Las Vegas Open

[wildweasel]

Oh man, the guy is an absolute hero in the final clip. Get dunked on.

 

There is a difference between something like "Oh I didn't charge with a unit and we've done all of the other combats" and "I've deep struck these guys at the beggining of the phase because that's how it was for the past 5 editions."

 

Tony's attempt to take back was even more egregious cause it was 1. attempting to go back two phases to use a Stratagem, 2. he said outright he would have done the same thing to Nick if the situation was reversed, and 3. claiming " you knew what i was doing" when he knew Alex wasn't intending to not move most of his army. Tony is not the norm (see the first game Sunday, between Nick and I forgot who the other player was, but they were very cordial and friendly with each other even as they played hard), but he is the bad apple that spoils the bunch.

 

 

While I agree with your principles regarding playing your best game, I disagree in the context of Alex’s situation. He made a mistake in sequencing and it wouldn’t have hurt anything to allow him to take a step back. If he had already moved on to shooting and forgot to move something all together I would understand saying no. The attitude Tony displayed is incredibly discouraging to the average player, and is a big reason why many people don’t want to get into the competitive scene. I’m all about holding your opponent accountable, but on arguably the biggest global stage a little levity and decent sportsmanship is crucial to keep expanding the hobby. I’d hate for something like this to keep good players from getting a bad image of the competitive aspect of the game we all love so much.

 

 

And especially in the context, as has been noted, of making that mistake after being slow-played - which is done in part to try and force such mistakes.

 

ETA: Also it was kind of darkly hilarious watching the one Dave sitting there visibly restraining his rage over what Tony pulled.

Edited January 29, 2018 by wildweasel

[9x19 Parabellum]

Oh man, the guy is an absolute hero in the final clip. Get dunked on.

 

There is a difference between something like "Oh I didn't charge with a unit and we've done all of the other combats" and "I've deep struck these guys at the beggining of the phase because that's how it was for the past 5 editions."

 

Agreed. And I think the big question as it pertains to sequencing problems is "did the error privilege you with more information than you otherwise would have had if you did things in the correct order?"

 

In past editions, deep striking results were a big deal because of the randomness issue.  But the precision of 8th edition deepstrike means it's not like you wanted to wait for the scatter die result to determine whether or not, for example, you were going to bring up that unit of Tacs to support the deepstrikers.

 

Further to the point with Tony, if you're going to live by the sword, you die by the sword. 

[Kallas]

Just a note, I'm definitely not defending :cuss behaviour like what was displayed at LVO, and Alex absolutely showed excellent sportsmanship. Tony showed the opposite (ie, taking advantage of each situation to try to benefit himself, rather than being consistent).

 

My principle is to absolutely play your hardest, but that isn't mutually exclusive to being a good sportsman.

[Aothaine]

Yeah these types of players ruin the game for me. I'd honestly have flipped out at the intentional slow play. It would drive me crazy. The more I think of it competitive play most likely is not for me. I want to have fun playing the game I invested so much money into, not rage at some person that thinks winning is everything. Really disappointed in the LVO for condoning this type of behavior at all. The player should have been given a warning and then banned from the tournament if it continued. 

 

I do want to point out there is a difference between intentionally playing slow and just having a ton of models to move. Totally cool with swarm armies.  

[Calistarius]

Just a note, I'm definitely not defending :cuss behaviour like what was displayed at LVO, and Alex absolutely showed excellent sportsmanship. Tony showed the opposite (ie, taking advantage of each situation to try to benefit himself, rather than being consistent).

My principle is to absolutely play your hardest, but that isn't mutually exclusive to being a good sportsman.

Well said. I wasn’t meaning to invalidate your position. I just wanted to voice a concern of mine about the attitude from some elite players. I feel like as a community we often put these well known players on a pedestal. I don’t think their perceived status should prevent them from polite gamesmanship. I also know that being in an event like this adds a lot of pressure as it is, and this sort of stuff doesn’t help encourage attendance from the average player, like myself.

 

That said, I do agree that you need to be prepared and be sure to give each match the best you have.

[Blindhamster]

I had a friend do the same thing to me in a game a while back, we had a dad and his two kids watching us play, my friend was using knights and I was using the new primaris stuff, I had a group of intercessors pretty close to a knight already (about 7 inches away), one of the kids asked what the aggressors could do, to which i said they have power fists so one of the only things I had that could really hurt the knights in combat, and a cool ability to not suffer penalties to shooting when they advance - which i promptly said I would do so he could see - saying it would just make the charge even easier (I'd forgotten the no advance and charge as I was so busy explaining to our spectators). My friend watched me advance and shoot then said "don't forget you can't charge because you advanced".

He was absolutely right to point out my clear error, but the fact he said it before i could do or say anything in my assault phase showed he had been well aware and just let me do it.

In a tournament game - shame on me.

In a friendly game? - had he been sporting, he'd have reminded me when i said about moving them even closer for an easier charge.

Particularly as I always make allowances for him when he forgets to do things.

[Aothaine]

I had a friend do the same thing to me in a game a while back, we had a dad and his two kids watching us play, my friend was using knights and I was using the new primaris stuff, I had a group of intercessors pretty close to a knight already (about 7 inches away), one of the kids asked what the aggressors could do, to which i said they have power fists so one of the only things I had that could really hurt the knights in combat, and a cool ability to not suffer penalties to shooting when they advance - which i promptly said I would do so he could see - saying it would just make the charge even easier (I'd forgotten the no advance and charge as I was so busy explaining to our spectators). My friend watched me advance and shoot then said "don't forget you can't charge because you advanced".

 

He was absolutely right to point out my clear error, but the fact he said it before i could do or say anything in my assault phase showed he had been well aware and just let me do it.

 

In a tournament game - shame on me.

In a friendly game? - had he been sporting, he'd have reminded me when i said about moving them even closer for an easier charge.

 

Particularly as I always make allowances for him when he forgets to do things.

 

Yeah a real shame. But there are plenty of us that just want to drink beer/soda and have a good time! I just make it a habit to add people like that to my 'Do no play again' list of people. Mistakes happen for sure but good sportsman ship is so important in these games to me. I get carried away in the story of the battles that I forget rules on a regular basis. But having fun is what this game is all about. 

 

^_^

[tedzilla]

If BA won the quarter final game, why weren't they in the semifinal? Am I reading this wrong?

 

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/01/28/40k-lvo-2018-championships-presenting-the-top-8-players/

[Panzer]

Dunno, the bestcoastpairings website has been down the whole day (at least the link to the LVO stuff).

[wildweasel]

If BA won the quarter final game, why weren't they in the semifinal? Am I reading this wrong?

 

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/01/28/40k-lvo-2018-championships-presenting-the-top-8-players/

That was Pablo’s predictions going into each round of the final 8, not a recap of the games as played. Edited January 29, 2018 by wildweasel

[toaae]

If BA won the quarter final game, why weren't they in the semifinal? Am I reading this wrong?

 

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/01/28/40k-lvo-2018-championships-presenting-the-top-8-players/

 

Three Eldar and one Imperium soup were in the Semi-finals. The Imperium player did have a supreme command detachment of BA in his list. That article doesn't mention results for the quarter-finals at all.

[Blackcadian]

Having taking a liking to Infinity (skirmish TT) over the last couple years where each player commonly gets an hour I‘ve started bringing a chess clock to every 40K game, too. So far only positive feedback, will definitely keep on doing it and can recommend it.

[tedzilla]

Ok  I got it. I knew it was showing his predictions, but thought he used the actual games played. 

Edited January 29, 2018 by tedzilla

[Aothaine]

If BA won the quarter final game, why weren't they in the semifinal? Am I reading this wrong?

 

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/01/28/40k-lvo-2018-championships-presenting-the-top-8-players/

 

Just winning the match doesn't mean you move up. Even with a loss, if it was close, he could still have more points and move on. 

[wildweasel]

There’s also the fact that the DG player DQ’d himself from the quarterfinals.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Tony needs to spend some time thinking about his actions methinks.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/223437441

2:46:24 - starts the post games interview.

 

Showing off his arms to the Daves (commentators complimenting his physical fitness):

"It's the intimidation factor, It goes farther than you think in 40k ..."

 

Really Man??

You deserve some crap for that bad joke too if you are ever reading this Tony... Let's use the guns on our toy soldiers to win the game man.

 

 

I don't know Tony, but kinda feel for him caught up in this public display he has had now and can't take back.

"Don't be a Tony" ... is going around.

Let us forgive Tony what was hopefully just a bad high pressure day says I tho.

"Be an Alex" instead *nod.

 

I really hope he is a decent dude seen in a bad light at these few isolated wrong moments.

I can only hope he is regretting his very public behavior and is going to be a better player in the future.

Dude put a lot of effort into becoming the 2017 ITC champion... Sucks he had to tarnish things so publically at the LVO here.

I would suppose he felt he had to do what he had to do to win.  Gotta win at all costs to be the ITC Champion it seems...

I hope he can come to see himself and will correct his own failings as a gamer here to be more worthy of the title "champion" in the future.

For himself, the people he plays, and all of us 40k fans watching at home...

 

Our LVO champion Nick unfortunately doesn't come off too well in the post game interview either I feel.

Although watching from home at the time was pretty obviously punishing Tony for what went down with Alex previously in those final rounds.

It was pretty epic in that moment tho it all looks pretty bad to me later too...

 

Anyhow, these guys are all friends before and after as I understand it so that is good to hear of at least.

 

I really doubt GW, the ITC, or the exploding tourney business(es) especially enjoys these kind of optics on the 40k community.

Many have invested a LOT of time, treasure and energy into growing these events and making them a fun destination for all gamers.

There are many with much at stake in seeing these events succeed and grow. All boats rise and fall with sea...

 

I think a good number of 40k players with the means and ability are gonna not show up as long as this kind of play defines getting to the top winners circle.

Why would they want to bother with this kinda thing going on and deciding the top tables?

 

Saturday I was thinking I was maybe missing out on a great time... The Sunday 40k top table streams had me feeling otherwise again.

It's a shame. I really hope it was indeed a fun event for those attending otherwise.

 

Maybe some good will come from it and the tourney community will police up the mess and try harder to drive these behaviors out.

I bet if we were sitting talking with Nick and Tony they would agree this kind of heat of the moment thing hurts them and the game they love too.

 

I think FLG should take the final 40k event coverage down off TwitchTV; learn from it and plan harder to prevent the need for that kind of play next time.

The need and indeed ability to force the final games of long events to be decided by such silly things... trivializes the whole thing.

I want to see a good clean fight with no perception of punching below the belt as well. 

Looks like it might have been an outstanding event otherwise.

 

I think I will end the this with the thought:

Everybody makes mistakes.

[Panzer]

Sorry but no there's no excuse for his behaviour. It was a long and stressfull weekend for everyone there, not just for him.

If he can't handle the pressure (which I really doubt to be the case) he shouldn't take part in such events in the first place.

 

Taking it off Twitch would do more harm than good. You can't tey to hide such things.

[Explorer1]

As a regular tournament goer (been to the LVO twice), I want to comment on this. The behaviour displayed by Tony in the semi-finals is exceptional. In total I’ve played 17 LVO games and not one of them has had a moment like this. I’m also a member of a private group for ETC Players and all of them were outraged by what happened, without exception. This is not the norm in tournament play, even at the highest level. I don’t know Nick personally, but know people who do. From them I understand that his denial of Tony’s charge in the final is not his normal approach to the game. It was only done specifically because of what happened in the semi final.

 

Now of course this sort of thing happens (oddly in my experience it’s more common on the mid tables than on the top table) but please do not be put off going to tournaments because of the (very) unlikely chance you will play an idiot!

[Shaezus]

On the topic of Alex's list, I haven't watched the streams yet (nigh on impossible on this phone) so I'm wondering if he foot-slogged his Sang Guard at all. Those with an invul from the Libby and the 5+++ and the priest doing some revivals, all those 2W intercessors and sanguard make for a nice prioritisation problem for the oppo. Just wondering how he worked it, though I confess I would be surprised to see a list with no ranged AT win the tourney.

 

On the topic of the tony thing; yeah he probably is someone you could be pally with and talk to between games, but that doesn't change some peoples human nature in moments of le crunch. On the positive side his slow play led to time restrictions being put in place, which means future players won't have to suffer that kind of thing. Be grateful for people like Tony :D

 

Edit: I got Mark's list confused with Alex's, duh.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Shaezus

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Coupe things to note. Nerf bat banter seems a bit knee-jerk.

 

From Captain Smash to Dark Reapers. They're fancy and all, but not game breaking. Just really good. They aren't cancerous like razorwing spam or bookoos of cheap conscripts.

 

The CP investment makes up for the lack of points investment.

 

It was good to see BA on top tables again, but Bandwagoners are why we are looked down upon by a lot of the outside community. That's unfortunately what I went to. We will eventually see a huge influx of "BA" players. Haven't decided if that's good or bad.

 

Hopefully, It gives us the push to exceed our spot in the E Tenebrae Lux if it comes back this year.

[Xenith]

Unfortunately for him, his actions have gone worldwide and now he is "That :cuss Guy".

 

I'd imagine every single player from now on will scrutinise his actions and let him get away with zilch "because that's what he did to Alex". I can't imagine his tourney results will do well from it. I'd imagine we'll see a profuse public apology if we haven't already.

 

On another note, I have been guilty of this in the past, and it's not something I'm proud of.

 

I do get like this when I see I'm playing a WAAC gamer. I don't start a game like this, but as soon as they break Wheaton's Law, then it's fair game.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Jolemai
Swear filter dodge

[Panda_Saurus_Rex]

As a regular tournament goer (been to the LVO twice), I want to comment on this. The behaviour displayed by Tony in the semi-finals is exceptional. In total I’ve played 17 LVO games and not one of them has had a moment like this. I’m also a member of a private group for ETC Players and all of them were outraged by what happened, without exception. This is not the norm in tournament play, even at the highest level. I don’t know Nick personally, but know people who do. From them I understand that his denial of Tony’s charge in the final is not his normal approach to the game. It was only done specifically because of what happened in the semi final.

 

Now of course this sort of thing happens (oddly in my experience it’s more common on the mid tables than on the top table) but please do not be put off going to tournaments because of the (very) unlikely chance you will play an idiot!

 

 

So I'm curious about this because the elite players have all been very silent about this matter. What kind of flak is Tony getting from his friends or these circles, if any? Essentially what I'm asking is what stops him from doing this again? 

 

I don't agree with anyone saying stress or heat of the moment. He very clearly set Alex up. He helped him measure out the movement and then pulled that out of his back pocket like a giddy child. He made a gentleman's agreement and then abandoned it the moment it became advantageous for him to do so. How does anyone trust him similarly in the future?

 

Also, I tuned in over the weekend because I'm getting into the tournament scene myself and wanted to see how the best players go about it. It was very obvious even to me that Tony was intentionally slow playing Alex. You're telling me one of the best 40K players in the world takes an entire hour for ONE turn? I'm glad the judges implemented the chess clock in the final match and hope that is something that trickles down to most tournaments. At least then something good would come of all of this.

[wildweasel]

As a regular tournament goer (been to the LVO twice), I want to comment on this. The behaviour displayed by Tony in the semi-finals is exceptional. In total I’ve played 17 LVO games and not one of them has had a moment like this. I’m also a member of a private group for ETC Players and all of them were outraged by what happened, without exception. This is not the norm in tournament play, even at the highest level. I don’t know Nick personally, but know people who do. From them I understand that his denial of Tony’s charge in the final is not his normal approach to the game. It was only done specifically because of what happened in the semi final.

 

Now of course this sort of thing happens (oddly in my experience it’s more common on the mid tables than on the top table) but please do not be put off going to tournaments because of the (very) unlikely chance you will play an idiot!

Compare and contrast with the first game streamed on Sunday, the quarterfinal between Nick and Mark Poole - while they played hard, they were both very friendly and cordial with one another.

[Boudan]

Revolting; not surprising.  Sadly, there will always be apologists who blame the "Alex" person. 

 

Rules are Rules... man! He said, chicken tenders heavy on his breath.

 

Glad to hear sportsmanship is still alive in this lowest-of-stakes endeavor.

[Brother-Captain Lucius]

Did Mark possibly inadvertently cheat to win his last game? I believe his Captain was unable to 3D6 charge due to not arriving from reserve that round?