Defilers?

[Mekhitar]

I’m actually super curious as to how my typical opponents would handle a shooty defiler. I run the spikeys all the time, so I’m going to have to throw one down just to see what happens next time I play.

[Goreshed]

Let's face it, anything that is unsupported is going to fall on it's face. But this is a new edition. The past editions if you moved, forget about firing, just couldn't do it most of the time. Are they horrible shot's if they moved? Well of course, most everything is nowadays. But the point is you can still throw dice, you can still have a chance of doing -something-. Previously the pred would always win because it was cheaper to field and it would just sit there and shoot. Now as the defiler moves it can still shoot (yeah I get the math is bad but the dice gods don't care about stats, they care about sacrifices) and be getting closer to turn something into paste.

[Panzer]

The main problem is the same as the Landraider has. It tries to do two things at the same time which don't mix well so you always pay too much for whatever you try to do with it. Specialised units are simply more cost efficient. Was always and will always be.

[dakkamasta]

I know this is a fairly old thread but I just had a game against Drukhari and ran 2 Defilers with the full close combat loadout and honestly I was quite happy with them. They are quite cheap with this loadout considering how durable they are and they perform quite well once you stop worrying about making their shooting useful. They are also a great target for Warptime because it gets them in the enemy lines much quicker causing a bit of panic for the opponent.

 

The great thing about the Defiler Scourge is that it makes degradation a lot less punishing. Instead of going from 4/3/2 attacks, you go from 7/6/5. Paired with the non-degrading WS it remains threatening even at one wound.

 

Daemonforge is awesome on them as well. For 1 CP they become incredibly reliable can-openers and can make their points back and then some in one fight phase.

 

Cheeky trick I learned from this game:

 

Since we play with a lot of ruins on our table and since a vast majority of Drukhari units have Fly, it can be difficult getting non-infantry/Fly units into combat since he tends to hop from ruin to ruin to avoid charges. However since the Defiler is not modeled with a base similar to tanks, you measure all distances from anywhere on the hull. That means that you can exploit the Defiler's height and arms (such as the scourge or the autocannon) to get within an inch of an enemy unit that is on the upper level of a ruin. For a unit that does most of its damage in close combat this can be incredibly useful if done right.

[Scourged]

I've found the same in my limited experience. When used as a big scary threat running up the field to punch and whip, it works great. Anything hit in the shooting phase is just a bonus. I personally like it better than the Maulerfiend, thanks to the cheaper price.

 

Sure, it's dead in a couple turns usually. But man oh man can it be am awful disruption before it does. Because while my opponent is saying "I have got to kill that thing," it's at the cost of ignoring a las/missile Helbrute and a daemonforged Forgefiend or any other toys.

 

It ain't the best, I'm sure, but I enjoy being able to put my scorpi-crab beast on the table and not regret it.

[Sonoftherubric21]

I've found the same in my limited experience. When used as a big scary threat running up the field to punch and whip, it works great. Anything hit in the shooting phase is just a bonus. I personally like it better than the Maulerfiend, thanks to the cheaper price.

 

Sure, it's dead in a couple turns usually. But man oh man can it be am awful disruption before it does. Because while my opponent is saying "I have got to kill that thing," it's at the cost of ignoring a las/missile Helbrute and a daemonforged Forgefiend or any other toys.

 

It ain't the best, I'm sure, but I enjoy being able to put my scorpi-crab beast on the table and not regret it.

 

Very much THIS. 

 

Absolutely *love* my defiler.  Its a wrecking ball on the table, get it into melee and it will obliterate almost anything.  Mine has done work for its point cost and its offense is great when combined with Daemonforge (or a Prescience buff) 

 

That 1 command point pays itself back instantly, Although to be fair you don't JUST take a defiler. For example in my standard 2k list for thousand sons I am running 1 tank and 3 daemon engines (or 2 engines, a tank, and a Mutalith).  So often you want LOTS of things to target and kill, the Defiler is one of the scarier options but its point cost isn't prohibitive.  Seems like its a very solid unit all around, though melee is where it needs to be honestly.  If the cannon happens to nail something? more the better! 

[Mekhitar]

If you’re pretty sure the enemy is going to target it.... I’ve used smoke launchers to hilarious effect. Esp if you t1 advanced it.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Yeah, the Defiler is a beast in armies that have tons of synergy with it:

 

Thousand Sons have Prescience, Gaze of Fate, Boon of Change, Temporal Manipulation, etc, plus Flickering Flames, which makes the hits it gets COUNT. In a pinch, its huge base size makes Warpflame Gargoyles an interesting choice.

 

The Las/Havoc Defiler is a favorite over in the TS subforum because of its points efficiency compared to a Predator when both are operating under our suite of buffs (some of which the Pred can't get because it's not a Daemon). Not to mention the fact that we are a table control army that often has to shoot and then maneuver/countercharge to get stuff out of our lines.

 

Any army that mixes Daemons and Marines as a matter of course will have a whole lot to offer the Defiler. Slaanesh Daemons can make it advance and charge with proper positioning or enable it to fight twice. Khorne can give it charge rerolls or extra attacks. Nurgle can heal wounds even faster, give Feculant Gnarlmaw bonuses, etc.

 

Death Guard has some synergies too.

 

So in an army without tons of Daemons, it's OK. In a "Daemonkin" list or a hybrid army like DG or TS, it gets big boosts from stuff you'll be doing anyway.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I’m actually super curious as to how my typical opponents would handle a shooty defiler. I run the spikeys all the time, so I’m going to have to throw one down just to see what happens next time I play.

 

Thousand Sons:

Roll forward, blow it up with 24 inch Smites or drop Scarab Occult into similar range and invest a command point or two. Alternately, tie it up with a Heldrake....or just ignore it. I have Invulns across the board and its rate of fire is too low to really bug me. If it recognizes this and it charges, I can burn it down with Smite.

 

Iron Warriors: Hit it with any spare Lascannons or Missile Launchers until it's no longer a threat. Alternately, just drop a bunch of shells on it from my Renegade Basilisks if it really annoys me.

 

Renegade Knights: Point a Double Battle Cannon Knight at it. Delete (to be fair, that goes for a LOT of units).

 

Anyone else I play: Run at it, hit it with Meltas and/or a charging Contemptor

[Mekhitar]

I think “ignore it” may be the best option of the presented. ;)

 

I got super distracted by my sisters army, and then a follow up EC/slaanesh daemon opportunity (I came into some daemon models and decided to give them a try), and so never actually ran the shooty defiler.

 

I did end up with a (free) mutalith, so now I’m tempted to add it to 2x defilers in a TS spearhead and “see what happens”. They are likely to be the cc variant though.

[Iron_Within]

Decimators are better than almost every other Daemon engine option I think. Main reason I feel is the lack of degrading stats. 

 

I feel that there are many ways there Defilers could be better and more representative. Such as 3+BS (same for the Forgefiend, WS for Maulerfiend).

 

As they stand they are somewhat weak choices. With that preface I view them as a half decent gun platform, with built in backfield defence. Cultist screens melt against determined DS attacks but a Defiler might give pause. A gun platform with Reaper autocannon and Havoc launcher is 166 points (I think) so it's relatively inexpensive. Is it as good as a Predator as a gun platform? Not a chance, but it can punch anything in the face that tries to attack your other more effective shooty elements.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Defilers need daemonic machine spirit (with a 4+ BS) to bee coherent with the fluff and being a reasonable chooce, that and a global rework on all the artilery weapon (vindicator, defilor, astra militarum tank etc...).

Dreadnought are better in every way right now, not to mention some FW stuff. 

[Scourged]

I agree with you both entirely. Defilers fall flat in the shooting phase by a large margin. Even after all my praise earlier I'd never take one to just shoot. I think I've killed all of two models with all the guns in my games... One of which was a lucky combi bolter shot. You'll always be better off taking a Predator or Helbrute or Contemptor or Forgefiend or Decimator... And so on.

 

Which sucks. I'd love it to be a walking artillery beatstick instead. Daemonic machine spirit would be great, improvements to ordinance and artillery even better.

 

Until then I guess it stays a Distractifiler™, which I'm okay with.

[Ishagu]

What about the amazing strategies to re roll all hits and wounds?

[DreamIsCollapsing]

What about the amazing strategies to re roll all hits and wounds?

 

Good stratagem don't save mediocre units, they just amplify the power gap between unit. Daemonforge is better on a forgefiend (not to mention FW daemon stuff). 

 

Well wait.. let's just say your CP is better on another stratagem (CSM got good ones, whose make some decent unit very good, like havok, so why waist them on bad stuff ?). You could eventually make something using Daemon synergy, but i don't see any good one with that units..

 

Chaos need GW to make Defiler/Warp Talon/Chosen great again 

[Mekhitar]

I’ve found chaos to be a pretty cp-starved army. (The battalion cp changes have been a huge help!) I would love to save cp for daemonforge, but I’m using them on votlw and EC constantly... I rarely end up with more than 1 or maybe 2 for daemonforge.

[Panzer]

Chaos does prett well with CP thanks to Cultists actually. You don't even have to use allies (and if you do you can just spam nurglings).

Ask Blood Angels how CP starved they are without taking any allies. ^^

[Mekhitar]

I used to run with 7-9 most games (batt + spearhead or vanguard, sometimes abbadon). I’m much happier running a double battalion these days. I only have 30 cultists, though, so... :/

 

ETA: I refuse to run nurgle because I don’t like the fluff. I know, I know, but if I’m taking a defiler because I like how it looks, it would be silly to feed it cps generates from units I do NOT like... you know?

 

I have a couple of BA friends, and they usually mimic the loadout with scouts. But.... yep. Heh.

[Ishagu]

 

 

What about the amazing strategies to re roll all hits and wounds?

Good stratagem don't save mediocre units, they just amplify the power gap between unit. Daemonforge is better on a forgefiend (not to mention FW daemon stuff).

 

Well wait.. let's just say your CP is better on another stratagem (CSM got good ones, whose make some decent unit very good, like havok, so why waist them on bad stuff ?). You could eventually make something using Daemon synergy, but i don't see any good one with that units..

 

Chaos need GW to make Defiler/Warp Talon/Chosen great again

Actually that Strategem works really well with a Defiler, especially one providing fire support. It basically negates the poor BS/WS

[Plaguecaster]

I'd love to be able to use my Defiler quite regularly as I loved converting one from that big Fantasy orc and Goblin Spider

I may try fielding one in a fun game or something as to be honest I completely forgot about that stratagem that lets them move and shoot with no penalty, just a shame they couldn't get access to the Death Guard legion trai

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

 

What about the amazing strategies to re roll all hits and wounds?

Good stratagem don't save mediocre units, they just amplify the power gap between unit. Daemonforge is better on a forgefiend (not to mention FW daemon stuff).

 

Well wait.. let's just say your CP is better on another stratagem (CSM got good ones, whose make some decent unit very good, like havok, so why waist them on bad stuff ?). You could eventually make something using Daemon synergy, but i don't see any good one with that units..

 

Chaos need GW to make Defiler/Warp Talon/Chosen great again

Actually that Strategem works really well with a Defiler, especially one providing fire support. It basically negates the poor BS/WS

 

 

Statistically a 4+ with re-roll to hit is BETTER then a standard 3+ to hit. 

 

I actually think a fire-support defiler would be pretty decent, given las cannon, a havoc launcher, a combi bolter, and its main cannon. That's ALOT of shots flying out at 4+ re rolling misses. Even when moving the chances of hitting aren't awful when tossing 10+ dice at the targets, 5+ to hit for the big guns and re-rolling misses....not terrible. 

 

However; that does negate the "cheapness" of the model, bringing him to just over 200.... This is why I built mine for melee. a solid 30 points less for incredible melee output, and needs minimal help to be effective. If it happens to die? not a big deal, usually that means I still have a Mutalith and Maulerfiend on the table that the enemy now has to deal with.  (Never take big stuff by itself)

[Panzer]

Or you just take a LasPred or even better LasHavocs/LasCSM with Mark of Slaanesh ...

It's not like the Defiler can't do damage when shooting. It's just that he doesn't do it as well as other units.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

I agree with SfPanzer, for the same one CP, compare the dmg output of a Defiler and a Fulllascanon havok team (with VotLW). 

 

I've built my Defiler with lots of flamers and autogun (a shame we can't have a Claws + tendrils Defilers) to absorb enemy close combat team with his huge "base". That's the best use i found for him. 

[Closet Skeleton]

Warptime a nurgle defiler up the board with miasma of pestilence and use the smoke launchers. Sounds like a potentially okay way to draw fire pressure away from a rhino rush.

[techsoldaten]

While I absolutely love the Defiler model, it's a very hard sell.

 

I am looking closely at the meta right now and revamping my lists for gunlines / beta strikes. The Defiler is right up there with other units I want for wrecking screens. The points / wounds / movement are all great, but I'm stuck on a few points about efficiency and tactics.

 

I have 2 Decimators and love the way they perform. For just over 200 points, you get 4d3 shots with Twin Soulburner Petards that cause an automatic MW with each hit. They're assault weapons that don't take penalties for movement. Slap Warptime on him for a big threat up to 40+ inches anytime during the game. It's just a great mechanic, I can use it for character sniping when I am lucky and no one expects it.

 

The Defiler has nothing like that in terms of shooting. Then again, no one takes a Defiler for shooting. He's there for Close Combat.

 

Siege Claws on a Decimator means 6 S9 AP-3 d3 attacks, which is like carrying close combat lascannons. Defiler Claws and Defiler Scourges are S10+, but why do you need that? S10+ is good for killing things like Land Raiders, Knights, Titans, etc. In other words, things that generally stand at the back of your opponent's army. How often is that Defiler actually going to close in on those units?

 

So the close combat power is nice to have, and (with the additional wounds for around the same cost) the Defiler would seem to be the better unit. But there are drawbacks to using it in the Charge phase.

 

On the one hand, I want every inch of movement I can get, and a degraded Defiler is very slow. Given the fact it's a bullet magnet, I find it hard to count on ever getting 8 inches of movement at all.

 

On the other hand, the Defiler is a nice, big model with a large presence on the board. But that size really does work against it.

 

When I make my Charge move, I want my big models getting stuck in. When they destroy something, I want them ready to close in on the next thing.

 

So charge movement has to give me the option to position the model for getting to the next unit / preventing retreats / etc. That's not really possible with a Defiler, the model takes up as much space as the entire charge. It's going to be sitting in front of the unit I charged, leaving them the option to fall back. That's not good, I want my charges to take away an opponent's choices and put them at a disadvantage.

 

Sure, I could use Bloodletters / Cultists / Daemonettes to encircle the target, except that Defilers are so big it's usually not possible to charge around them.

 

The size of the Defiler would not be an issue if the model was standing in my backfield shooting the battle cannon and shrugging off shots. But that's not how people use Defilers and I could have a Laspred with better weapons for the same cost.

 

So I can't figure out how to make it work, and I think I'm stuck looking at it on my shelves until something changes.