Not using primaris

[Helycon]

 

 

I ignore primaris and none of the serious players (adults) in my local meta even have them. I finished collecting Deathwing (70 Terminators 3LRs, 5Dreads) Im finishing my 5th company (full company with all vehicles and fellblade plus thunderhawk) My ravenwing just needs a dark talon, 9 black knights and 3 more bikers and 1 attack bike and sammael on corvex and its done. Once all of this is complete Im done with GW and moving on to Flames of War, Infinity and Malifaux. /

What you do is your prerogative, but calling people out because they have and play Primaris as childish is, in fact childish.

 

I enjoy the models a lot, very much so. The sculpts are great and the power and options they bring is very cool. They may not be the be-all-end-all, but versatility is never a bad thing.

 

I haven't acquainted myself with the fluff behind them, except for the fact the Dark Angels don't trust them, and rightfully so. Our secrets are not meant for outsiders, which Primaris still are, even in the couple of hundred years they've been fighting alongside the Dark Angels. they are the first strike force and are expendable. Inceptors are a prime example. Hit hard, be a threat and get focussed, so the Brothers of the chapter can live. Have those Aggressors deal with hordes and get overwhelmed by gaunts, get that squad of Hellblasters moving forward and be a threat. They attract attention and will die for it. Will the Dark Angels shed a tear? They will not. But they live, whilst the job gets done as well...

 

On a sort of fluffy note: the Redemptorist Dread supposedly uses the same sarcophagus as a regular Castaferrum and should take regular marines as well, even if it burns out it's pilot quickly. Would you use one then?

 

I did not call anyone out, you just saw it that way. All I said was that there are no adults in my meta that have primaris marines. Only Adults in my area are serious players everyone else are teenagers who are just getting in the hobby or modelling hobbyists who do not play the game. We have about 20 people who play games on serious level, no Primaris among them.

 Redemptors are useless, why bother with inferior technology when I have a Leviathan? Anything not from STC or sanctioned by The Emperor is HERESY.

 

 

You explanation makes a lot more sense now, your wording was a bit poor in the first post then. Apologies from my end!

 

A Leviathan is a ton more points though. Sure, it's a great model, has amazing rules. The entire statline is better, with a 4++ to boot. Doesn't change the fact that a Redemptor is a pretty decent machine that does a lot more damage than most people realise. To be fair, I haven't used my Leviathan yet. I'm afraid I might lose some friends 

[march10k]

Anything is better than legacy dreads.  Playing against my six year old, I lost two vennies on the top half of turn one! One got nuked by a crisis team, that's expected, but the other one went down to an autocannon havoc squad (he had tau and alpha legion, lol...hey, he's six.)

[FlamingDeth]

My complaint about the fluff isn’t in relation to the DA, but the fact they exist at all. Their creation and introduction was as ham handed as it gets, and completely unnecessary. If they just said, “Hey guys, new armor mark, only one that’s getting produced now,” people would have still bought them in droves. After all, you don’t see a lot of RT marines around and nobody complained about phasing them out.

[Brother Chaplain Tyranus]

Come now brothers. Can we not be a little more lenient towards the dogs of girlyman? I mean sure, our secrets are very special to us but when have we ever turned down opportunity when it presents itself? I understand for those of you that have overarching themes for your armies but if thats the case, just make them up for however you like. Seems like a lot if you do that already anyways. I also like the models. I'm currently using some hellblasters (under the watchful eye of azrael of course) and they are destructive. They aren't so much a part of the chapter, but rather a weapon that has been given to us during this dark time. Most in this conclave are implying that the lives of the primaris are worthless, then what better way to honour that then to load them up with plasma guns and let them loose. To keep up with this narrative I overcharge them every round. Risking their lives for an extra damage is worth it. No one is saying you have to trust them. No one is saying you have to use them, but if you are willing to send a brother out against unspeakable odds as opposed to an "initiate" that is more resilient than said brother, then I think we need to have a chat in the cellars...

[Shadowseer]

TBH that's a shocking amount of negativity towards GW and Primaris stuff. I sincerely hope most people in the thread are just taking the piss.

 

Nevertheless, and however you field your troops, I hope you enjoy the hobby.

[Helycon]

TBH that's a shocking amount of negativity towards GW and Primaris stuff. I sincerely hope most people in the thread are just taking the piss.

 

Nevertheless, and however you field your troops, I hope you enjoy the hobby.

Sort of, I guess.

 

It really has a lot to do with the background story of the 1st Legion and the divide during the Heresy. It's the Dark Angels' greatest secret, one they don't gladly share with newcomers. Save the most dedicated are entrusted with the information of the Fallen, and the Primaris are just pushed in by Guilleman, new guys that have no idea about the dark past the Dark Angels harbour. They're guarded and don't trust them.

 

They way players express this on the tabletop is like that. They use them but don't exactly mourn their losses. They are expendable, nothing more, nothing less.

 

That's not to say there are people who like the models, because quite frankly, they are really well done. Some of the poses could be a little bit more dynamic maybe, but the detail on them is lovely. Inceptors are some of the best models you can have as a DA player, simply due to the strategem and it's power to erase a big fella withing 18" of them deepstriking. Aggressors work well with Grim Resolve. Hellblasters are also good with the stratagem.

 

I really think most people here dislike them because of the fluff, and what they may represent for the future of the models. The latter we'll have to see, the former is done.

[Stormxlr]

Exactly, I dislike them because of fluff. If GW had balls they would have just came out with a press release and said something along this lines; " Hey everyone been wanting proper sized marines, here have them, in fluff all marines are the same size, please understand that we want to move the model range into modern times and needed to update it because we know that current line has been designed 20 years ago. Here is primaris upgrade kit for your current marines (taller legs and waist spacer) and here are all the new marine model range plus new units. Do whatever you want with them. We will be moving all marines to new primaris range in the coming years and phasing out the old line. This does not make your short marines any less valuable. In fluff they are exactly the same" 

 

In fluff they simply could explain it this way:

" I Guilliman is back and I am a Primarch and I am really really smart so I designed up some new weapons and armor along with this guy Cawl during the 120 year Indomitus Crusade. I also decided that Legion Support Squads (Hellblasters) were a good idea and brought those back. Terminator armor is very hard to produce and upkeep while Centurions are too big for indoor fighting and are not mobile enough and really are kinda a degradation of a design, here is new Gravis armor, its basically heavy power armor or light terminator armor. Before the Heresy grav tech was actually pretty common and as a Primarch I know how things work and I can force the bureaucracy to get on with it so I brought those old STC designes of grav Land Raiders back and updated them, also you can upgrade all your vehicles to grav design. Also Leviathan dreadnoughts were dope, here is a little less volatile and crazy version but its easier to produce and upkeep. Lastly as a Primarch I know how to make space marines faster and we dont really need as much indoctrination, since times are so bad I put mechanicus into overdrive to pump out new and old stuff to supply our chapters and also unlocked vaults of terra where all the geneseed is stored so we spent first 30 years since i was back right after fall of cadia making and trainign new marines non stop, we basically pumped out 2 legions worth of marines in about 50 years. I made sure to invite Chapter master of Every founding Chapter who I could find or get in touch with to get them to help me do this because Im not a God, Im just a really really smart person with limitless potential and influence. "

 

 

On the other topic Hellblasters are a dumb name. First of all it uses a religious term which Gman wouldnt be happy about, the name sounds like something from a sunday morning cartoon. Aggressors and Interceptors are good enough... but Hellblasters? really?

 

Also Ancients are Dreadnought pilots and Banner-bearers are Banner-bearers

Edited January 30, 2018 by Stormxlr

[jbaeza94]

In my chapter, primaris are welcomed and centuries (companies) were added to the force organization.

Thing with the fallen though, my chapter doesn't know the whole truth. The da keep the chapter master at about deathwing level of knowledge, and it trickles down from there. They don't trust the iron lions with the whole truth, they just tell them enough to be of use in the hunt. Although in the iron lions there are no primaris in the hunt, it's not because they're untrusted, it's because they're not ready or worthy yet.

[march10k]

My complaint about the fluff isn’t in relation to the DA, but the fact they exist at all. Their creation and introduction was as ham handed as it gets, and completely unnecessary. If they just said, “Hey guys, new armor mark, only one that’s getting produced now,” people would have still bought them in droves. After all, you don’t see a lot of RT marines around and nobody complained about phasing them out.

 

Well, if you don't want DA-specific responses, then you've put this thread in the wrong forum.  I agree with your non-DA-specific complaint, but this is the DA forum, you can't reasonably bar DA-specific discussion of the topic you've raised.

 

 

It really has a lot to do with the background story of the 1st Legion and the divide during the Heresy. It's the Dark Angels' greatest secret, one they don't gladly share with newcomers. Save the most dedicated are entrusted with the information of the Fallen, and the Primaris are just pushed in by Guilleman, new guys that have no idea about the dark past the Dark Angels harbour. They're guarded and don't trust them.

 

 

Meh.  I don't trust non-primaris noobs, either.  You don't begin to be initiated into the circles within circles until you've proven your loyalty under a long period of scrutiny.  So I expect that primaris marines will begin making it into the Deathwing in a matter of a century or so.  The real problem for DA is Primaris Librarians.  Particularly those who weren't selected by the Unforgiven during the normal course of grooming new meat.  The ones that were gifted to us by Girlyman fully formed and ready for war are too dangerous to be allowed to live, and I trust that they've all been given a glorious death on the battlefield by now!  But the ones that we raise ourselves from the carefully selected men of our recruiting worlds?  They are no more dangerous than a non-primaris recruit.

[FlamingDeth]

I didn’t raise the topic and wasn’t barring DA specific responses? I was simply noting that my issues with them go further than how they relate to DA.

[Ishagu]

From a model and business perspective what GW did was totally right.

 

The old Marine range was bloated and redundant. Multiple different units, all nearly identical with the exception of weapon options. Assault Marines, Devastators, Tacticals - all the same interchangeable model, same stats, underwhelming and dated. People already owned dozens if not hundreds.

Primaris come in, amazing variety between even the few kits. Inceptors are not simply Intercessors with jump packs for example. Great rules, amazing models.

This is the new Marine range, new players and old are jumping on them and more variety will come in future.

 

As for the fluff, it's actually a lot better if you read the novels and not just the basic blurbs in the rulebook or summaries of events on forums.

 

The Dark angels specifically would use the means available to them to remain a powerful and influential chapter.

[Major_Gilbear]

From a model and business perspective what GW did was totally right.

 

The old Marine range was bloated and redundant. Multiple different units, all nearly identical with the exception of weapon options. Assault Marines, Devastators, Tacticals - all the same interchangeable model, same stats, underwhelming and dated. People already owned dozens if not hundreds.

Primaris come in, amazing variety between even the few kits. Inceptors are not simply Intercessors with jump packs for example. Great rules, amazing models.

This is the new Marine range, new players and old are jumping on them and more variety will come in future.

 

As for the fluff, it's actually a lot better if you read the novels and not just the basic blurbs in the rulebook or summaries of events on forums.

 

All of this is basically irrelevant to what the original poster asked about.

 

 

The Dark angels specifically would use the means available to them to remain a powerful and influential chapter.

 

As the only bit of your copy-paste post that's relevant here, please explain further: How would they use the Primaris in this capacity? Why would they? Would it conflict with their other goals?

[Ishagu]

Do you think Azrael would intentionally make his Chapter inferior?

 

The Primaris are superior Astartes, un-burdened by the past shame of the Dark Angels. Who better to hunt the traitors?

Do they need to know everything? No. Will they be super effective weapons of war? Yes

 

Was there ever any doubt that the DA would accept them fully? Can you imagine the proud sons of the Lion not having the finest possible warriors amongst their chapter?

Edited February 1, 2018 by Ishagu

[Robbienw]

The Dark Angels already have the finest possible warriors amongst their chapter, they belong to the 1st company, aka the Deathwing ;)

 

I personally avoid the whole Primaris thing for the moment by having my Dark Angels be a pre-gathering storm army, so I can ignore the subpar fluff and models.  A 40k army, as opposed to a 41k army.

[Darkangeldentist]

As far as fluff inclusion for them is concerned I can cope with what GW have done. These are portentous, perilous times and no commander should shun an opportunity or offer out of hand. Although the Dark angels are rarely known to operate with other organisations we do fight with other imperial formations and the codex left me with the impression that primaris marines are largely treated like an allied formation rather than part of the chapter. 

 

For table time and actual gaming they are very much personal choice. I will not be in  a hurry to add any primaris marines to my Dark angels because I can already field a variety of forces and I've been enjoying the game with what I have. For people building new armies the primaris units are lovely sculpts and generally effective on the tabletop. The popularity of weapons with a damage value greater than 1 greatly diminishes the on paper advantage they have over regular marines and the game for me has been a very curious mix when it comes to the number of models on the table. More bodies has it's perks even if the overall potential output isn't so different. It just depends on what you face and how the game unfolds. 

[march10k]

Do you think Azrael would intentionally make his Chapter inferior?

 

The Primaris are superior Astartes, un-burdened by the past shame of the Dark Angels. Who better to hunt the traitors?

Do they need to know everything? No. Will they be super effective weapons of war? Yes

 

Was there ever any doubt that the DA would accept them fully? Can you imagine the proud sons of the Lion not having the finest possible warriors amongst their chapter?

 

I can see your point.  From the perspective of them having been "used up" by the time the primarchs started popping up and other legions started to specialize in various aspects of warfare, on the one hand, there may be some stubborn resistance to the concept of innovation ("if we were good enough to kick-start the crusade, it ain't broken, no fix is needed"), but this is also an opportunity to get in on the ground floor with the next evolution and not be left behind again. 

 

I think the First Legion may have a greater level of trust in the primaris marines that they grow themselves than in the ones gifted to them by Girlyman, but other than the DIRE threat that those prefabricated librarians pose, keeping secrets from primaris marines until and unless they gain the Inner Circle's trust is really no different and no harder than keeping brothers in the battle and reserve companies in the dark.  It's business as usual.

[Stoic Raptor]

Let us not forget that the Unforgiven as a whole suffered terrible losses fighting Typhus and the Ouroboros at the ruins of Caliban.  Perhaps they didn't lose as many Marines as the Crimson Fists or the Blood Angels, but Azrael is not about to look a gift horse in the mouth in his time of need.

 

And I agree with March10k that keeping secrets from Primaris is no different than business as usual with the rank-and-file.  As for the Primaris Librarians?  I imagine they are tested as thoroughly as their non-Primaris counterparts - and those who cannot keep the truth in confidence suffer the same fate as any who betray the trust of the Inner Circle.  Why would they tell these secrets to their Primaris brethren, knowing that they and those they tell might be put to death for it (and likely in a literally excrutating fashion)?

[Othniel's Blade]

I can't remember it all, but the screening that Zahariel went through regarding the attempted hit on the Emperor on Caliban nearly wrecked him, did it not? Shouldn't be much easier to get through with vengeful Librarians seeking out even less of a chance of corruption or betrayal.

[Hoots]

Let us not forget that the Unforgiven as a whole suffered terrible losses fighting Typhus and the Ouroboros at the ruins of Caliban.  Perhaps they didn't lose as many Marines as the Crimson Fists or the Blood Angels, but Azrael is not about to look a gift horse in the mouth in his time of need.

 

And I agree with March10k that keeping secrets from Primaris is no different than business as usual with the rank-and-file.  As for the Primaris Librarians?  I imagine they are tested as thoroughly as their non-Primaris counterparts - and those who cannot keep the truth in confidence suffer the same fate as any who betray the trust of the Inner Circle.  Why would they tell these secrets to their Primaris brethren, knowing that they and those they tell might be put to death for it (and likely in a literally excrutating fashion)?

 

I am currently reading some lore (see below) which i think is quite relevant to this point.

 

We learn that those marines that joined the first legion from the ranks of the Emperors forces from terra (the terrans) are not trusted by Lion El Johnson and that that is why he banishes them to Caliban where some, though not all eventually seem to have become rebellious.

 

I therefore feel that as a chapter this would be reflected in the current Grand master and other high ranking officials views on external forces.

Yes they might eventually see those Primaris grown "in house" as being worthy of moving up the ranks and gaining knowledge but given that Cawl has done weird things to their DNA who knows if they have some secret mutations which would allow them to be psychic in a way that my chapter cannot detect; or that they have an in-built coding that means they will spill the beans if they find out anything they or their true masters might think useful in saving the Imperium, Dominating other chapters. 

 

I can't think that my Chapter would hide a secret for 10k years then let these guys anywhere near them until they have torn that DNA apart and understood every last thing about it... and given that none of them are as good at genetics as the emperor or have had 10k years like Cawl there's going to be a bit of a wait.

 

Books: Angels of Darkness, By Gav Thorpe and Call of the Lion By Gav Thorpe (short novel in Tales of Heresy)

 

Hoots 

[palin2222]

I do use primaris. 

As for the fluff, I play the 7th reserve company (I call it the reserve-wing) I have a Chapter Master (Power armor), 2 Lieutenants (One Power armor, 1 Primaris) 6 Tactical Squads, and 2 Primaris Intercessor squads. To me it made sense that the dark angels, having these new units forced on them, would relegate them to the reserve units until the inner circle found out if they could be trusted  or not. 

[Slave to Darkness]

My complaint about the fluff isn’t in relation to the DA, but the fact they exist at all. Their creation and introduction was as ham handed as it gets, and completely unnecessary. If they just said, “Hey guys, new armor mark, only one that’s getting produced now,” people would have still bought them in droves. After all, you don’t see a lot of RT marines around and nobody complained about phasing them out.

We did, but there wasnt the internet to complain on.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Slave to Darkness

[FarFromSam]

The models look great. Haven't read the fluff, but if bottom line is true, (Martian robot, and an emperors son out does the Emperor himself) than no level of great writing can salvage it. The core concept itself is flawed.

 

So, I, like many have said, ignore the fluff. The new primaris are new sculpts for existing marines, just with a silly stat line.

 

The models that don't have an easy answer for are those floating trash trucks. Christ those are awful looking. Yikes. My 2 cents, LOVE that the new marines have interchangeable heads/shoulders