Defilers?

[Panzer]

Yeah but to be fair Maulerfiends and Forgefiends aren't that great either. If it weren't for the model I'd take a Helbrute over them anyday ... and the same goes for Defiler. I'd take one because I think it looks pretty awesome (with some tweaking) and because it's not completely trash.

I'm definitely not one who writes super non-competetive fluffy lists since I like having a chance in games and if possible like to win, but at the same time I'm also not one who writes super min-maxed tournament lists because there are too many awesome units I'd love to play which aren't the best in what they do. So ... I kinda forget what I was trying to say. I should really go to bed. :D

[Mekhitar]

^ I'm with you... I just can't make myself play a list that's too fluffy to have a serious chance at winning. But, between local armies and players, I often find myself winning decisively, so I understand I have the 'freedom' to spend points on the less-than-optimal option and still have a good game, and most of the time, come out on top.

One fun thing this lets me do, though, is find some odd and interesting and 'effective' units or strategies on the tabletop that might not be apparent right away. This, plus the above set of circumstances regarding my local meta, means I get a lot of fun out of running defilers, and have found them delightfully useful in 8th!

In fact, I've been enjoying them so much I finally went ahead and converted one into that scorpion thing (much cooler than the crab!) and am planning on converting the other one very soon. When I inherited my chaos army it brought with it the broken bits of three-and-a-half defilers, so you can understand my eagerness to get them to work...

Now, if I had maulerfiends, I'd probably try to run 2 with a defiler and throw them all forward 'just to see'... I have done helbrute / defiler combos many times, but I am always a little unsatisfied, largely just because helbrutes don't stand up to incoming fire the way that defilers do. And, for the life of me, I have not gotten a warpsmith to work with any kind of vehicle parade.

If these guys want support, it's a dark apostle...

[Panzer]

Awesome conversion, I think I'd do something similar with mine!

[Kierdale]

If When I get a Defiler I hope to do a non-standard build too. I wonder if all the legs could be joined end on end to make some kind of rearing-up serpent?

[Scourged]

What is it about the scorpion Defiler (scorpifiler... defilpion...?) conversion that is just so appealing...?

 

[Kythnos]

 

 

 

 

 

And, for the life of me, I have not gotten a warpsmith to work with any kind of vehicle parade.

If these guys want support, it's a dark apostle...

 

 

 

Same problem for me. I cannot figure out what a Warpsmith brings to tha table that is not eclipsed by the aura buffs our other HQ offer. They definitely should have given the Warpsmith a vehicle-specific buff aura.

[Daionosis]

What is it about the scorpion Defiler (scorpifiler... defilpion...?) conversion that is just so appealing...?

 

 

Best conversion I've seen yet! How'd you do it?

[intel31337]

I will say one nice thing about a defiler is that you don't have to worry about getting chump blocked by the stray rhino that charges into it over and over.

Had this happen to my predator the other day, and got charged turn 2. It was pretty much useless the rest of the game. And I thought - "man, for fewer points than a pred, I could have taken a defiler and I wouldn't have had this problem at all." 

[Ishagu]

I just had a look at the Defiler rules. It's not bad, especially if you cast Prescience on it. It's a fire support unit with counter charge potential for really no more points than a Predator. Just give it a havoc launcher, twin Las and a battle cannon.

[Panzer]

I will say one nice thing about a defiler is that you don't have to worry about getting chump blocked by the stray rhino that charges into it over and over.

 

Had this happen to my predator the other day, and got charged turn 2. It was pretty much useless the rest of the game. And I thought - "man, for fewer points than a pred, I could have taken a defiler and I wouldn't have had this problem at all." 

That's why you should always take lots of Cultists or at least normal Chaos Marines and never leave your firebase on its own. :D

[Kythnos]

I just had a look at the Defiler rules. It's not bad, especially if you cast Prescience on it. It's a fire support unit with counter charge potential for really no more points than a Predator. Just give it a havoc launcher, twin Las and a battle cannon.

 

I am not sure I can agree with this assessment. Yes, its weaponry makes the Defiler look like a fire support unit, but its bad ballistic skill and the unreliable battlecannon makes it very dependant on the usage of CP or additional buffs, which - in my opinion - makes the Defiler quite bad at fire support. As others have said already: the Defiler seems to be more of an aggressive CC unit to take out tough targets and shoots a bit here and there on the way.

 

But maybe that is the problem with the Defiler: noone knows what it is supposed to be doing so the rules continue to fail in giving the unit a specific role and making it work.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Problem when you see a "non-optimised" unit and want to give him Stratagem so it turns great : using those CP on an optimised units is always better..

 

Yes you could use daemonforge and daemonic spirit stratagem (the one to cancel the -1 to hit when moving) on a Defiler.. or you could spend those CP for VotLW in a blob of cultist or reroll that Infernal gaze spell roll ; that would be a far more effective use of CP.

 

You can't get a full "close combat" defiler or a full dakka one. I would have love a Defiler with combi-flamers, twin linked heavy flamers, Defilers claws and tendril.. But we cannot.On the contrary we cannot get a Defilers with double twin-linked autocannon and battle canon..

So we stick with an hybride machinae. Why not ? That's what the Defilers is supposed to be. So why no daemonic spirit ??

 

As i love the models and get a rather cool conversion for now i stick with a full flamers Debaser,acting as an anti-alpha or sprinting on enemy gun line. Those points would have been better on other units but i do love the models.

[Ishagu]

But the defiler is cheap. 3 of them with battle cannon and twin las cannon are the same points roughly as a sile Knight Crusader. That's 42 t7 wound

[Panzer]

Knights aren't exactly super good currently either so the comparison is not that much helpful to be fair. ^^

[intel31337]

 

I will say one nice thing about a defiler is that you don't have to worry about getting chump blocked by the stray rhino that charges into it over and over.

 

Had this happen to my predator the other day, and got charged turn 2. It was pretty much useless the rest of the game. And I thought - "man, for fewer points than a pred, I could have taken a defiler and I wouldn't have had this problem at all." 

That's why you should always take lots of Cultists or at least normal Chaos Marines and never leave your firebase on its own.

 

haha, poor movement on my part. 

 

I could take a screening unit, but the point I was making is that the defiler costs less already, and does not need to babysitters. Adding cultists would just add to the cost.

[Panzer]

 

 

I will say one nice thing about a defiler is that you don't have to worry about getting chump blocked by the stray rhino that charges into it over and over.

 

Had this happen to my predator the other day, and got charged turn 2. It was pretty much useless the rest of the game. And I thought - "man, for fewer points than a pred, I could have taken a defiler and I wouldn't have had this problem at all." 

That's why you should always take lots of Cultists or at least normal Chaos Marines and never leave your firebase on its own.

 

haha, poor movement on my part. 

 

I could take a screening unit, but the point I was making is that the defiler costs less already, and does not need to babysitters. Adding cultists would just add to the cost.

 

As I said in another thread, while the Defiler may defend itself against those annoying stray Rhinos, it's still just as helpless against hordes or semi-hordes that try to keep it from shooting. With a maximum of 7 (with the Scourge) attacks hitting at BS4+ it would never be able to shoot again unless it gets help from outside (aka same as the Predator). ;)

[intel31337]

 

As I said in another thread, while the Defiler may defend itself against those annoying stray Rhinos, it's still just as helpless against hordes or semi-hordes that try to keep it from shooting. With a maximum of 7 (with the Scourge) attacks hitting at BS4+ it would never be able to shoot again unless it gets help from outside (aka same as the Predator).

 

 

True. But at least you're paying fewer points for it :P

[Goreshed]

Let's not forget that it is still killing things even if it is bogged down and in this edition that matters a lot. Moral actually matters now. So if they do use chaff that has a lower leadership value, you'll still be taking more models away. Does this mean the defiler will still be in combat? Yeah but you are still whittling down a unit as it is being tied up which is far better than the pred would be doing.

[Panzer]

Better? Definitely. But ultimately still a unit that was supposed to shoot stuff tied up in melee. Realistically it kills only 1-2 models per turn in melee with its 4 WS4+ attacks, so it's rather unlikely it does a lot of damage via morale test unless it's a unit with like LD4 or something which is quite rare. ^^

[Mekhitar]

My experience is that with the proper allocation of bolter fire and a zerker charge, most enemy horde (esp GEQ) don’t live very long.

 

One nice thing about the defiler is with its base size, you can trap vehicles against the edges of the map and prevent them from falling back. (Muahaha)

[Panzer]

My experience is that with the proper allocation of bolter fire and a zerker charge, most enemy horde (esp GEQ) don’t live very long.

 

Yeah but that's the case for Predators as well. Nothing should be much of a problem for Predator either if you support it properly. ^^

[Mekhitar]

The chief difference is - anything can tie up a predator. As a Sisters player I love charging them with seraphim and rhinos, for example - especially rhinos! In fact, I enjoy charging any short vehicle with a rhino (the best is when you can broadside two with one rhino charge), both as sisters and as chaos. The number of ultramarine landraiders I have locked down...

 

Whereas charging a defiler with a rhino is a Bad Idea.

 

The advantage of running a cc defiler is that once the horde is cleared, you are hitting their tanks in cc and they can’t hit you back. Whereas for a pred, you are exchanging long range fire while the hordes clash in the center. It’s just a different unit with a different game plan. Hordes can ruin the day of both if played well, and will affect neither if not played well.

 

That being said, defilers still make crappy fire support. If you want to go long range AT take that pred. (I usually go for 8-10 man havoc squads instead but everyone has their own style.)

[Panzer]

I still think it's an extremely weak argument pro Defiler. Not saying it's none, but it's weak.

 

Also I thought we were talking about a shooty Defiler, not a cc Defiler. Hence the comparison to the Predator.

[Mekhitar]

I still think it's an extremely weak argument pro Defiler. Not saying it's none, but it's weak.

 

Also I thought we were talking about a shooty Defiler, not a cc Defiler. Hence the comparison to the Predator.

Yeah, I realized that 2/3 if th way through and added a paragraph rather than revising everything, so the fault there is mine.

 

The argument is not bad for a cc defiler, but yup, weak for a shooty one. No one is going to charge something with the cc bite of a defiler to keep it from shooting (once they realize how underwhelming the shooting is), unless you have had a lucky turn with those lascannons and did a chunk of surprising damage, or they haven’t played enough 8th to realize how tanky a defiler is in cc. (Unless they are running a primarch into it to 1 shot it or something.)

[intel31337]

the comparison to the predator is made stating it is a cheaper firebase option that does not need chaff to support it from getting charged, giving you a not-insignificant number of points to put elsewhere in your army. Not saying it is the obvious auto-pick, it depends on what your army needs. And I think that is what we want in a balanced game. Choices. 

Of course if either vehicle is charged by a horde, they will not do so well, but a defiler was designed to clear horde units efficiently. With the prevalence of fast units, and deep strike, there are other threats that could get to your back-line fast, and having a fire-base that can fight for itself would work out better. 

 

Is the defiler perfect right now? no. But the last few point reductions definitely helped, and I think it just needs that slight bump to put it in a sweet spot.