8th Edition and Templars

[Schlitzaf]

Inspired by discussions in Radioactive Toy Threads, and various IVO Lists. And some interesting observations. As well as kinda how has 8th been treating us Thread.

 

More an aside observation than anything, but for first time in two editions we ‘legit’ (for Degrees of legit represented) finally at tournament. Or well specifically we represented as Scout Units in Marine Armies for access to our Denial Strategem.

 

That aside, how has 8th been treating us overall today? I will say our Chapter Tactics have officially grown on me. The amount of times I have personally failed charges, within the 6-8 range because 1 or 2, and then made it on reroll is surprisingly high.

 

I feel like my Crusader Squads aren’t completely papermache this edition. As while Plasma exists, regular Weaponry especially former AP -2 I find bounces off me. And the fact my Neo’s get Save’s vs formerly AP 4 (Autocannons and Heavy Bolters) makes them far more durable. I am enjoying mixed Primaris/Astartes. If no other reason Intercessors, Interceptors and Reivars finally given me a toy to play with for first time sense 5th Edition.

 

Our unique relic is awesome. The Champion feels like an actual combat character. I go go on. But overall for some of this editions faults it’s honestly first time sense 5th I enjoyed playing.

 

Furthermore I honestly feel like our Chapter Tactic is actually relavent. Previously 6th-7th I basically ignored our tactics. While Crusader and AdWill were nice, Crusader especially I miss (if we got a second addition to our trait, I want it be 2d6 taking highest for run. If I had to be honest). But the other tactic? Rerolls in Challenge and Rage/Counter Situationally? Meh. Reroll charging actually comes up and is useful.

 

And I have yet to play an army that is unbearable to play against. Every game I can I enjoyed. 100%. Some more than others. I guess this turned into, why I love 8th. But I suppose for me, as a Black Templar, my army feels more like Templar Army again. And 8th feels like I am playing a game again.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[Brother Talarian]

How do you/others deal with mortarion?

He is a monster in CC and if tough to crack via shooting.

 

I've tried a list with dozens of lascannons, re-rolls to hit, and still struggled to kill him. a) this wasn't too fun for me b) the rest of my army doesn't do much.

 

Besides that my 8th games have been a blast and relatively close faught.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Brother Talarian

[Firepower]

I've had four games of 8th edition, and one of them was fun.  The fun one was against a Guard tank army, and was fun largely because of some bizarre events, and a fist fight between Bullgryns, an Ironclad, Helbrecht and his mates.  Every other game has been an exercise in frustration, sour dice, and distaste for 8th's rules and meta.  My games against Genestealers and a horde IG were never going to go well.  There's nothing to be done about Smite spam from the former and I can't deal out nearly enough damage to put a dent in the latter, even when dice are cooperating. 

 

Actually, the Genestealer game became fun because of the utterly ass backwards way my dice behaved towards the end, with the last 2 surviving Templars on the board making an 11" charge to their deaths, after an utter storm of 1's and 2's that seemed to cover every side of my dice.  My opponent was laughing his head off while I screamed "Now?!  Seriously, now you know how your feet work?!"

 

The long and short of it is that Templars still aren't good in melee, any more so than everyone else in C:SM, and being able to simply walk away from a combat means what little they do manage to accomplish in one round of fighting is traded for a face full of hot lead/laser/grubbly things on my opponent's turn.  Any good melee punch up I've had occurred because my opponent wanted it to.  If my Templars can't stabby stab properly, they don't feel like Templars.  A Codex that gives us very little to work with and a rule set that hamstrings what we do have means that's a ruthlessly uphill struggle for me to tangle with.

 

Oh, and never use borrowed dice.  They.  Are.  Evil.

 

But I will agree that our Relic is awesome.  That Fancy Hat Biker Marshal is currently trying to fit himself into every list that I write.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Firepower

[JAG Templar]

How do you/others deal with mortarion?

He is a monster in CC and if tough to crack via shooting.

 

I've tried a list with dozens of lascannons, re-rolls to hit, and still struggled to kill him. a) this wasn't too fun for me b) the rest of my army doesn't do much.

 

Besides that my 8th games have been a blast and relatively close faught.

I fight Mortarian quite regularly and never had too many issues with him but I do have to pretty much devote the first two turns of the game to him (he has been First Blood in one of our games, which was quite funny).

 

Rule number one: never ever let Morty touch your stuff. Everything he touches dies.

 

So I hang back and shoot everything I’ve got. Lascannons, autocannons are my primary weapons of choice. Assault Cannons can be effective but risky due to range constraints. His invuln and Disgustingly Resilient can be a real pain but I can normally get him down to single digit wounds in one turn.

 

As soon as he is close enough to the gun line/ castle, something hard hitting must break the line and charge him. My preference is Celestine but I know not everyone is comfortable using her in a Templar army. Helbrecht and Emperors Champion in tandem have done good work in the past, as has an Ironclad/ Ven dread. If he doesn’t die in that combat then queue up another heavy hitter.

 

If I haven’t killed him by then I’m normally over run with Poxwalkers and other random things. Never lost a game against DG but I’ve been really lucky with games ending on points just as I was about to be tabled.

 

Hope that helps.

[Brother Talarian]

Thanks JAG, what do your lists consist of? How many points?

 

My rolling but be horrible. I've tried the shoot everything at him first two turns and only managed to dent him... he can also make a turn 1 charge without too much difficulty. Turn 2 guaranteed if castelling.

[Marshal_von_Speer]

Up to now, 8th ed has been a challenge for me (and challenge is a good thing). While I've won nearly every game in 7th, I've lost half of my games in 8th so far. Pretty much all of my losses tracked back to the lack of psychic defense and me failing to fully adapt to the new edition. In general I'm very happy with 8th ed, even though I hoped for some more love for our chapter.

 

I'm also very eager to hear some more tips on how to deal with the Death Guard. One of my mates just bouhgt himself a DG Army including Morty. From what I've seen from battle reports so far they truly are disgustingly resilient!

[JAG Templar]

Thanks JAG, what do your lists consist of? How many points?

 

My rolling but be horrible. I've tried the shoot everything at him first two turns and only managed to dent him... he can also make a turn 1 charge without too much difficulty. Turn 2 guaranteed if castelling.

Sure. First of all I’m talking about 2000 point games. I genuinely don’t think I could put him down in 1500. Also I’ll talk about pre and post Chapter Approved because the changes have had a big impact on how I view Templars in 8th.

 

Pre Chapter Approved I would have a list consisting of 3 parts.

 

Battalion led by Helbrecht and a FW Chaplain Dread with twin lascannons. 3 small Crusader squads 2 with lascannons, 1 heavy bolter/ plasma gun, and 3 (or two if Celestine taken) razorbacks. Mixture of twin las and assault cannon.

 

Imperium vanguard det led by Celestine ( if I could afford her) or a cheap Inquisitor. 3 assassins, mix of Eversor and culexus.

 

Flyer det. Storm raven and 2 Talons (more las and assault cannons!)

 

First few turns everything stayed In Helbrecht’s reroll range and then flyers scatter out of Morty charge range when he gets close.

 

After Chapter Approved this list increased to about 2100 points so no good anymore!

Edited January 31, 2018 by JAG Templar

[JAG Templar]

Post Chapter Approved my thoughts are as follows:

 

GW made a points correction based on how successful Ultramarines + Guilliman had been since the Space Marine codex came out. That ‘tax’ was also applied to all Chapters including us Templars. So we are paying the Gully tax without receiving the Gully benefits.

 

This has resulted in me having two approaches to 40k. At home, against friends I play fluffy Templars. Ladder matches, anything competitive, I play ‘Black Ultramarines’. I understand that not everyone will be keen to compromise like this but there is no way I would survive in my very competitive meta with Guard, Eldar etc. if I didn’t.

 

The timing of the 30k Dorn model is perfect as I will use him as a counts as Guilliman in 40k. Very nearly bought Sigismund for this purpose yesterday.

 

Happy to share what I think is a good Space Marine list but it certainly won’t play like a Templar list, because it isn’t.

[Brother Christopher]

Yes, please. Do share!

[JAG Templar]

So this is a WIP list that I would class as semi-competitive, there are some indulgent choices like the Repulsor that would have to make way if it was looking to extract as much value for points as possible.

 

Battalion

Primaris Captain/ Gravis if I can fit it in.

Techmarine

 

Scouts - Sniper x 5

Scouts - Sniper x 5

Intercessors x 5

 

Assault Cannon Razorback x 2

Repulsor with twin lascannons and Gatling for turret

 

Ven dread with lascannons and auto cannons x2 (stole this idea from 3++, Index build and still legal)

 

Vanguard Detachment

Tempestus Prime - plasma pistol

Scions command squad - plasma gun x 4

Eversor

Culexus

 

Finally, Guilliman

 

I don’t want to hijack this thread, which is about Templars not general Space Marine tactics but this is what I would consider viable.

Edited February 1, 2018 by JAG Templar

[Firepower]

About half this thread is off topic, JAG.  Can't hijack a train with no conductor :lol:

[redmapa]

Interesting, Im guessing you have the Vanguard to simply force your opponent to deploy with you giving any info on your deployment and that Guilliman and his firebase of Razorbacks are really good enough to be the punch of your whole list, interesting. I think the challenge now would be to take that idea and try to Templar-ize it a bit, you will obviously lose some teeth but maybe we can reach a nice compromise between Templars and semi-competitive, perhaps something like MSU Crusader squads in Razorbacks and then deep striking units to act as screens for your other elements of your army because as far as Im concerned the way to succeed in casual enviroment while staying true to the Templar way is by rushing your enemy with Rhinos and deep strike units ASAP to eat incoming fire and simply overwhelm the enemy lines, something will reach them and something will break them eventually.

 

For me this thread is very nice to have, it doesnt really need a specific topic and should work more as a brainstorm and what YOU think makes Templars work in this edition, no more problems, no more whining, only solutions.

Edited February 1, 2018 by redmapa

[SydonianDragoon404]

I ran across this list on dakka dakka a while back, guy said he ran Templars CTs and did fairly well at a local tournament. Problem is, this was pre Chapter Approved so this list is probably not possible any more. 
 

HQ 
Captain on bike, PF/SS 
Captain with JP, TH/SS 
LT Stormbolter 

Troops 
Crusaders x5, Plas gun, Plas can, combi-plas 
-DT- Razorback, TLAC, SB, HKM 
Crusaders x5, Plas gun, Plas can, combi-plas 
-DT- Razorback, TLAC, SB, HKM 
Crusaders x5, Flamer, combi-flamer 
-DT- Razorback, TLAC, SB, HKM 
Scouts x5 
Scouts x5 
Scouts x5 

Elite 
Company Vet x2, SBx2 
Company Vet x2. SBx2 
Company Vet x2, SBx2 
-DT- Razorback, TLAC, SB, HKM 


Fast 
Tarantula, TLHB 
Tarantula, TLHB 
Tarantula, TLHB 

Heavy 
Predator, AC/LC/HKM 
Predator, AC/LC/HKM 
Predator, AC/LC/HKM

 

 

I'm having to start experimenting lately. Ever since Chapter approved came out I've had a steady record of 1 win and nothing but losses, and my 1 win was largely due to my opponent being entirely inexperienced with what a Repulsor is capable of in terms of firepower. He didn't make the same mistake twice. Not a reliable tactic by any means. 

I've started playing my Mechanicus army more lately because my local meta is starting to get more and more competitive and power-gamey. Just the other weekend I played against someone deep striking both Rotigus and Mortarion using the Daemon codex stratagem. I just thought to myself "If I had brought my entire Templar collection, I have literally nothing in my arsenal that could compete with that unless my opponent were to just completely whiff every single dice roll". So, like back in 7th edition, I am now in a position where Templars are my casual army for private games, and the Mechanicus come out to play when my opponent takes the gloves off. I can't even begin to fathom or brainstorm something that feels like it would have a remote chance against some of the absolutely disgustingly OP stuff I see on the table at the moment. Eldar, Imperial Guard, in particular come to mind. 

 

I had bit of a depressing thought recently. Adeptus Mechanicus, quintessentially a shooting army to most, maybe a hybrid army to some, have better close combat units than we do.

Think about this. How badly would our faction love to have a unit that has a 5+ invuln, a 5+ ignore damage, 2 attacks each with a weapon that is strength 5, ap -2, D3 damage per model, that deals mortal wounds to the enemy on a 6 when they charge in per model in the unit, AND that deals D3 mortal wounds on a wound roll of 6+ in close combat, AND when they wipe a unit in CC they gain a 3+ invulnerable save.

 

Think about those rules. Think about how badly any templar player would love a unit with rules like that. I just described Fulgurite Electro Priests. Sure Mechanicus don't have transports for them, but they have other delivery methods with stratagems, and once the forge world book comes out they will have access to a transport. 

 

Oh hey but it gets better! Think about having a vehicle, a walker, like a stripped down dreadnought scout walker type thing that is movement 10, 4+ save, Toughness 6, 3 attacks, -1 to hit in shooting from 12'' away or more, and its weapon smacked at strength 8, -1 AP, 2 damage, and rolling a 6 to hit counts as 3 hits. AND, you can use a stratagem to get that effect to go off on a 4+, AND you can take these vehicles in squadrons! And they're less than 70 points! 

 

It hurts brothers. It hurts my soul. 

[JAG Templar]

Interesting, Im guessing you have the Vanguard to simply force your opponent to deploy with you giving any info on your deployment and that Guilliman and his firebase of Razorbacks are really good enough to be the punch of your whole list, interesting.

The units in the Vanguard detachment do some work on the table as well. Scions are a cheap Sternguard for me, and the assassins have been putting in good work since 8th came out.

 

There is a Repulsor and 2 shooty venerable dreads to help the razorbacks. We shall see if that’s enough guns or not, I guess.

[Marshal Wolfhart]

I remain convinced, to build a truly competitive list (that is so much cheese, it drips off the paper) you either need to be ultrmarines and bring Uncle Bob in a shooting gallery or ally in guard. The more of the latter the more powerful. It is actually what keeps me from painting more of my guard to build the combined force i had once envisioned (back in 4th, when Apocalypse came out   ), because that would be too cheesy for the games i tend to play, and if I want to really beat some big mouth, i bring my knife-ears anyway...

Not saying we can't build solid, strong lists as pure templars, but it's not efficient enough to be top dog, assuming average dice rolling.

 

Whenever i think of a power gamey list for templars, my first go to is a battalion of three crusader squads with combi/plasma, lascannon, Marshal and Castellan with combiplasma+poweraxe each, and a Company Ancient with combiplasma, as well as three Razorbacks with assault cannons. Obviously you wanna cuddle everything around the characters if the mission allows. That takes close to a thousand points and is a solid all around firing base.

[JAG Templar]

 

I've started playing my Mechanicus army more lately because my local meta is starting to get more and more competitive and power-gamey. Just the other weekend I played against someone deep striking both Rotigus and Mortarion using the Daemon codex stratagem. 

 

 

Luckily deep striking Daemon Primarchs has been FAQ'd out. You were just unfortunately caught between the Codex release and the FAQ

[Schlitzaf]

Honestly, it comes to melee we aren’t bad off. Our Crusader Squads are Solid Units. (I could sit here and regale everyone with the math) But competitively? I’d need to spend some tinkering. Black Templar Army has two real Options, MSU Razor Spam, replacing Gulliman with Heavies on Squad. And said Squads can actually Assault. HeavyBolter Razor + Crusader Squad w/HvyBolter/Plasma/Combi Plasma. Is 190 Points. 6 of those. 1140. Champion and two Castallens w/ Packs, 1371 then a Marshall with Sword&Pistol+Pack (and Helm). Is 1467.

 

You have 530ish Points left for something fun. Perhaps 4 Dreadnoughts with TwinHvy or Two Dreadnought with Assault, Two Reivar and TehcMarine. Or go for 2nd Marshall w/ PowAx&Pack, Three Reivars and 1 Interceptor Squad. The second Variant is my personal favorite. Is a BT Tide. 2-3 Tide Squads 0-2 Intercessors, + Marshall, Castallen, Champion and Cenos. Which is give or take 800 Points. Then you throw in support elements. I’d say those should look at around 5ish Deep Striking Units. (Reivars, Terminators, Dreads Via Forge Drop Pod, and Cheap Assault Marines). Once those support elements are accounted for. You have about 400-500 Points left. (Which is why I prefer Tide. Tide gives you more room for fill units).

[JAG Templar]

Is there anything that we can take (and I’m happy to utilise any tools at the Imperium’s disposal) that can generate more attacks?

 

I’m talking about something like the way Guard can use Ministorum Priests. I know we have a few +1 attacks on hit rolls of 6 but that doesn’t seem reliable enough to me.

 

In my experience, Rhinos rushing up with lots of choppy Crusaders have absolutely no problems getting into combat but don’t hit hard enough once they are there. I think for Strength 4, 0 AP attacks to be effective there needs to be a lot of them. Ork boys and Blood Angels seem to be success stories in this area.

[Firepower]

In my experience, Rhinos rushing up with lots of choppy Crusaders have absolutely no problems getting into combat but don’t hit hard enough once they are there.

 

Pretty much this.  Mathammer be damned, my Crusaders have never slaughtered anything I've thrown them at.  They're really relegated to the status of battlefield janitors now, cleaning up whats left after the shooting has done almost all of the work.

 

Anyway, other than the extra attacks on 6's, no, I can't think of anything to add more dice.  But I won't begrudge the Blood Angels being better at assault than we are, either.  I begrudge 8th for creating a structure that makes +1 attack a total game changer.

[Schlitzaf]

The Custodes have a +1 Attack Imperium Banner. But it’s all honestly, while having more attack generation would be nice, we do naturally generate quite a bit. It’s just our 10 Man Rhino Squads, are pretty meh in that regard (15 Attacks + 3 PowSword Attacks. 8 Pistols + 2 Special Weapons). Which for context a Tactical Squad is 9 Attacks + 2 PowSword (+14 Bolters, 2 Special and 1 Heavy). Essentially the difference is 2 Marines or 4 Attacks. Our tide squads, is where we really start having large attacks (+3 Men) gives 21 Attacks in melees and means we are effectively putting out two Tactical Squads worth of attack or 2/3 of a Marine Dead.

 

It sounds weird, 10 Man Crusaders are just not melee capable, despite only the difference of 3-4 models with the tide squad. The additional model count means that it has more wounds till it reaches point of negligible (once a Squad in 5-6 Men, it will start dying to chaff or left over shots. It’s long term battlefield effectiveness is marginal). Like for your mech’ing up. I really suggest trying out a tide list.

 

Also another argument in favor of tide. 4 more guys, is 48 Points. That is 2/3 the cost of the Rhino. Taking 2 14 Man Tides over 2 10 Man Rhino, is the an Intercessors Squad Cheaper. I know it seems backwards. All I can say here is trust me. But otherwise answer is Custodes

[Firepower]

The issue with doing that Tide math is that it assumes a 13 man squad actually gets across the table and into combat with 13 men alive.  That's typically only true if they take a transport, and considering that means either a Raven or an LRC, the point efficiency math goes straight to hell in a hand basket.  And even then, simple overwatch is likely to knock a few out before they even get to swing.

 

I'm not about to start building a bunch of shooty Crusaders, mind you, but I am building a lot of units that you can actually count on to do some damage in a melee.  Namely, Vanguard and Terminators.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Firepower

[Brother Talarian]

The Custodes have a +1 Attack Imperium Banner. But it’s all honestly, while having more attack generation would be nice, we do naturally generate quite a bit. It’s just our 10 Man Rhino Squads, are pretty meh in that regard (15 Attacks + 3 PowSword Attacks. 8 Pistols + 2 Special Weapons). Which for context a Tactical Squad is 9 Attacks + 2 PowSword (+14 Bolters, 2 Special and 1 Heavy). Essentially the difference is 2 Marines or 4 Attacks. Our tide squads, is where we really start having large attacks (+3 Men) gives 21 Attacks in melees and means we are effectively putting out two Tactical Squads worth of attack or 2/3 of a Marine Dead.

 

Unfortunately they banner for +1 attack only works ok custodes. They do however have a banner for a 5++ save for imperium

Infantry which would work wonderfully with a tide list.

 

@Firepower

I agree, VV and termies seem to be the best and most effective melee options we have. The 9" charge is more likely to make it than most because of our CT. Otherwise get them in some terrain And get them to charge next turn.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Brother Talarian

[Schlitzaf]

I mean while not wrong, it’s why you need to support the tide with deep strikers and distraction carnifexes, and why I use Reivars, Scions and Rough Riders in my list. Lesser extent Rattlings and Metallica Skitarri, running the flanks. A tide shouldn’t be just a tide, it should be a tide supported by the army.

 

Running 2 Tide Squads, then either Rhino Mounted interference Units, mass Assault Marines or Reivars for cheap, etc, back up by 1-2 Heavy Hitters (I use Scions but Thunderators/Terminators do this well too). You also going be reliant on your characters to deal with units like Terminators and other 2+/2W Models. My Castallen and Champion generally pair and hunt down said units with Teeth and Black Sword respectively.

 

Just as an aside Reivars and Tide work so nicely together, Reivars being cheap durable units we can mass drop. And unlike ASM take a hit back. Like if I had to my full opanion, a Tide List should include 2-3 Reivar Squads if not more because of how cheap they are to mass drop in backfield. If I had the money I’d easily buy another box of Reivars, to throw them into my list. Instead of Skitarri. (And used left over Points to run my Deathriders).

Edited February 4, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[arigatous]

That's basically a question of "what we have that other Chapters don't have".

 

1. We have pretty unique MSU shooting squads which can be combed with HB / ML stratagems.

2. We have an option to bring large marines squads. So we might try to find an effective tactics for them. Being Troops could help. 

3. We have powerful auras with the Helm. Could try to find a good combo here and there. Say, a warlord with 9" Rites of War could be of use for large squads.

4. Any of our deep strikers have 50% to charge at the very first turn.

 

Option 4 in my opinion immediately makes our Vanguard Detachments a viable ally for a lot of Imperial armies, not specifically limited to pure BTs. A detachment of 3 Knived Reivers units brings 50 attacks, 30 AS3+ wounds, 3 Stun Grenades and 3 sources of Terror for 300 points. If we only need two such units, Cenobytes can proxy the 3rd for just 6 points. 

 

Speaking of BT core with possible support from other Imperial troops, a combination of 2, 3 and 4 could be potentially effective. That in turn means reinventing of Black Tide for 8th edition. We already have strong core and good DS support. Imperium tag brings a lot of AT and AM options.

 

Option 1 by itself is IMO too weak to build around it, even throwing the Helm in. There are a lot of better options to build a competitive shooty list in SM:C.

[SydonianDragoon404]

I still have yet to find a unit in our codex that's worth charging with that isn't a character or dreadnought, and dreadnoughts aren't that great either compared to what other factions get swinging that those point costs. Daemon Princes, Custodian Shield Captains, etc. 

 

Space marine close combat units that aren't characters... the math just isn't there. They're too expensive, have too few attacks, and at the end of the day we have to make a choice between lots of strength 4 AP nothing attacks, or a few attacks with some AP and maybe high strength depending on how much you paid for the weapon. Not enough to kill things dead in an efficient manner when the rest of the game is very survivable or cheap now that so many OP codexes are out. 

 

I want to believe but I just don't see it. Vanguards, Terminators, Reivers, Company vets, I've poured over the options and tested them all at least twice with different loadouts. I've tried hammernators, lightning claw VV, double chainswords, knife Reivers. None of it has worked out against even some index armies. 

 

I just don't see it in the stats. I know math hammer is all theory and , but when I see it on the table too its depressing. 

 

What we need is some kind of access to mortal wounds in close combat. BT has less access to them than pretty much any other faction. No psykers, and the only time we can get mortal wounds is through Frag Assault launchers and Ironclad launchers. Super unreliable. Why is this the case when Admech and pour them out for 2 CP? When other factions can smite reliably up to 4 times? Its horse . 

I want a stratagem that lets one of our units deal mortal wounds in addition to normal damage on a 6+ in the fight phase, and another stratagem that give us +1 to wound rolls in close combat. Maybe then we can actually start killing things in close combat instead of the getting the crap results I've been dealing with lately in the space marine's excuse of a close combat option. 

 

/rant

Edited February 10, 2018 by SydonianDragoon404