Question: "Explodes" vs. Only in Death Does Duty End

[9x19 Parabellum]

Hello my fellow Sons of Sanguinius!

 

So last night an epic battle centered around my Librarian Dreadnought squaring off against an Avatar of Khaine (AoK)

 

I charged her (after she had finished off a DC Dreadnought). My libby dread had 1 wound left.

 

1-Libby Dread kills AoK.

2-AoK spends 3 CP to "resurrect" and returns to battlefield with 1 wound.

3-AoK kills Libby Dread.

 

Now here's where it gets murky.  What's the order of operation for Explodes vs. the Only in Death Does Duty End stratagem?

 

"Explodes" reads as: "If this model is reduced to 0 Wounds, roll a d6 before removing the model from the battlefield.."

"Only in Death" reads as : "Use this stratagem when a BA Character from your army is slain...."

 

I hastily rolled a d6 first to determine if he would explode (lo and behold, he did).  Which would kill the AoK as well as a couple of my nearby tactical marines.

 

Then I realized I also wanted to "Only in Death" him.  My opponent and I had a short debate about which would trigger first.

 

Both rules (Explodes and OiDDDE) both seem to trigger off the exact same event (being slain*).  Which would actually happen first?  It would have been important because if I needed to make the determination about spending 2 CP's before rolling to explode, I probably would have spent the 2 CPs (since it's only a 1/6 chance to be able to explode and kill the AoK).

 

* My reasoning is that "reduced to 0 wounds" is functionally equivalent to being "Slain".

 

Thoughts?  (and, as always, please show your work :-)

Edited January 26, 2018 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Panzer]

Doesn't Only in Death state that you remove the model after the attacks are made? That indicates to me that it comes first since after it explodes you don't really have a model to remove anymore.

It would also be the most logical one from a fluff point of view I guess.

[Xenith]

This falls under the sequencing guidelines on the same page as the psychic powers in the rules.

 

Your turn, you decide the order it happens. 

[9x19 Parabellum]

Doesn't Only in Death state that you remove the model after the attacks are made? That indicates to me that it comes first since after it explodes you don't really have a model to remove anymore.

It would also be the most logical one from a fluff point of view I guess.

 

Not according to what I'm reading in the BA Codex (which is to say, if there is an errata or the BA data cards say something differently, I'm unaware of it.)

 

It reads exactly as follows:

 

"Use this stratagem when a Blood Angels Character from your army is slain; that model summons the strength for one final attack, and can immediately either shoot as it if were your Shooting phase, or fight as if it were your Fightphase (this Stratagem is not cumulative with Astartes Banner ability - the Stratagem takes precedence)."

This falls under the sequencing guidelines on the same page as the psychic powers in the rules.

 

Your turn, you decide the order it happens. 

 

In that case I would have (albeit, accidentally) played it right, in that I would have gotten to see if he Exploded before I needed to commit the 2 CP for "only in death".

 

Thanks Xenith.

[Ornithologist]

When I read the abilities, it comes across to me that you would have to do the Strat before doing the explode roll. But I have been in a habit of mis-reading rules combinations since 8th began for some reason.

 

So -  Strat - Explode Roll - Explodes

 

..

 

Though the explodes rule says that it happens when they hit zero wounds, not when it is slain.. so maybe its as above my post?

 

Ill have to think on it.

[9x19 Parabellum]

When I read the abilities, it comes across to me that you would have to do the Strat before doing the explode roll. But I have been in a habit of mis-reading rules combinations since 8th began for some reason.

 

So -  Strat - Explode Roll - Explodes

 

..

 

Though the explodes rule says that it happens when they hit zero wounds, not when it is slain.. so maybe its as above my post?

 

Ill have to think on it.

 

SFPanzer had it right from a fluff/logic perspective; it's really hard to fathom how you can muster the strength for one final attack after you already exploded.

 

Then again, when did we ever allow to reality to get in the way of a good fantasy game, eh?  Why can't tactical marines ride in a Repulsor tank? Why do the projectiles of most weapons stop in mid air and fall down after travelilng 120'?

[Morticon]

Defs RAI vs RAW here. 

 

As noted by Xenith, both of these things happen when the model is "slain".  (Technically and VERY lawyery, the roll for explode and damage actually happens before the model is removed).  

Logic and intent suggests that the Dread would actually have to be on the table to make the attacks, however, there is nothing in the rules to contradict the simultaneous timing.

So, you would pick the order. 

Perfect candidate for an FAQ, but, I think with the rules being what they are it's clear as written.  For those struggling with the fluff justification, think of it as the dreadnought knowing the systems are damaged to the point of explosion, and he either gives it his all, or kamikazes himself! 


RB:

"5. Inflict Damage: The damage

inflicted is equal to the Damage

characteristic of the weapon used

in the attack. A model loses one

wound for each point of damage

it suffers. If a model’s wounds

are reduced to 0, it is either slain

or destroyed and removed from

play. If a model loses several

wounds from a single attack and

is destroyed, any excess damage

inflicted by that attack is lost and

has no effect."

EXPLODE:

 

"Explodes: If this model is reduced to 0 wounds, roll

a D6 before removing the model from the battlefield" 

ONLY IN DEATH...

 

"Use this Stratagem when a BLOOD ANGELS CHARACTER

from your army is slain; that model summons the

strength for one final attack, and can immediately either

shoot as if it were your Shooting phase, or fight as if it

were your Fight phase..."

 

RB:

 

"Sequencing

..... you’ll occasionally

find that two or more rules

are to be resolved at the

same time...... When this happens

during the game, the player

whose turn it is chooses the

order."