Pistols

[McElMcNinja]

"A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit, but it must target the closest enemy unit. In such circumstances, the model can shoot its Pistol even if other friendly units are within 1" of the same enemy unit."

 

I read this as if I have a unit (in this case it was Typhus) 3" away from an enemy unit (it was Space Marines) who were engaged with a friendly unit (Poxwalkers), that I can shoot the Destroyer Hive into the Space Marines.

But I was told that Typhus also had to be within 1" to do so. I disagree, I believe anyone with a pistol can shoot regardless of whose within 1" of each other as long as your pistol has range and you are shooting the closest enemy.

[Prot]

It's funny you mention this... this exact thing happened to me last game, and I had the same question pop up. I said I believed I could fire into the close combat with Typhus' pistol. My opponent didn't understand how.... and for the sake of brevity I didn't bother, but I'd really like to know the real answer to this as well. 

[Bryan Blaire]

The rule for targetting states that you cannot target a unit that is within 1" of a friendly unit.

 

The rules for shooting a pistol state: "the model can shoot its Pistol even if other friendly units are within 1" of the same enemy unit", seeming to override the rule for targetting.

 

However, the beginning of that statement is "In such circumstances". These circumstances are defined by the earlier sentence "A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit". To be able to perform the second part of the second sentence, you must satisfy the circumstances of the first sentence, otherwise you are still held to the standard rule for targeting.

 

So to satisfy the circumstances under which you may fire at an enemy unit within 1" of a friendly unit, you must also satisfy the requirement of "if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit". It is a very awkward way of writing the rule, but the interpretation given as:

But I was told that Typhus also had to be within 1" to do so.

is correct.

 

I disagree, I believe anyone with a pistol can shoot regardless of whose within 1" of each other as long as your pistol has range and you are shooting the closest enemy.

Can you explain how you satisfy the circumstances required by the second sentence so that you may target a unit engaged with yours?

[McElMcNinja]

"A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit, but it must target the closest enemy unit."

 

Typhus was 3" away so he can shoot at anything within range, but had he been within 1" of an enemy unit he must target the closest enemy unit.

 

"In such circumstances, the model can shoot its Pistol even if other friendly units are within 1" of the same enemy unit."

 

So in this circumstance, Typhus is shooting a pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of him and even if other friendly units are within 1" of the same enemy.

 

I am reading the "even if" to mean that it doesn't have to exist to happen, but if it does exist you can still shoot.

Edited January 28, 2018 by McElMcNinja

[Bryan Blaire]

Thing is, the "in such circumstances" must be satisfied for you to use the end of that sentence. If that is not satisfied, then you have to use the standard targeting rules, which say you can't target an enemy unit if it is within 1" of a friendly unit, because you can't use the second half of the sentence.

 

The rule is effectively written backward.

 

Let's take the situation from the front and work through the logic:

Your Typhus is 3" away from the enemy unit. May he shoot his pistol?

 

Shooting rules:

1. Select unit to shoot with - can't shoot if it Advanced, Fell Back or is within 1" of an enemy unit.

This step is satisfied for Typhus, so he can shoot.

 

2. Pick a target - chosen target must be visible. “Models cannot target enemy units that “are within 1" of friendly models”

Dang, this step is not satisfied for Typhus, as the chosen target is within 1" of the friendly Poxwalkers.

 

So now we have to move to the Pistol rules to see if it provides an exemption from this rule.

 

"Pistol: A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit, but it must target the closest enemy unit”

Okay, this circumstance doesn't apply, because there are no enemy units within 1" to trigger the "even if" statement.

 

"In such circumstances, the model can shoot its Pistol even if other friendly units are within 1" of the same enemy unit."

There are no such circumstances, because the Model doesn't meet the previous statement necessary, therefore the rest of the sentence does not apply.

 

Since the rules for the Pistol are not triggered, the shooting unit must fall back to the standard rules for targeting a unit. We already went through those and know that Typhus is not allowed to fire at the engaged unit.

 

And :ph34r: by Kallas.

[Kallas]

TL;DR

Bryan Blair is correct.

 

 

"A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit, but it must target the closest enemy unit."

This rule allows you to fire when within 1" of an enemy. It does not allow you to fire at an enemy within 1", unless you are within 1" of them.

 

There are weapons that can do what you're trying to do (Flesh Hooks, for example: "This weapon can be fired within 1" of an enemy unit, and can target enemy units within 1" of friendly units." ) but Pistols do not have that language.

 

Pistols:

- can be fired if there's an enemy within 1" (against the normal rules that say you can't)

- if they do, they must shoot the closest unit (not allowed to shoot engaged enemies)

- then, if you try to do the above, the Pistol rule gives you an exception allowing you to shoot models that are within 1" of friendly models, which must also be the closest one (as per the earlier rules)

 

If Typhus is:

- not within 1" of any enemies, he may not shoot at enemies within 1" of any friendlies (unless he has a rule somewhere saying he may: to my knowledge he does not)

- within 1" of one or more enemy models he may shoot his Pistol weapon(s); these shots must target the closest enemy model

Edited January 28, 2018 by Kallas

[McElMcNinja]

But the circumstance is that I'm shooting a pistol even if I am within 1" of an enemy. It doesn't say I have to be, it says "even if".

Then "even if" friendly models are within 1" of the same enemy unit I can shoot that enemy unit.

Edited January 28, 2018 by McElMcNinja

[Lysere]

But the circumstance is that I'm shooting a pistol even if I am within 1" of an enemy. It doesn't say I have to be, it says "even if".

Then "even if" friendly models are within 1" of the same enemy unit I can shoot that enemy unit.

The circumstance must be met by the model attempting to do the shooting. Unless Typhus himself is within 1" he does not meet the circumstance. Pretty sure this conversation had already been done before so a search should find you the same discussion.

[Kallas]

But the circumstance is that I'm shooting a pistol even if I am within 1" of an enemy. It doesn't say I have to be, it says "even if".

Then "even if" friendly models are within 1" of the same enemy unit I can shoot that enemy unit.

Normally, you may fire a Pistol as any other weapon. Normally, you may not fire anything while within 1" of an enemy. Normally, you may not fire at an enemy within 1" of a friendly model.

 

The Pistol rule does not let you fire at an enemy within 1" of a friendly model, unless the firing model is also within 1" of an enemy model, and then you must shoot at the closest enemy model.

 

PISTOL

 

A model can fire a Pistol if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit but it must target the closest enemy unit. In such circumstances, the model can fire it's Pistol even if other friendly units are within 1" of the same enemy unit.

First sentence lets you shoot while within 1", targeting the closest enemy unit. Second sentence gives you license, when you do the first part, to continue to do so even if another friendly unit is involved.

 

I don't know how to explain it any further. If you're not within 1", you can't shoot into a combat (barring a separate rule); if you're within 1", you can shoot but only at the closest.

[McElMcNinja]

My confusion comes from the "even if", to me that means pistols can be shot "even if" I am with 1" of an enemy unit (except that if I am I must shoot the closest enemy unit) "even if" other friendly units are within 1" of the same enemy unit.

It doesn't say I can only shoot if I am within 1" of the same unit, it says I can "even if".

Edited January 28, 2018 by McElMcNinja

[Kallas]

You can't read part of the sentence, it must be taken as a whole. And the whole says, "In such circumstances..." which is referring to the previous sentence.

[Bryan Blaire]

My confusion comes from the "even if", to me that means pistols can be shot "even if" I am with 1" of an enemy unit (except that if I am I must shoot the closest enemy unit) "even if" other friendly units are within 1" of the same enemy unit.

It doesn't say I can only shoot if I am within 1" of the same unit, it says I can "even if".

You are trying to take each statement as an individual unit, which you can't, because the second sentence is only allowed if the circumstances of the first are met.

 

In the situation you are describing, you don't meet the circumstances of the first sentence at all, because the rule for Pistols isn't invoked (the exception to the standard target selection rule is unused) - you can fire because you are outside 1" of an enemy unit, therefore normal target selection rules apply.

 

Edit: :ph34r: by Kallas again!

[McElMcNinja]

The circumstance is that I am shooting a pistol at an enemy unit, even if I am within 1" to an enemy unit.

Now if I am within 1" of an enemy I must target the closest enemy unit.

In such a circumstance (me shooting a pistol that must target the closest enemy unit if I am within 1" of an enemy unit) I can fire even if a friendly unit is within 1" of the same enemy unit I am targeting.

Edited January 28, 2018 by McElMcNinja

[Kallas]

That's not the circumstance, because the rule is referencing itself.

 

A model can fire a Pistol if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit but it must target the closest enemy unit. In such circumstances, the model can fire it's Pistol even if other friendly units are within 1" of the same enemy unit.

 

"In such circumstances" is referring to the Pistol rules, because it's dealing with exceptions to the base rules, which explicitly deny you the ability to shoot at units within 1" of friendly units.

[Bryan Blaire]

The circumstance is that I am shooting a pistol at an enemy unit.

Now if I am within 1" of an enemy unit I can still shoot as long as I target the closest enemy unit.

In such a circumstance (me shooting a pistol that must target the closest enemy unit if I am within 1" of an enemy unit) I can fire even if a friendly unit is within 1" of the same enemy unit I am targeting.

Incorrect - you are not following the logic path dictated by the rules and are assuming that an exception provided by meeting a requirement in an exception is universally applied by the Pistol rule -even if not meeting the initial exception, which we know is not true due to the way it is written:

 

Thing is, the "in such circumstances" must be satisfied for you to use the end of that sentence. If that is not satisfied, then you have to use the standard targeting rules, which say you can't target an enemy unit if it is within 1" of a friendly unit, because you can't use the second half of the sentence.

 

The rule is effectively written backward.

 

Let's take the situation from the front and work through the logic:

 

Your Typhus is 3" away from the enemy unit. May he shoot his pistol?

 

Shooting rules:

1. Select unit to shoot with - can't shoot if it Advanced, Fell Back or is within 1" of an enemy unit.

This step is satisfied for Typhus, so he can shoot.

 

2. Pick a target - chosen target must be visible. “Models cannot target enemy units that “are within 1" of friendly models”

Dang, this step is not satisfied for Typhus, as the chosen target is within 1" of the friendly Poxwalkers.

 

So now we have to move to the Pistol rules to see if it provides an exemption from this rule.

"Pistol: A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit, but it must target the closest enemy unit”

Okay, this circumstance doesn't apply, because there are no enemy units within 1" to trigger the "even if" statement.

 

"In such circumstances, the model can shoot its Pistol even if other friendly units are within 1" of the same enemy unit."

There are no such circumstances, because the Model doesn't meet the previous statement necessary, therefore the rest of the sentence does not apply.

 

Since the rules for the Pistol are not triggered, the shooting unit must fall back to the standard rules for targeting a unit. We already went through those and know that Typhus is not allowed to fire at the engaged unit.

 

And :ph34r: by Kallas.

Honestly, if you persist in not following this logic, then in your games, you will either need to concede the game and stop playing, or roll off with your opponent. In the meantime, you need to write in to the FAQ folks to ask your question. This argument has become circular.

[Dam13n]

Indeed, furthering the already cyclical nature of this argument will result in thread termination.

[Claws and Effect]

I read the pistol rules as being intended to allow models equipped with them to shoot at a unit they are locked in combat with.

 

I'll use this example:

 

Say you have a 5 man unit of Vanguard Veterans that are locked in combat with a Helbrute (T7). It is your turn.

 

Your Vanguard are equipped as follows: 2 TH/SS, 3 plasma pistol/chainsword.

 

In the previous turn's fight phase the Helbrute killed the hammer guys because their storm shields were used to attempt to tank the wounds. It took 3 wounds in return from one of the hammers.

 

The chainswords probably will not kill the Helbrute in your fight phase this turn. But overcharged plasma pistols might.

 

So you opt to fire your overcharged pistols into the Helbrute in your shooting phase. Say 2 of them get through. Now you have a Helbrute looking at eating 9 chainsword attacks with only 1 wound left. That might actually kill it, but 9 chainsword attacks probably would not have killed it with 5 wounds left.

 

That's what the pistol rules are written to allow. Not to allow attacks against a unit that cannot attack back. Since Typhus was not in melee range of the unit that was already locked in combat, allowing him to shoot them with impunity would not be fair. If he were within 1" of them they could at least fight back during their fight phase.

 

If the pistol rules worked the way you believe they do, you would see a ton of abuse. People would just lock a tough unit in combat with one of their chaff units and have their plasma pistol guys shoot them down with no return fire possible. Not at all fair.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Claws and Effect