Mid range domination

[Joukernaut]

Hi there fellow ultra's

 

After nearly three years of playing ultramarines I've grown fond of a certain play style.

I like to dominate the middle of the board, be up in the enemies face and rapid-fire the crap out of them.

I've started the search for units that excel in midfield or units that facilitate midfield battle.

I would like to hear from you guys what units you have found to excel at either fighting in midfield or supporting midfield and why. If you could add a short tactica that would be awesome!!

I limit myself to playing with painted models only, so this could change my painting to-do-list drastically.

 

I'll start with my own personal favourites!

• Captain with jump pack, thunderhammer and shield eternal. This dude can land anywhere needed, provides rerolls and absolutely smashes face when given the right target and buffs. He's hard to shift due to the shield as well.
• Lieutenant with jump pack, double lightning claws. Again, can land anywhere to provide his buff and pairs very well with the captain.
• Librarian with jump pack. (spotting a them here?) When teamed up with the cap and Lt this is a killer team. the libby disables invulnerable saves and buffs the cap with Fury of the Ancients. Hits decent himself as well when buffed by the cap and Lt. These three can also significantly buff a key shooting unit when needed.
• Assault centurions, twin flamers and hurricane bolters. The amount of firepower these guys bring to bear is simply amazing. its a challenge to get them into the right place unharmed, but when you do, oh boy do they deliver. After clearing hordes, they pack a mean punch wielding those siege drills.
• Tactical squad. My personal favourite unit in the game. I love their flexibility and ability to handle every threat when kitted out to do so. I like melta/combi-melta in a twin assault cannon razorback as well as two plasma/combi-plasma squads in a pod.
• Thunderfire cannon. This one disappointed me the first couple of games i fielded it. Its firepower is mediocre at best. But......tremor shells is just amazing. halving all movement of a key unit can win you games. It negates charges, keeps units from scoring, keeps fleeing units within rapid fire range, and my personal favourite; blocking important units by slowing the screening unit in front of it. Absolutely amazing.
• Terminators. Maybe not the best, but these are my favourite looking models in the space marine range. A unit of 5 strombolters can screen your jump pack characters, while clearing a screening unit with their 40 stromboltershots, retooling 1's to hit and wound.

Your turn! Looking forward to hear from you guys.

 

[Tamiel]

Disclaimer: The setting I play at is not highly competitive or tournament level.

So I've recently been preaching a particular strategy that I really hope catches on. It's simple, and yet I don't hear about it quite so much.

 

If you can rapid-fire a bunch of tactical marines and follow it up with a charge, anything on the receiving end of that will take quite a bit of damage, and then have to deal with marines in its face. So long as what you're targeting is roughly within the same realm of points as the tactical marines, it turns out well. Having them do this to a 10man terminator squad or a landraider might not work, but against anything that is sort of within the same points range as a tactical squad, you get some really good damage output.

 

I mean, you have to use common sense and not charge something like enemy honour guard / lynchguard / banshees ect. But against most infantry, it works well.

And for me the best way to make this work has been the rhino + 10man tac squad combo (you can also put two 5man squads in there if you want more plasmashots). This strategy even works pretty well without any upgrades on the 10man squad at all. What you do is:

1. Charge the rhino into the enemy squad. (Use smoke launcher to keep your rhino alive until then).
2. Tie up enemy squad with your rhino in melee for one turn.
3. Next turn, your tac marines disembark from the rhino.
4. As soon as the marines have left the rhino, the rhino falls back out of melee.

5. Marines rapid fire into the enemy squad (since the rhino fell back, the enemy is no longer in melee and can be shot at).
6. Marines charge in after rapid firing is over.

From a 10man marine squad, you get 20 S4 shots, and 11 S4 melee hits. That's a total of 31 S4 hits. 32 if you give your sgt a chainsword.

What's even more important than the 32 S4 hits is that you got 10 tactical marines that are tying up whatever the enemy squad is. They're basically screwed in the long run, as your tac marines will slowly punch them to death. Even if you're fighting regular ork boys, after 32 S4 hits, their squad will be so crippled that you will slowly clean them up in melee. And if they stay in melee, you have your pistols on top of your punching.

This won't outright kill the enemy squad, but slowly you will come out victorious in that squad v squad battle. The initial rapid fire + charge combo gives you a huge lead in the ensuing melee fight.
 

Your enemy's only option is to have another squad come in to help them out. Even if they do that, it still leaves you in a good spot because your enemy now has to bring two units to take care of a 10man tactical squad. This can help the rest of your army, and you can take advantage of it in clever ways. Setting up traps, forcing the enemy's hand, taking the enemy's focus off of something. A 10man tactical squad is cheap for how much of an impact it can make in these clever ways.

And if they don't have another squad to come in and help them? You either slowly but surely punch them to death and eventually win (even against ork boys, thanks to your initial advantage) or they try to fall back and you rapidfire+charge them again. 

On a final note: You can also do this with a 5man squad and a razorback, but the razorback really doesn't want to be in melee (using your transport to tie up the enemy in melee both helps you get closer and keeps you safe from their shooting). The Rhino gives you more bang for your buck if you use it as I've outlined in the strategy. Also, 5 tac marines can do well, but they just can't take care of, say, 10 necron warriors, or 10 CSM, or 20 ork boys in the same way that a 10man tac squad can. Especially when you're deep in there, in melee after rapid firing, you really want more than just 5 guys.

So I think the 5man squad with the razorback favours a more traditional style of play where you sit back and use the special weapons. Wheras the 10 tacs in a rhino favour a more aggressive and close range approach.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Tamiel

[Joukernaut]

Thanks Tamiel for the in-depth tactica!

 

I'm not in a competitive environment most of the time either. I only occasionally attend a semi-competitive tourney.

I've never really considered a barebones 10 man squad in 8th because of command points and morale.

I do use the rapid-fire and charge tactic quite often tbh, especially with ultramarines chapter tactics.

I'll be sure to give the barebones 10 man squad a try (maybe 1 special  ).

I've got three strormbolter/chainsword sergeants on my hobby desk, waiting for paint.

They would probably suit this tactic very well.

[Toxichobbit]

While it's a good tactic with Tactical Marines, I think it'd be even better with Sternguard. For 50 more points you're getting an extra -2 AP on the shooting, an extra 10 attacks in melee and the ability to gain +1 to your wound rolls with Masterful Marksmen, albeit at the loss of full re-rolls from Scions of Guilliman. Wounding T5-7 on a 4+ with -2 AP allows the Sternguard to engage tougher targets and the 15" rapid fire allows them to position to shoot one unit and assault a different one (cos lets face it, most things you are shooting at with +1 to wound and -2 AP you don't want to assault).

 

It's not the cheap (for Marines) chaff clearing that Tactical Marines provide, but it's equally valid in different situations.

[Joukernaut]

Thanks for the very interesting thoughts toxichobbit. I forgot sternguard had a better rapid-fire range than tacticals.

This would also mean i could drop them 14 inch from a melee target, hit the target with the tremor shells so they would not be able to charge the sternguard, It would probably even mean they wouldn't be able to charge them the next turn.

and like you said, they could even try to charge a different unit after shooting.

I should definitely look into kit bashing a unit of sternguard, because I would love to try this .

[Kallas]

And if they don't have another squad to come in and help them? You either slowly but surely punch them to death and eventually win (even against ork boys, thanks to your initial advantage) or they try to fall back and you rapidfire+charge them again.

While I do really like the idea overall, the whole shoot-charge cycle doesn't work against equivalent points of Orks - Rhino (2x Storm Bolters), 9 Bolters and a Storm Bolter (for 30 shots, plus 12 in melee) kills maybe 12 of those Boys. In return this 18 Boy will happily slaughter 8 Tacticals.

 

The idea is a good one, but it does have to have some thought behind it. You can't ram the block into Khorne Berserkers, Ork Boys, Genestealers, etc. It really works by bullying other troops units, much cheaper units or isolated units like Devastators or Assault Marines (ironically, but that's because AM are a huge trash fire).

[Tamiel]

 

And if they don't have another squad to come in and help them? You either slowly but surely punch them to death and eventually win (even against ork boys, thanks to your initial advantage) or they try to fall back and you rapidfire+charge them again.

While I do really like the idea overall, the whole shoot-charge cycle doesn't work against equivalent points of Orks - Rhino (2x Storm Bolters), 9 Bolters and a Storm Bolter (for 30 shots, plus 12 in melee) kills maybe 12 of those Boys. In return this 18 Boy will happily slaughter 8 Tacticals.

 

The idea is a good one, but it does have to have some thought behind it. You can't ram the block into Khorne Berserkers, Ork Boys, Genestealers, etc. It really works by bullying other troops units, much cheaper units or isolated units like Devastators or Assault Marines (ironically, but that's because AM are a huge trash fire).

 

The orks might lose even more thanks to morale. If they can pass the 12 morale, then I think they would have to pay more for whatever it is that lets them pass. But yeah, you can't just use it as a one size fits all strategy. Against troops of a majority of other armies it works pretty well though.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Tamiel

[Kallas]

Well, considering that you were talking about Rapid Fire then Charge, the above is detailing their response pre-Morale (ie, your Fight Phase).

 

If you leave off the charge, the Tacticals + Rhino kill about 8/9, so they won't lose any to Morale from just that (and will absolutely mulch the Tacticals afterwards).

 

Of course, when facing units such as that one would simply not use the same tactics, I am merely advising against using said tactic when the odds are against it :) It's definitely an interesting tactic, and one I'm looking forward to trying out myself!

[Tamiel]

Well, considering that you were talking about Rapid Fire then Charge, the above is detailing their response pre-Morale (ie, your Fight Phase).

 

If you leave off the charge, the Tacticals + Rhino kill about 8/9, so they won't lose any to Morale from just that (and will absolutely mulch the Tacticals afterwards).

 

Of course, when facing units such as that one would simply not use the same tactics, I am merely advising against using said tactic when the odds are against it It's definitely an interesting tactic, and one I'm looking forward to trying out myself!

Best of luck. It's a tactic that isn't flashy or quick, but it pays off slowly over time. It's really subtle because the tac marines take a long time to finish off their target, which might lead you to think they aren't doing anything once the melee starts, but they are slowly winning each combat phase with favourable trades. If you're having unfavourable trades in melee, or if the enemy falls back and brings in reinforcements, that's when you might need to change tactics.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Tamiel

[Tadoule Lake Monster]

 

The idea is a good one, but it does have to have some thought behind it. You can't ram the block into Khorne Berserkers, Ork Boys, Genestealers, etc. It really works by bullying other troops units, much cheaper units or isolated units like Devastators or Assault Marines (ironically, but that's because AM are a huge trash fire).

 

 

Kallas, the AM trash fire, can you explain? Is it just AM that are trash, or do you feel Vanguard end up in this fire as well? I am new to the hobby and just wanted some clarification, as I was planning to add some Vanguard and Sternguard to my army at some point.

[Kallas]

 

 

 

The idea is a good one, but it does have to have some thought behind it. You can't ram the block into Khorne Berserkers, Ork Boys, Genestealers, etc. It really works by bullying other troops units, much cheaper units or isolated units like Devastators or Assault Marines (ironically, but that's because AM are a huge trash fire).

 

Kallas, the AM trash fire, can you explain? Is it just AM that are trash, or do you feel Vanguard end up in this fire as well? I am new to the hobby and just wanted some clarification, as I was planning to add some Vanguard and Sternguard to my army at some point.

It's mostly because Assault Marines are just too expensive and bring basically nothing over Vanguard.

 

Assault Marines have only three advantages over Vanguard (and Vanguard are ok):

- they are marginally cheaper (and it's 9.99 times out of 10 worth the upgrade to Vanguard)

- they can bring Flamers which Vanguard can't (and Plasma/Melta if they're Blood Angels) which is only somewhat useful as Flamers aren't particularly amazing

- they are Fast Attack instead of Elites, which is somewhat useless since you can bring plenty of Elites between Vanguard/Battalion Detachments.

 

That's the jist of it. Always go Vanguard, if you're tossing up between them.

[Ishagu]

Assault Marines are rubbish, useless even.

 

A squad of Bolter Inceptors is only a few points more, far superior in every way.

[crazyterran]

Assault marines are good for that smug sense of superiority ones gets from having a fluffy list? :p

[Prot]

After the past few codexes my mind set and preferences have changed for Ultra's. (assuming no Guilliman)

 

I felt confident in the mid range, and had that 'shooty' block going. I tried being aggressive, but the army simply could play better with aura support, overlapping lines, and some speed in the form of flyers (which eventually took a nerf).

 

Fast forward to now, and I think Dark Angels own the midrange, not only for effectiveness, but cost. To execute Azrael Helblaster Fortress is pretty easy. It's exceptionally survivable, and in my games against it I would say the UM's are strongly outmatched here. I would go so far to say that if you take two equally matched generals, the DA player should win 9/10 times in the mid range arena.

 

So I've changed my focus to aggression. BUT it has to be flexible enough to know when to change gears. (IE if you have 50 Genestealers coming at you, aggression probably is just going to have you absorbed into the Hive mind quicker. Same goes for 180+ Ork lists.)

[Tadoule Lake Monster]

Thanks for the clarifications on AM, guys. Still trying to understand the meta of the game. I have a list made, but since I don't own most of the models yet, it can change as I read/see new ideas and opinions on what is better.

[Joukernaut]

@ Prot, what is your interpretation on aggression and how do you execute it?

I might look into your advice and try it myself. I love midfield and despise gun line, but everything else is still fair game.

I can probably work out a combination since my meta is usually fluffy more than competitive.

That, and I'm determined to develop my play style further to be both effective and fun to play.

I'm not too bothered with cost effectiveness like most players are.

[Prot]

Well I'm still really exploring this. I'd hate to give any false, truly untested advice at this point. What I have tried is mixed results because I insist on handcuffing myself with Primaris. :)

[Ishagu]

Thanks for the clarifications on AM, guys. Still trying to understand the meta of the game. I have a list made, but since I don't own most of the models yet, it can change as I read/see new ideas and opinions on what is better.

Don't concern yourself too much with the meta or how you can dominate it.

The game is fluid at the moment. Units are re-balanced often. At the moment Eldar are kings, but expect major nerfs to hit them in the coming months as GW are fully aware of which units are performing over or under their intended levels.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Assault Marines are rubbish, useless even.

 

A squad of Bolter Inceptors is only a few points more, far superior in every way.

 

QFT