Stormtalons

[Firepower]

Time for another "is it good?" thread.

 

I wrote off the Talons as overpriced the minute I saw their cost in the Index.  In 7th, they were an ideal way to bring guns to the table for my Templars (which I never got around to painting, sooo yeah).  Now, they seem to cost too much for the amount of shots they bring.  <FLY> is certainly valuable, but is it enough of a bonus to justify that price hike?  The fresh hike to the cost of TLAC certainly didn't help.

 

What armament is the ideal one to take?  I like Skyhammers, but that -1 to hit is a bit rough even with the +1 from Strafing Run.  But, against certain armies that spam flying units, they look ruthless (3 BS 3+ shots with +2 to hit and D3 damage).  Lascannons are nice and all, but there seem to be much better delivery platforms.  Heay Bolters seem like they would round them out as pretty solid horde control.  Typhoons always seem overpriced.  

Edited January 27, 2018 by Firepower

[Tamiel]

I would say that the armament depends on the rest of your army. If you don't have enough lascannons in your army, then I would suggest that. I generally don't like anti-air weapons (like the Skyhammer missiles) because they require too many things to go right for them to pay off. I think having just more lascannons is generally good because it helps against ground vehicles, and since fliers are generally more expensive for how much effective hp they have, the -1 to hit isn't that big of a deal. Having a strong anti-ground-vehicle army will usually translate to a strongish anti-air-vehicle army.

 

The typhoon missiles are also not that interesting to me. They do anti-vehicle jobs worse than the lascannons, and they do anti-horde jobs worse (less cost efficiently) than heavy bolters. Yes, they have the flexibility, but with the mobility that the stormtalon has, you will generally be able to get optimal targets for whatever gun you brought. I think missile launchers are better for less mobile platforms, because they do not have the freedom to shoot at a specific type of enemy. With the stormtalon, you really don't need that flexibility. 

 

So, I think the only two choices are the heavy bolters and the lascannons, depending whether you have anti-vehicle options covered or not. In a 2000 point game, depending on your meta, you may need at least 8 lascannon shots in your army. In gaming stores where there's less terrain, and more shooty armies, you may possibly even need more. This may sound like a lot, but remember that almost anything that can carry lascannons (mainly predators and devastators) are top priority targets that get decimated in turn one. You sort of have to assume that one of your lascannon platforms (be it dev squad, predator, or stormtalon) might not make it past turn one. So, my belief is that having more lascannons is almost always good unless your meta has a lot of line of sight blocking terrain, a lot of horde-heavy armies, or both.

I'm willing to admit that most of what I know is based on personal experience, but I have almost never been disappointed to bring additional lascannons. However, I have lost games due to not having enough of them. So in the end, I would lean heavily towards the lascannon option for the stormtalon.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Tamiel

[Tamiel]

On another note, what's so great about the stormtalon is that you can focus fire targets with your whole army better. The storm talon is not just fast and durable (well, more durable than a landspeeder), but it also has pretty long ranged weapons. So, if you're focus firing an enemy target, the stormtalon will almost always contribute to taking that target down.

 

If it's an infantry squad that you need to focus fire, you can easily get the 24" assault cannons within range, and thanks to your 48" lascannons and flyer advantages, your lascannons can still shoot at some tank that is far away.

 

Likewise, if you want to focus fire an enemy vehicle, you can easily shoot at it with your lascannons while staying within 24" inches of some enemy infantry squad.


What I'm about to say next is mostly theory, so take it with caution:

I don't want to ramble on for too much, but I think the mobility of the stormtalon (and most mobile units) shine when the game has less units on the board. If the board is jam-packed with units, then focus firing becomes a lot easier by default. In jam-packed boards, even non-mobile models can focus fire stuff easily. But on games where both you and the opponent don't have a lot of stuff on the map (like in 1k games or 1.5k games), then the stormtalon is such a good option. This is also true for other mobile units. The bigger the board is compared to how many guys there are on it, the better mobile units perform. If the map is relatively underpopulated and there's a lot of space, then by placing objectives far apart and having a mobile army, you can gain the advantage. But if the map is jam packed, then less mobile units tend to perform better, simply because they tend to be more cost effective at just shooting. This is just a theory that I've had and I'm still testing it.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Tamiel

[Firepower]

I don't have a single lascannon in my entire army.  Every lascannon is one less sword! 

But if I were to get some, I still can't help feeling there are better delivery options. It feels like the missiles have the closest match in stats to the TLAC, and a good price tag (price being the main detriment to Talons in the shift from 7th to 8th), but being so similar to the TLAC also limits versatility a touch, despite both being well balanced between anti infantry and anti armor. A jack of all trades build instead of a specialist vehicle.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Firepower

[LucidNinja]

I know far from the same role but a razorback with ACs and a razorback with Lascannons is 30 points more but at toughness 7 and 10 more wounds. Both are better in different situations but I'd say the razorbacks are better choices in a void.

[Ishagu]

Lascannon is the weapon of choice.

 

It's a shame the assault cannon price hike hurt the Talons...

[Dracos]

I'm just rebuilding my Marine army after years of absence and needing support for my (almost only) Primaris army. I prefer using only infantry and would jump at Centurion Devestators if the were keyword Primaris and still might ...

 

 ... but I do like the Storm Talon models and wonder at their anti-tank effectiveness in comparison?

[Toxichobbit]

Lascannon is the weapon of choice.

 

It's a shame the assault cannon price hike hurt the Talons...

 

It shouldn't have done, because if GW were better designers and balancers they would have reduced the price of the Storm Talon to compensate. However, they still have a way to go before they get to the level of some other companies so we're stuck with changes based on mass community feedback that are badly applied and cause problems elsewhere. Assault cannon Razorbacks were certainly strong and needed adjusting, but Marines are not strong and the change not only brought one of their best units down, but also made a lot of other units that were already struggling, worse.

[duz_]

I loved my Talons last ed especially in their formation.

Hawks were great last ed too.

This edition I'd say Talons are clearly the better of the two now. Hawks being relegated to purely air superiority duties.

 

As for load out I think they're best focus as an anti infantry light armour gun boat so heavy bolters or MLs if you have the pts. Keep them fairly cheap though because they aren't as durable as they were in 7th because of the rule changes.