Not using primaris

[Hoots]

Hey there

Anyone else got conflicting views about primaris marines?

 

I feel that fluff wise my chapter would never let these strange interlopers into their midst; at the very most maybe making use of their numbers and firepower in much the same way they would order around a guard unit.

I certainly don't think they would be allowed to wear the honoured and hallowed symbols of the chapter or be allowed to know their significance. After all the dark angels and their subsidiaries truly know the meaning of treachery and would never see any group from outside their circles as equals.

 

So I have two questions:

1: what are your best non primaris army lists

2: what fluff are you using for primaris (other than the GW drivel that everyone is super pleased to have primaris around)!

 

Cheers folks

Hoots

[Lion's Crown]

Primaris are tasteless poster boys meant to replace the old tactical for the sole purpose of making money. I really dislike their fluff so I refuse to use them.

 

Azrael and the Dark Shroud are pretty good. Beyond that I like to diversify my lists a lot so I have no real better units it all depend on the mission and the points.

[Shadowseer]

the GW drivel that everyone is super pleased to have primaris around!

 

I would like to point out that it's very much not the case in the official fluff.

 

One example would be Gabriel Seth in the latest DA novel. While Dante is super happy about new primaris units, Seth points out that it's the end of old marines.

 

Another would be DA, who grudgingly accepted the primaris, and seem to use them as meatshields.

 

I'm not the biggest fan of some heavy-handed writing GW produced, but why be so negative about an excellent model range?

[sockwithaticket]

 

I'm not the biggest fan of some heavy-handed writing GW produced, but why be so negative about an excellent model range?

 

You've answered the question. For some, the fluff impacts how they view models.

 

OP - I'm not a DA, but my BA successors are a fairly independent bunch, so from a fluff perspective they won't be accepting the Primaris just because they have the Guilliman seal of approval. They will keep doing things their way, as they always have done.  Being non-official, I can say they didn't make it to Baal so that GW could decimate them and make taking on Primaris a necessity to remain an effective fighting force.

[Wargamer]

I just rewrote my Index Astartes to address the very issue of Primaris in my Chapter. At the moment, I'm using them as Scouts. No, really. They have sniper rifles and everything.

[CypherTheFallen]

What I'm doing wouldn't fly in any official tournament or anything, but my successor chapter has their own version of the Dreadwing (possibly the entire 3rd company, but not sure on that yet). To represent that, I'm using the forgeworld Destroyer squads with jump packs as counts-as "Inceptors". It allows me to use the powerful rules of the new primaris without requiring actual primaris models and gives me rules that work really well with the fluff I've created for my successor chapter.

[Hoots]

 

the GW drivel that everyone is super pleased to have primaris around!

I would like to point out that it's very much not the case in the official fluff.

One example would be Gabriel Seth in the latest DA novel. While Dante is super happy about new primaris units, Seth points out that it's the end of old marines.

Another would be DA, who grudgingly accepted the primaris, and seem to use them as meatshields.

I'm not the biggest fan of some heavy-handed writing GW produced, but why be so negative about an excellent model range?

Well I'm most negative because it means the eventual end of the old range which I feel had plenty that could still have been done with it. I'm also quite biased as I finally bought new models at the end of 2016 to replace and revamp my whole force (a massive investment of time, money and effort) only to be told that the new edition was going to introduce a new range of marines which will probably mean less standard marines in the future if not their eventual replacement.

 

As for the fluff having some mentions of chapter disapproval I find it still totally grates with the incredibly secretive and independant nature of almost all the different chapters that they would include these new marines in any way. Yes fight alongside them, yes see them as a force that might help you defeat your enemies, but actually including these genetically different beings into the chapter.... Eh nope I just don't see it. Let them keep fight in the blue of the ultramarines afterglow who knows what dirty genetic secretes the mechanicum and guilliman have secreted within them???

 

After all we know that for most chapters their geneseed is the most precious thing, worth risking lives over and venerated as a pinnacle of mankind's achivements and something we know Cawl had to work on in secret as it was such a taboo thing to do. The the idea that they would not see these new creations simply as abominations and drop everything in a crusade to wipe them out again makes no sense. Id genuinely prefer if GW had just bitten the bullet and said they were a new race and that most marines were at war with them, although you could Ally them in if you felt you wanted your chapter to be less hostile. Let us fight it out then three of four years from now as the old models stock disappears anyways write the fluff saying the primaris won and are now the dominant force protecting humanity.

Lastly the idea that Cawl, a mechanic (albeit an old one) has been able to create marines that are twice as resillient as those thought up by the Emperor; an massively ancient super human, psychic, demi God and master of mankind. Yes cawl got to use already available geneseed but couldn't he have just done his job making weapons and given us all those amazing new bolters a couple of thousand years ago?

 

I for one would have bought alternative Tactical, scout, vet units/sculpts (I'm very jealous of the various ultramarine special unit options; tyranic vets look awesome, give me something with a few less ultramarine symbols on it GW and take my money). Who else would have jumped at the chance to purchase redesigned vehicles (designed and built by the mechanicus now that the Imperium has rediscovered so much lost technology)?

 

Instead I just feel like the GW board wants me to throw those old models in the bin and jump for joy at their new storyline and range of models.... The only thing I'm thankful for about it is that it's not quite gone the way of fantasy.

 

Sorry about the rant, I shall cleanse myself with an undisclosed length of meditation in chamber 42....

 

Hoots

[Interrogator Stobz]

I’m the kind of collector who has masses of old marines and their vehicles, I was happy to continue massing more until the arrival of Primaris.

Now, rightly or wrongly I don’t feel that they are worth expanding on due to their second class status.

I will not be buying any Primaris but may play my old dudes as counts as.

 

GW should have taken the opportunity when they changed the stats for 8th to just upgrade marines to 2W 2A etc. and made Mk10 just a modeling choice.

The new vehicles and weapons are easily added without heartache, Cawl is a good mechanic after all. Guilliman could certainly have ordered better gear fluff wise no problem.

[deathspectersgt7]

Some may be getting a visit from the Custodes soon. Accept or DIE.

[N1SB]

Hey there

Anyone else got conflicting views about primaris marines?

 

I feel that fluff wise my chapter would never let these strange interlopers into their midst; at the very most maybe making use of their numbers and firepower in much the same way they would order around a guard unit.

I certainly don't think they would be allowed to wear the honoured and hallowed symbols of the chapter or be allowed to know their significance. After all the dark angels and their subsidiaries truly know the meaning of treachery and would never see any group from outside their circles as equals.

 

I have conflicting views about Primaris Marines as I have the same problems with them as you do, but after reading some of the recent novels, like Dark Imperium and Crusade, I have a place for them.  It's because the fluff...and even the Primaris Marines themselves...acknowledge they're NOT accepted.

 

Even Guilliman considers them "Cawl's blasphemous hordes", just a means to an end.  This discussion about just making use of their numbers and firepower is along those lines.  And a Guardman Commander berated a Primaris Lieutenant, effectively saying he's been fighting on Cadia and beyond since before they came out of their test tubes.  I think even in-universe, they're supposed to be the new poster child, but people instinctively rebelled against that, now they're quite the underdog.

 

I am very much for this mentality of just using Primaris for their numbers and firewpower.  In-game, I may reflect this by taking Troops of regular Marines or Scouts to actually do serious work like Secure Objectives while using special Primaris types, like Aggressors, for sheer shootiness and to draw aggro.

 

+++++

 

As for not using hallowed symbols of the Chapter, I honestly had considered the following idea for Crimson Fists in particular.  Imagine a Primaris Marine asking a classic Marine Captain, both in blue armour but with one major different, in this hypothetical scenario/conversation:

 

"Brother Captai..."

 

"No, do NOT call me Brother."

 

"Uh...Captain.  When may we paint our hand crimson, as is the practice of the Chapter?"

 

"You may do so when you are part OF the Chapter.  When you have survived the devastation of a homeworld, when you have held out without reinforcements for generations, you will have permission to ask me that question."

 

"But Captain!  In our blue armour, won't we be confused for Ultramarines?"

 

"As far as I'm concerned, you ARE Ultramarines*!"

 

* I imagine this particular Crimson Fist Captain considers Primaris Marines as some weird Ultramarines Successor that Guilliman birthed somehow that can't even ride Rhinos, not realising even the true Lord of Ultramar doesn't quite accept them as his sons.

 

It's just something I thought would be fun with a Crimson Fists force with Primaris, where all the classic Marines have a hand painted and none of the Primaris do.  I personally don't hate Primaris that much anymore for reasons mentioned above, but it turns out even in-universe others don't share that sentiment.

[Hoots]

I’m the kind of collector who has masses of old marines and their vehicles, I was happy to continue massing more until the arrival of Primaris.

Now, rightly or wrongly I don’t feel that they are worth expanding on due to their second class status.

I will not be buying any Primaris but may play my old dudes as counts as.

 

GW should have taken the opportunity when they changed the stats for 8th to just upgrade marines to 2W 2A etc. and made Mk10 just a modeling choice.

The new vehicles and weapons are easily added without heartache, Cawl is a good mechanic after all. Guilliman could certainly have ordered better gear fluff wise no problem.

 

Hi Stobz 

having collected for years i had lots of old models that were usually quite badly modeled and painted (some from when i was 8 or 9!).  Finally sold a lot of them on ebay to pay for a re-fit so I'll be sticking with the core of models I've got for many years to come, and if rules don't continue i'll just have smaller looking marines on the table top :P

Glad to hear they won't be dwarfed by everyone else out there, All hail mini-marines!   

 

 

Hey there

Anyone else got conflicting views about primaris marines?

 

I feel that fluff wise my chapter would never let these strange interlopers into their midst; at the very most maybe making use of their numbers and firepower in much the same way they would order around a guard unit.

I certainly don't think they would be allowed to wear the honoured and hallowed symbols of the chapter or be allowed to know their significance. After all the dark angels and their subsidiaries truly know the meaning of treachery and would never see any group from outside their circles as equals.

 

I have conflicting views about Primaris Marines as I have the same problems with them as you do, but after reading some of the recent novels, like Dark Imperium and Crusade, I have a place for them.  It's because the fluff...and even the Primaris Marines themselves...acknowledge they're NOT accepted.

 

Even Guilliman considers them "Cawl's blasphemous hordes", just a means to an end.  This discussion about just making use of their numbers and firepower is along those lines.  And a Guardman Commander berated a Primaris Lieutenant, effectively saying he's been fighting on Cadia and beyond since before they came out of their test tubes.  I think even in-universe, they're supposed to be the new poster child, but people instinctively rebelled against that, now they're quite the underdog.

 

I am very much for this mentality of just using Primaris for their numbers and firewpower.  In-game, I may reflect this by taking Troops of regular Marines or Scouts to actually do serious work like Secure Objectives while using special Primaris types, like Aggressors, for sheer shootiness and to draw aggro.

 

+++++

 

As for not using hallowed symbols of the Chapter, I honestly had considered the following idea for Crimson Fists in particular.  Imagine a Primaris Marine asking a classic Marine Captain, both in blue armour but with one major different, in this hypothetical scenario/conversation:

 

"Brother Captai..."

 

"No, do NOT call me Brother."

 

"Uh...Captain.  When may we paint our hand crimson, as is the practice of the Chapter?"

 

"You may do so when you are part OF the Chapter.  When you have survived the devastation of a homeworld, when you have held out without reinforcements for generations, you will have permission to ask me that question."

 

"But Captain!  In our blue armour, won't we be confused for Ultramarines?"

 

"As far as I'm concerned, you ARE Ultramarines*!"

 

* I imagine this particular Crimson Fist Captain considers Primaris Marines as some weird Ultramarines Successor that Guilliman birthed somehow that can't even ride Rhinos, not realising even the true Lord of Ultramar doesn't quite accept them as his sons.

 

It's just something I thought would be fun with a Crimson Fists force with Primaris, where all the classic Marines have a hand painted and none of the Primaris do.  I personally don't hate Primaris that much anymore for reasons mentioned above, but it turns out even in-universe others don't share that sentiment.

 

 

N1SB I've yet to use any Primaris other than a leiutenant who got into a couple of games early in 8th.  I do have the ones that came in the 8th starter box and if I ever get round to painting them they will be white with maybe only one green shoulder pad or single small green stripe across a knee with no chapter marks. 

For fluff these primaris will be seen as a literal meat-shield to be sent into areas where the loss of battle brothers would be deemed wasteful or pointless; or used to seemingly support allies/placate unimportant backwater worlds where my chapter don't actually want to waste their time. In table top terms I'm going to stick with the brothers I know I can trust to keep secrets or just not ask questions :D

 

Hoots      

[Normal Norman]

I have several major problems with the Primaris.

 

First and foremost I don’t see where the demand for these new Marines was. Marine rules did need at updating to 2W and attacks to show they are better than Guard but who was demanding new models? I know that there has been a lot of scale creep from GW but I didn’t give a :cuss that they were about the same size as Guard. They now make my existing marines look stupid in comparison. I don’t think I could field the two side by side as it would look a bit idiotic.

 

Secondly I don’t like the majority of the models. The weird slightly dog helmets look stupid and the Repulsor is just ridiculous. They took a landraider and gave it a turret loaded with just a stupid number of guns. The Redemptor is always posed like it has just pooped itself. I like the Apothecary and Chaplain and that is about it.

 

Thirdly I am left with a massive amount of limbo about my existing marines. Are they going to get new models in the old scale? How long will the existing kits be produced for? The whole thing is putting me off of Marines in general.

 

I am also sceptical about some of the rules choices. Why the hell cant Primaris get in a Rhino or a Landraider?

 

It is good to vent a bit at least.

[FerociousBeast]

No conflicting opinions here! I LOVE the new Money Marines!

 

:P

Edited January 28, 2018 by FerociousBeast

[Stoic Raptor]

While they're not going to be accepted into the Inner Circle for obvious reasons, they are still the gene-seed of The Lion - and in a way, some are more directly so than any Unforgiven born in M41.

[Hoots]

No conflicting opinions here! I LOVE the new Money Marines!

:P

Well I knew I wasn't going to be alone but that's quite interesting to see that most people agree on the poor fluff being their biggest problem with the new range. Many liking the models and even agreeing that they would be happy if these were the new size for marines.

 

So my challenge to all those brothers of the Lion is what do you take in a non primaris force? I'd be really keen to see what people think are our best options, I've drawn up mine it's over on Dark Angels army lists pages have look and give it a critique.

 

Hoots

[SnakeChisler]

I really like the new range, they’re a larger model and I find them easier to paint.

 

In terms of hobby it's a golden age so many possibilities, new speeder conversion Sableclaw finally useable

 

As for having to buy new stuff it's up to the individual my early 8th lists were a revamp of double demi as double brigade the 1St thing I had to buy was more scouts when I started making new lists.

 

Enjoy the hobby the way you want, if you don't want Primaris for whatever reason then that's your personal choice

Edited January 29, 2018 by Interrogator Stobz

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Instead of Hellblasters you can use Plasma devastators. And that's about it, the rest of primaris line can be replaced here and there by scouts or tactical squads or other units.

I get that people don't want them because of models or fluff. Modelwise, tastes can't be discussed, but Fluffwise, the new lore revelations make Primaris lower than scouts on the "food chain", so they have to earn trust and respect of their Battle brothers and that's quite all right with me. It's not like they were shoehorned directly as  High level Inner Circle members, so basically they have to work for it, and that's fine by me.

In the end, it's our money, our army so we do as we see fit so opinions are only that.

[CapRichard]

The "problem" that the Primaris model line has with Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves is that these chapters unique units are mostly outiside the Primaris line, either by equipment (armor) or by fluff.

 

Blood Angels have sanguinary guard and the whole Death Company, Space Wolves the usual blood claw selection method and Dark Angels is all about Ravenwing and Deathwing, based on bikes, skimmers and terminator armors, all things precluded from Primaris. So just take those, some old greenwing for support and you're set. It's not like Primaris are an obligation forced upon you to include in your army. For now their price prevents them to be an autoinclude over old type marines.

So I would say that it's very wasy to make primarisless lists with Dark Angels. True, WFTDA works wonders with Hellblasters and Inceptors, but by now choosing them you're not loosing that much. I would go with mostly Ravenwing as they have the best units.

[sneakybamsen]

Hoots, I wholeheartedly agree. I think you should have been "treated" in Cell 42 for using primaris lieutenants even early on, but that is not my decision.

 

It's the fluff killing primaris for me. At least as a DA player. I find the models to be cool enough, but that doesn't mean I have to use them if they don't fit my view of the legion. I did at some point play with the idea of a Ravenguard Primaris army, as they are much more agreeable to primaris fluffwise. But since I have so much stuff and I'm going to make that TS army actually happen, the primaris dudes will probably not be something I'll own.

[Stormxlr]

I ignore primaris and none of the serious players (adults) in my local meta even have them. I finished collecting Deathwing (70 Terminators 3LRs, 5Dreads) Im finishing my 5th company (full company with all vehicles and fellblade plus thunderhawk) My ravenwing just needs a dark talon, 9 black knights and 3 more bikers and 1 attack bike and sammael on corvex and its done. Once all of this is complete Im done with GW and moving on to Flames of War, Infinity and Malifaux. /

Edited January 29, 2018 by Stormxlr

[Helycon]

I ignore primaris and none of the serious players (adults) in my local meta even have them. I finished collecting Deathwing (70 Terminators 3LRs, 5Dreads) Im finishing my 5th company (full company with all vehicles and fellblade plus thunderhawk) My ravenwing just needs a dark talon, 9 black knights and 3 more bikers and 1 attack bike and sammael on corvex and its done. Once all of this is complete Im done with GW and moving on to Flames of War, Infinity and Malifaux. /

What you do is your prerogative, but calling people out because they have and play Primaris as childish is, in fact childish.

 

I enjoy the models a lot, very much so. The sculpts are great and the power and options they bring is very cool. They may not be the be-all-end-all, but versatility is never a bad thing.

 

I haven't acquainted myself with the fluff behind them, except for the fact the Dark Angels don't trust them, and rightfully so. Our secrets are not meant for outsiders, which Primaris still are, even in the couple of hundred years they've been fighting alongside the Dark Angels. they are the first strike force and are expendable. Inceptors are a prime example. Hit hard, be a threat and get focussed, so the Brothers of the chapter can live. Have those Aggressors deal with hordes and get overwhelmed by gaunts, get that squad of Hellblasters moving forward and be a threat. They attract attention and will die for it. Will the Dark Angels shed a tear? They will not. But they live, whilst the job gets done as well...

 

On a sort of fluffy note: the Redemptorist Dread supposedly uses the same sarcophagus as a regular Castaferrum and should take regular marines as well, even if it burns out it's pilot quickly. Would you use one then?

[Stormxlr]

 

I ignore primaris and none of the serious players (adults) in my local meta even have them. I finished collecting Deathwing (70 Terminators 3LRs, 5Dreads) Im finishing my 5th company (full company with all vehicles and fellblade plus thunderhawk) My ravenwing just needs a dark talon, 9 black knights and 3 more bikers and 1 attack bike and sammael on corvex and its done. Once all of this is complete Im done with GW and moving on to Flames of War, Infinity and Malifaux. /

What you do is your prerogative, but calling people out because they have and play Primaris as childish is, in fact childish.

 

I enjoy the models a lot, very much so. The sculpts are great and the power and options they bring is very cool. They may not be the be-all-end-all, but versatility is never a bad thing.

 

I haven't acquainted myself with the fluff behind them, except for the fact the Dark Angels don't trust them, and rightfully so. Our secrets are not meant for outsiders, which Primaris still are, even in the couple of hundred years they've been fighting alongside the Dark Angels. they are the first strike force and are expendable. Inceptors are a prime example. Hit hard, be a threat and get focussed, so the Brothers of the chapter can live. Have those Aggressors deal with hordes and get overwhelmed by gaunts, get that squad of Hellblasters moving forward and be a threat. They attract attention and will die for it. Will the Dark Angels shed a tear? They will not. But they live, whilst the job gets done as well...

 

On a sort of fluffy note: the Redemptorist Dread supposedly uses the same sarcophagus as a regular Castaferrum and should take regular marines as well, even if it burns out it's pilot quickly. Would you use one then?

 

I did not call anyone out, you just saw it that way. All I said was that there are no adults in my meta that have primaris marines. Only Adults in my area are serious players everyone else are teenagers who are just getting in the hobby or modelling hobbyists who do not play the game. We have about 20 people who play games on serious level, no Primaris among them.

 Redemptors are useless, why bother with inferior technology when I have a Leviathan? Anything not from STC or sanctioned by The Emperor is HERESY.

[march10k]

I think the point is that you gots to keep on buying more plastic from GW, and, since I have the entire 5th company bought (and almost finished with assembly/paint),  I haven't bought anything for my marines other than the occasional box of terminators or the newest vehicle since...2008?  Now, I have been buying more plastic crack all the time, just for armies other than DA, but since pretty much everyone has a marines army, influencing the entire community to replace a couple of thousand dollars worth of infantry each is a massive money grab.  Thanks but no thanks.  We saw this with AoS.  A holy oath to support legacy armies in perpetuity that turned out to be a half-truth.  You're allowed to play with the old models, as long as you aren't interested in winning.  We're nowhere near that point with 40k, but we are in a place that's consistent with the period immediately after AoS dropped.  When new players start playing pure primaris armies and old players add enough primaris stuff to their collections, production of the old stuff could drop off and support for them could taper away.  That doesn't have to happen, but the door is open.

 

As far as the capabilities of the new units, the only one I'm interested in is plasma inceptors.  And I don't actually *need* them.  I don't have a single unboxed primaris marine (I did pick up the special edition lieutenant before the codex gave us regular lieutenants) in my collection, but that's not because I'm boycotting them, it's because I already have all of the tools I need to succeed without them. 

[Pigshead]

My own personal fluff for my dark angels is that the 4th Company we wiped out in a brutal conflict against nids. The primaris marines were used to replace the entire company and then shipped off to fight away from the chapter at large and left out of the loop. Every now and the. Azrael and a handful of vets turn up to see how they are getting on. This lets me field either my 3rd or 4th Company, old or new marines, with Azzy without compromising the chapters secrets, and I get to play with new toys.

[Kilofix]

3 X 5 Intercessors with Stalker are not bad for Battalion Troops. Usually I wouldn’t take Stalkers but with Grim Resolve, they can do work at max range even while your Master is up front.