and to be honest if you play mono, cacophony doesn't factor in if you play fluffy) hell we have units that can do it, but our range is mid to short. Are we hamstrung as daemons? No, but to not focus on that mid range means we aren't using the army to the fullest.

I think Chaos are currently a better shooting army than Tau lol. Exception being commander spam.

 

Being a T'au player I'd agree on that. :'(

[Trevak Dal]

Indeed :(

[Daionosis]

Mekhitar has got it. We aren't a shooting army. We aren't Marines. We are chaos and we do it best when we are eating your faces and destroying galaxy wide races.

 

Agreed and agreed. One thing I wanted to add, the good thing about defiler as compared to other daemon engines, is it gives you options. I used to run three maulerfiends, they must get close to the enemy to do anything, even when facing a assault enemy. With crabs you can stay still, let them come to you, shoot a bit (not too effective but better than no shooting) and charge them your second turn.

[Panzer]

You really want to use CP to shoot something underwhelming as a battlecannon at BS4+? I know a ton of things I'd rather use my CP on instead lol

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Wow, dismissive much?

 

Yes, Ensign, you *can* use that stratagem on the Defiler. As Sfpanzer points out rather rudely, however, it's not a particularly potent use of resources. *If* you geared the Defiler for shooting it might be worth it, but its still a questionable basket for all those eggs.

[Panzer]

Wow, dismissive much?

 

Yes, Ensign, you *can* use that stratagem on the Defiler. As Sfpanzer points out rather rudely, however, it's not a particularly potent use of resources. *If* you geared the Defiler for shooting it might be worth it, but its still a questionable basket for all those eggs.

Apologies, it wasn't meant to be rude at all. Not used to the whole sugar coating thing you guys in the US have going on. 

[walpurgisnacht]

Tone is difficult to judge in text. What might sound playful in the writer's head may read as spiteful.

 

Please, carry on the discussion about defilers! I have one that has not seen play and would like to know where it fits (or doesn't) in my lists.

[Goreshed]

A Maulerfiend is pure close combat goodness.

 

A Forgefiend is the exact opposite.

 

The Defiler does both and because it does both it isn't the greatest at either but it gives you tactical options. Have an enemy hell bent on coming at you? Shoot the snot out of it and then charge it on your turn. Have to charge across the map to get at your enemies? Mind as well shoot them while you are running at them to boot. It's about creating threat. So what it hits on high dice, or worse, it is still potential damage on a platform that isn't a complete slouch in combat when put up against the right targets.

 

And that's the point. The Defiler isn't a scythe. It's a sledgehammer. Save the mobs for other units, send this bad boy against vehicles/small units with high wounds/toughness. That is where it matters.

[Daionosis]

I'd argue a defiler is better than a maulerfiend in close combat (S16 non degradable!) and only a bit below a forgefiend at shooting (and that's mainly because it moves).