Las Vegas Open

[Bonzi]

The Eldar players can have the win. All they've done is gauranteed that the nerf bat will fall on those reapers and they'll be on to the next flavor of the month power list.

[Palwatch]

I would be surprised if our captain took a bit. Nerfing the hammer would require flat out getting rid of it,which I don't think they would do. Besides, in an edition that is massively shooting army heavy, if ur taking the chance on using an assault army you should be scary if u get there.

[toaae]

I don't think we need to be worrying about anything getting nerfed. Seems to be a knee-jerk reaction on some fraters' parts. Just jitters as a result of not having something be so desirable from our codex in the meta. 

[Panzer]

I would be surprised if our captain took a bit. Nerfing the hammer would require flat out getting rid of it,which I don't think they would do. Besides, in an edition that is massively shooting army heavy, if ur taking the chance on using an assault army you should be scary if u get there.

Also it's really not just the Hammer. It's the combination of Warlord Trait and Stratagem on the Captain. The JP relic is just icing on the cake even. If they take away the Thunderhammer (they would have to remove the relic Thunderhammer as well then btw.) then we'd just take the Powerfist and trade the D3+1 with D1d3+1. If they take the fist as well we just take the Relic Blade for S6(7 with Priest) instead of S8(10 with priest) which is still good enough with our Chapter trait.

 

So what could GW do if not removing/nerfing wargear?

+1 damage Warlord trait: Sure they could remove that but it's really only this good on this specific captain build. With other builds it's just decent and it's not like others don't have decent warlord traits either. Plus it's often not even needed unless you want to kill something really big in one round.

DC Stratagem: +1A and 6+++ re-roll 1s isn't that great on its own and is already written for exactly the Captain and few other HQ options. Not even for Primaris. So restricting it even further sounds extremely unlikely

JP relic: Yeah I guess they could do something about it, but would it make this captain loadout this much weaker? Only slightly imo

Fighting twice Stratagem/+1d3 attacks Stratagem: I guess they could exclude Characters for those but they are usually just icing on the cake as well. He already has 5 attacks hitting on 3s re-rolling 1s, wounding on 2s, AP-3 D3/4 which is plenty for most targets anyway

Increasing the Captains points: would surely work but also make all the other Captain loadouts basically not viable to play anymore. It would also be the wrong place to adjust things imo since the strength doesn't come from the Captain alone (or all Marine Captains would be a problem).

 

So I don't see a nerf coming. Not because it's not needed (it probably is), but rather because there is barely something where GW can adjust things without removing whole options.

Edited January 29, 2018 by sfPanzer

[Charlo]

BREAKING NEWS

 

Captain hailing from a Chapter known for Close Combat Prowess actually good in close combat?!?!

 

 

....yeah, we won't see captain's nerfed. The investment is big enough that he is balanced.

 

Those talking about people being overly WAAC, this is the LVO. It's cut throat. If you do something in the wrong order, sorry, you messed up!

[Panzer]

BREAKING NEWS

 

Captain hailing from a Chapter known for Close Combat Prowess actually good in close combat?!?!

 

 

....yeah, we won't see captain's nerfed. The investment is big enough that he is balanced.

 

Those talking about people being overly WAAC, this is the LVO. It's cut throat. If you do something in the wrong order, sorry, you messed up!

It's not that the Captain is simply good, he punches way above its cost. Otherwise I'd agree.

 

And about the WAAC guy...I definitely disagree there. It was a really minor thing that wouldn't change anything if done in the right order and slow playing is not good sportsmanship either. That wasn't serious competetive play, it was trying to cheese a win out of it at all cost (as the name WAAC implies).

At least he got to taste his own medicine in the next game which he apparently didn't like either: https://clips.twitch.tv/SuaveGleamingSpiderWOOP

[Ceril]

Those talking about people being overly WAAC, this is the LVO. It's cut throat. If you do something in the wrong order, sorry, you messed up!

Before game they agreed to a gentleman's game. Where the intent is the deciding factor. And not having to run around table reassuring distances. So they could ask their opponent how long a charge is needed for exampme. Also saving a lot of time. And the spirit of the game.

 

Edit: totally on their own accord. Is nothing about it in the rules.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Ceril

[Are Verlo]

Regarding the sequencing and ending phases. I feel the "you placed reserves and thus you can´t move any more units" is very unsportsman. I would always!! ask my opponent: are you sure you are done moving? It leaves a bad taste in my mouth to "trap" someone like that.

 

I play at tournaments as often as I can, but I want my wins to be from playing well, rather than "Haha! caught you". I´ll even stop someone from shooting their first unit and say: Hey man, we forgot your psychic phase.

 

Edit: Spelling

Edited January 29, 2018 by Are Verlo

[Charlo]

I do retract my statement about the WAAC stuff, now having seen the whole story online... Jeez.

[Karhedron]

I find the opposite is more likely to happen. Player 1 slaps his head and berates himself for forgetting X. Player 2 then offers him the chance to go back and do it. Player 1 gracefully declines and says he must make a mental note not to forget next time.

 

On balance I think I quite like the atmosphere at my local club.

[Kappel]

An elegant way (maybe) to nerf the Captain would be to make it impossible to take relics, from other detachments, than the one your warlord belongs to.

 

This would make the BA Captain more difficult to use in Imperial Soup lists (because he would potentially have to give up the super jump pack, or the super hammer). And it would make him a more Blood Angels exclusive character to take. Because in a more pure Blood Angels oriented army, he would almost always be the the warlord, or in the warlords detachment. 

 

The problems with the above, would off course be that it would make it more problematic for us, to ally with for example Astra Militarum, to create effective ways to generate CP. 

[Panzer]

An elegant way (maybe) to nerf the Captain would be to make it impossible to take relics, from other detachments, than the one your warlord belongs to.

 

This would make the BA Captain more difficult to use in Imperial Soup lists (because he would potentially have to give up the super jump pack, or the super hammer). And it would make him a more Blood Angels exclusive character to take. Because in a more pure Blood Angels oriented army, he would almost always be the the warlord, or in the warlords detachment. 

 

The problems with the above, would off course be that it would make it more problematic for us, to ally with for example Astra Militarum, to create effective ways to generate CP. 

That wouldn't do much considering that the relic is just the cherry on the top. It's the Warlord trait that gives +1 damage for a weapon and the Stratagems that boost his attacks and the Chapter tactic that gives +1 to wound rolls (so he can wound T5+ on 2+) that makes him strong.

 

But making him less viable for soups by changing how soups gain access to faction specific stuff is a good approach for the game in general imo.

[depthcharge12]

Regarding the sequencing and ending phases. I feel the "you placed reserves and thus you can´t move any more units" is very unsportsman. I would always!! ask my opponent: are you sure you are done moving? It leaves a bad taste in my mouth to "trap" someone like that.

 

I play at tournaments as often as I can, but I want my wins to be from playing well, rather than "Haha! caught you". I´ll even stop someone from shooting their first unit and say: Hey man, we forgot your psychic phase.

 

Edit: Spelling

Yeah I don’t mean to beat a dead horse, but wouldn’t you want someone to complete their move and do everything in their power to give you a good game? Not letting your opponent move the rest of his army like that shows some real insecurity. If I’m going to beat someone and take the title, it’s not going to be due to some rules infractions!

[Panzer]

 

Regarding the sequencing and ending phases. I feel the "you placed reserves and thus you can´t move any more units" is very unsportsman. I would always!! ask my opponent: are you sure you are done moving? It leaves a bad taste in my mouth to "trap" someone like that.

 

I play at tournaments as often as I can, but I want my wins to be from playing well, rather than "Haha! caught you". I´ll even stop someone from shooting their first unit and say: Hey man, we forgot your psychic phase.

 

Edit: Spelling

Yeah I don’t mean to beat a dead horse, but wouldn’t you want someone to complete their move and do everything in their power to give you a good game? Not letting your opponent move the rest of his army like that shows some real insecurity. If I’m going to beat someone and take the title, it’s not going to be due to some rules infractions!

 

Sadly that's not the norm. WAAC player care about only one thing: winning. And they don't care how as long as they end up being the one on top.

[TiguriusX]

The WAAC LVO controversy is all about context.  It was disgusting to see it play out live.

 

This clip gives you the "intent" context

https://clips.twitch.tv/DoubtfulRespectfulOpossumImGlitch

 

This clip is the actual rules lawyering moment

https://clips.twitch.tv/ResilientGiantInternShazBotstix

 

And this is how the player reacted when it happened to him the very next match

https://clips.twitch.tv/SuaveGleamingSpiderWOOP

 

As for the context NOT shown in those clips...the infamous player (Tony) appeared to be slow playing the hell out of the match against a close combat army (Alex). 

I didn't go back and hand time but it was like a 15 min turn for one player and over an hour for the other on turn 1.  The slow player was narrating everything on his turn and not actually doing any moving models.  When it came back to the other player he was trying to hurry up and made that order of operations mistake.

 

The stalling was considered so egregious they changed the tournament and added a chess clock timer system in the final match.  20ish minutes per turn and if you went over that limit multiple times (think it was 3 warnings) you would forfeit.

[Kallas]

Someone forgetting something is a failure on that players part. Sure it's sporting to offer them a take back, but at the same time if you're both competing in a high-level event and situation, it's on you; you're the one carrying out your turn and making decisions. If you :cuss up, you should be taking that in stride and moving on.

 

Part of a competitive game is playing your best. Your screw ups are part and parcel of your current ability and skill.

 

If you're not playing a competitive game/event then slack should most definitely be given, as then you're more looking for fun.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Kallas

[Panzer]

Mad props for Alex for being so calm about it tho. I surely wouldn't have been able to hold the snark back. Especially considering how the conversation went on.

"I would take the win and we could play for fun" .... yeah I'm sure you would lol

[TiguriusX]

Someone forgetting something ISA failure on that platers part. Sure it's sporting to offer them a take back, but at the same time if you're both competing in a high-level event and situation, it's on you; you're the one carrying out your turn and making decisions. If you  up, you should be taking that in stride and moving on.

 

Part of a competitive game is playing your best. Your screw ups are part and parcel of your current ability and skill.

 

If you're not playing a competitive game/event then slack should most definitely be given, as then you're more looking for fun.

 

The player who did the deep strike mistake (Alex) handled it with amazing class and carried on just fine.  This is more about the state of the hobby as well as the negative PR.  This was the match being broadcast to all during the semi finals.  The viewers/crowd were the ones showing their anger and displeasure.

 

You can also compare the reaction when the tables were turned the very next match.

 

The semi final match continued on with player banter etc.

 

The final match you could cut the tension with a knife after that moment.  Tony called over a judge to protest and made odd complaints afterwards.  The crowd was calling BS because he had done the same exact things in the prior match.

 

*EDIT*

To clarify...there was an example of player disagreement about whether a flyer could occupy space in a building (Tony wanted to hide his dark reapers and keep them safe from the shining spears).  However, in the prior match against Alex Tony used his wave serpent flyer and landed on top of a building in a similar situation.

 

The judges confirmed "bikes" could not enter buildings.  However, if they have keyword "flyer" it is permitted.  The shining spears were ok because they are jet bikes and include "flyer" 

Edited January 29, 2018 by TiguriusX

[Morticon]

 

 

At least he got to taste his own medicine in the next game which he apparently didn't like either: https://clips.twitch.tv/SuaveGleamingSpiderWOOP

 

So...so.....SO much schadenfreude :D D

[Jolemai]

Any flavour-of-the-BA-forum Tri-locks going on?

[Calistarius]

Someone forgetting something is a failure on that players part. Sure it's sporting to offer them a take back, but at the same time if you're both competing in a high-level event and situation, it's on you; you're the one carrying out your turn and making decisions. If you :cuss up, you should be taking that in stride and moving on.

Part of a competitive game is playing your best. Your screw ups are part and parcel of your current ability and skill.

If you're not playing a competitive game/event then slack should most definitely be given, as then you're more looking for fun.

While I agree with your principles regarding playing your best game, I disagree in the context of Alex’s situation. He made a mistake in sequencing and it wouldn’t have hurt anything to allow him to take a step back. If he had already moved on to shooting and forgot to move something all together I would understand saying no. The attitude Tony displayed is incredibly discouraging to the average player, and is a big reason why many people don’t want to get into the competitive scene. I’m all about holding your opponent accountable, but on arguably the biggest global stage a little levity and decent sportsmanship is crucial to keep expanding the hobby. I’d hate for something like this to keep good players from getting a bad image of the competitive aspect of the game we all love so much.

[Calistarius]

Any flavour-of-the-BA-forum Tri-locks going on?

Sorry for the double post (I can’t use my iPhone). I didn’t see any in the streams I watched. The highlight of the tournament for me was watching Captain Slamguinius take down the Fire Raptor, which then exploded and wiped out a good size chunk of the owning players army. That was pretty impressive for the final round on day 2.

[Aothaine]

I want to eventually go to the LVO to play and meet people but the main events I'm more excited about are the events like No Retreat. Where a focus on competitive but also fluff is encouraged. Though to be fair once TTT gets their events up and running I'm pretty sure they will set the standard for me and all my future competitive play.

[Brother Crimson]

The WAAC LVO controversy is all about context. It was disgusting to see it play out live.

 

This clip gives you the "intent" context

https://clips.twitch.tv/DoubtfulRespectfulOpossumImGlitch

 

This clip is the actual rules lawyering moment

https://clips.twitch.tv/ResilientGiantInternShazBotstix

 

And this is how the player reacted when it happened to him the very next match

https://clips.twitch.tv/SuaveGleamingSpiderWOOP

 

As for the context NOT shown in those clips...the infamous player (Tony) appeared to be slow playing the hell out of the match against a close combat army (Alex).

I didn't go back and hand time but it was like a 15 min turn for one player and over an hour for the other on turn 1. The slow player was narrating everything on his turn and not actually doing any moving models. When it came back to the other player he was trying to hurry up and made that order of operations mistake.

 

The stalling was considered so egregious they changed the tournament and added a chess clock timer system in the final match. 20ish minutes per turn and if you went over that limit multiple times (think it was 3 warnings) you would forfeit.

I think the deep strike mistake is not the worst part then.

Perhaps I would have said the same, something like « sorry deep strike are at the end of the phase, you can’t do that »

 

Maybe I would have said that it is ok but I don’t want to see this again who knows.

 

But if the slow play part is disappointing, you play under a clock, you have to make your best to have fast turns, so that the game doesn’t end up with a timeout on turn 2-3. I hate when games don’t go to the whole 5 turns because some armies are just better push back than alpha strike. Also after 5 rounds of competitive gaming you have an idea what to do.

[Charlo]

Oh man, the guy is an absolute hero in the final clip. Get dunked on.

 

There is a difference between something like "Oh I didn't charge with a unit and we've done all of the other combats" and "I've deep struck these guys at the beggining of the phase because that's how it was for the past 5 editions."