8th Edition and Templars

[Firepower]

I don't think mortal wounds need to be any more prolific than they already are.  Codex: Space Marines is a shooty codex.  It's a fact.  There's no way around that.  We have some solid melee units, but nothing top tier.  

 

Cataphractii strike me as one of the best balances, currently, on account of their naturally high Invulnerable, shooting and melee potential.  Are they going to hit like Berzerkers?  No, but nothing in our dex can.  They're a happy medium.  Basic Terminators with a better save and slightly fewer weapon options.

 

My Ironclads can punch the daylights out of tough targets, but you don't want to throw them at hordes (which are prolific now) on account of only having 4 attacks, but that can be somewhat mitigated by the Hurricane and Heavy Flamers.  That is where units like Assault Terminators fall short.  

 

Assault Terminators are territory domination units.  They're scary, so they draw a lot of fire, and can survive most of it.  It's the same principal behind the Vindicator, before 8th edition neutered it.  You can count on them to put a big freakin' hole in a tough target with Hammers, but you should only put Claws on them to save points, because you don't want those expensive units getting bogged down by the sort of targets Claws are made for.

 

Every important melee unit should be backed up by HQ when possible.  Something as simple as re-rolling 1's to wound or hit can make an enormous difference, especially when talking about weight of attacks (Claw Vanguard, Ironclad shooting, Terminator shooting, etc.).  We're a shooty dex, so you absolutely must bolster your melee units when possible.  On the bright side, our Relic is ideal for this.  If you're rolling your heavy hitters in a transport like an LRC or Raven, try as hard as you can to find the points to bring Helbrecht along.

 

We haven't been able to go pure melee since long before 8th.  This is nothing new.  However, because of the changes to the Fight phase that came with 8th, we have to reconsider what weapons and units to use.  The main issue there is our old reliance on weight of dice, with charges and pistol/ccw combos no longer paying dividends outside of Chainswords, and enemies able to leave combat without penalty.  What you charge with has to hit very hard, and aim for the right targets.  Hammers against a horde?  Claws against a tank?  Nope, you aren't going to see big returns, even with force multiplying HQ units.

 

I'm no remotely happy about this state of events.  Just look on page 1 to see.  But this is the best I can do to offer solutions to our current handicap.  More mortal wound tricks definitely aren't a good solution.  They've already broken the game in several regards.  And we never hit super hard, we just hit with a butt load of dice and/or re-rolls to mitigate the lack of strength.

Edited February 10, 2018 by Firepower

[Honda]

Truth, so much truth in fact, I had to use a capital "T". :)

 

Assault Terminators are territory domination units.  They're scary, so they draw a lot of fire, and can survive most of it.

 

 

Interesting observations regarding Assault terminators. I consider them my go to "beat stick", but hadn't considered their territorial aspect. Hmm...

[Firepower]

Truth, so much truth in fact, I had to use a capital "T".

 

Assault Terminators are territory domination units.  They're scary, so they draw a lot of fire, and can survive most of it.

 

 

Interesting observations regarding Assault terminators. I consider them my go to "beat stick", but hadn't considered their territorial aspect. Hmm...

 

Well, look at how opponents react when they hit the board.  They quickly become the center of attention, and things that are especially vulnerable (big tanks) will tend to run away.  If they make the charge off of a Deep Strike, wonderful!  If not, they become the Rock of Stabraltar.  Though it doesn't work quite the same way if they're ferried into combat by a transport.

 

Still, Pod in two Ironclads (yes, I will always sell that tactic) and Deep Strike some Hammernators, and you've just claimed three big chunks of the table for yourself.  If positioned well as a perimeter, you can herd scared vehicles into a nice, claustrophobic kill box.

Edited February 10, 2018 by Firepower

[Schlitzaf]

Just for sake of clarity, all BA has over with melee Units is Death Company and Sang Gaurd. Their priests are good, but they have the same buff we can get from Helbrect*.

 

I am not ignoring Red Thirst, but their lack of rerolls/reliability in charging. Is notable because they generally use 2 Deep Strike style Units (Forlorn Hope and Descent of Angels), play a very classic 5th Ed DeathStarry Army.

 

We can run a large mass of deep strikers without needing to use Strategems for reliability. And it’s not just running critical mass, it’s a critical mass that even chaffed, provides an equal threat to your other half.

 

I think to expand on what, I and others have said earlier, a Black Templar Tide is List, will use our rules and units to their maximum potential. Core of the tide list of the tide, 3-4 Crusader Squads or 2 Crusader Squads and 2-4 Support Units (I suggest Intercessors), + 2-3 Characters (I do Marshall, Castallen and Champion).

 

But something about the tide and assault phase in general in 8th. It’s not about a single Star or even SuperStar. It’s about tactical or movement denial. But it’s also about dictating game tempo. A single charging unit is basically useless. Enemy withdraws (bar clever placement), and then opens fire.

 

The melee force needs to do three things, to setup a charge. Enable Crossing the board, Deny Enemy on a strategic level, and limit enemy on a tactical level. If your boys under engage a single point, that means enemy can deploy to only bring the firepower required to win onto a single point. Which is means you have to force the enemy to diffuse their forces.

 

Deep Strikers, and others methods are exactly this. They present projection of firepower, even a few squads force the enemy to spread out. Especially in Objective missions. If you insist on army purity, 3-5 Reivars Squads and 0-2 Interceptor are basically this. ASM, don’t have the durability and neither do Vangaurd, at 80 or 90 Points for 5 Wounds. They die to a stiff breath and enemy isn’t gonna to spread out their heavy hitters. Scout Squads are similar, and able to act in such a manner.

 

However, this sounds contradictory, a Marine player wants to 300 Spartans right? Well yes. But why did 300 Spartan work? A sword can only swing as far as you can reach. A gun? If you can see it you can shoot it. I am not saying dedicate equal points to each flank, just enough that the enemy has to respect and spread out. Or lose the objective mission or risk being flanked.

 

Tacticals Limit, the tactical scenerio microcosm of the larger board state. A specific point of engagement. If I charge the enemy, I present two choices, stay or flee. The choice to flee is implicit the correct one. But the choice to flee, denies the enemy their ability to shoot. But also the dictate the direction of their coming movements (unless fly).

 

My Marines rarely survive the battle in any form of function order, 132 models down to 20ish at best, And my opponent regularly has super units from Gulliman, Robots etc still alive. But I nonetheless still win. Why? Because even when they fled combat, they couldn’t flee past me. And that objective in the midrow. My Cenos sat on it.

 

If I engage turn 2, enemy withdraws turn 3. They have at best 2 turns to get themselves in gear and claim the objective. And post Approved, I have easily 3 turns of +1 VP. Homefield, then 1-2 in center. I easily end up with 8-9 VP come turn 4. Enemy in contrast has half that at best. And even if they reduce my Marines to marginal combat strength, at 3-4 models. I can still charge and lock them up or sneak their backfield objective for the turn. And they have to wipe out my campers (normally Intercessors, Cenos or Skitarii), and even one lives. I keep the objective. The tactical engagement, or simply delay of enemy movement. Results in a strategic advantage.

 

Our ability to take troop choices who aren’t bad. Specifically at camping, enables us to play this style even better. As unlike Devy Squads you need another troop unit to grab the objective from us.

 

—————

Tide is despite its name, more than the tide. It’s a combined arm force working in unison. A tide squad is a quality close combat, it’s ability to enact its potential is another question. But the potential forces respect. And I felt I had a larger point. You can come back to me.

 

*The only main difference Melee wise, is their chapter tactics. They have Hammer Bro, to Vanilla Codex Teeth of Terra. They in general hit harder, we in contrast are more reliably able to make the charge.

[tvih]

Even though I like my Templar models, frankly if I could magically alter history right now I'd probably just have Crimson Fists all the way. As is I have both, though vastly more Templars. But it just feels wrong playing overly shooty Templars. Heck, it would've even been cheaper to build Fists, although an annoyance to paint vehicles for them. Right now I have too many models compared to how many end up on the table due to essentially building two very similar armies. As is especially with so many things still unpainted or half-painted I'll probably quite often mix BT and CF models in the same list even if only using a single Chapter Tactics.

[Marshal Laeroth]

Just for sake of clarity, all BA has over with melee Units is Death Company and Sang Gaurd. Their priests are good, but they have the same buff we can get from Helbrect*.

 

I am not ignoring Red Thirst, but their lack of rerolls/reliability in charging. Is notable because they generally use 2 Deep Strike style Units (Forlorn Hope and Descent of Angels), play a very classic 5th Ed DeathStarry Army.

 

We can run a large mass of deep strikers without needing to use Strategems for reliability. And it’s not just running critical mass, it’s a critical mass that even chaffed, provides an equal threat to your other half.

 

I think to expand on what, I and others have said earlier, a Black Templar Tide is List, will use our rules and units to their maximum potential. Core of the tide list of the tide, 3-4 Crusader Squads or 2 Crusader Squads and 2-4 Support Units (I suggest Intercessors), + 2-3 Characters (I do Marshall, Castallen and Champion).

 

But something about the tide and assault phase in general in 8th. It’s not about a single Star or even SuperStar. It’s about tactical or movement denial. But it’s also about dictating game tempo. A single charging unit is basically useless. Enemy withdraws (bar clever placement), and then opens fire.

 

The melee force needs to do three things, to setup a charge. Enable Crossing the board, Deny Enemy on a strategic level, and limit enemy on a tactical level. If your boys under engage a single point, that means enemy can deploy to only bring the firepower required to win onto a single point. Which is means you have to force the enemy to diffuse their forces.

 

Deep Strikers, and others methods are exactly this. They present projection of firepower, even a few squads force the enemy to spread out. Especially in Objective missions. If you insist on army purity, 3-5 Reivars Squads and 0-2 Interceptor are basically this. ASM, don’t have the durability and neither do Vangaurd, at 80 or 90 Points for 5 Wounds. They die to a stiff breath and enemy isn’t gonna to spread out their heavy hitters. Scout Squads are similar, and able to act in such a manner.

 

However, this sounds contradictory, a Marine player wants to 300 Spartans right? Well yes. But why did 300 Spartan work? A sword can only swing as far as you can reach. A gun? If you can see it you can shoot it. I am not saying dedicate equal points to each flank, just enough that the enemy has to respect and spread out. Or lose the objective mission or risk being flanked.

 

Tacticals Limit, the tactical scenerio microcosm of the larger board state. A specific point of engagement. If I charge the enemy, I present two choices, stay or flee. The choice to flee is implicit the correct one. But the choice to flee, denies the enemy their ability to shoot. But also the dictate the direction of their coming movements (unless fly).

 

My Marines rarely survive the battle in any form of function order, 132 models down to 20ish at best, And my opponent regularly has super units from Gulliman, Robots etc still alive. But I nonetheless still win. Why? Because even when they fled combat, they couldn’t flee past me. And that objective in the midrow. My Cenos sat on it.

 

If I engage turn 2, enemy withdraws turn 3. They have at best 2 turns to get themselves in gear and claim the objective. And post Approved, I have easily 3 turns of +1 VP. Homefield, then 1-2 in center. I easily end up with 8-9 VP come turn 4. Enemy in contrast has half that at best. And even if they reduce my Marines to marginal combat strength, at 3-4 models. I can still charge and lock them up or sneak their backfield objective for the turn. And they have to wipe out my campers (normally Intercessors, Cenos or Skitarii), and even one lives. I keep the objective. The tactical engagement, or simply delay of enemy movement. Results in a strategic advantage.

 

Our ability to take troop choices who aren’t bad. Specifically at camping, enables us to play this style even better. As unlike Devy Squads you need another troop unit to grab the objective from us.

 

—————

Tide is despite its name, more than the tide. It’s a combined arm force working in unison. A tide squad is a quality close combat, it’s ability to enact its potential is another question. But the potential forces respect. And I felt I had a larger point. You can come back to me.

 

*The only main difference Melee wise, is their chapter tactics. They have Hammer Bro, to Vanilla Codex Teeth of Terra. They in general hit harder, we in contrast are more reliably able to make the charge.

 

This, this, and more of this. 

 

Assault has never, in many editions of the game, been the dictating factor in the game.  It perhaps was in 1st and 2nd Edition, but from 3rd Edition on, shooting has been king.  Each set of rules have followed this trend.  Close combat has always been a compliment to competitive armies.  We need to use it to supplement our games in strategic ways.  Even in 4th Edition, when we had our own codex that was chock full of close combat rules...those rules were needed to establish an equilibrium because shooting was so good in 4th edition.  If we didn't have something, anything, to highlight an alternative approach, no one would have half-looked at the army.  Even then, the codex was set up in such a way that it discouraged taking fire support units...which hindered our ability to compete.

 

As much as it pains me to say it, it has been many editions since we have had to swallow our pride and realize what the Templars are.  We do well as we are.  I have been saying it since 5th Edition.  Look at the high-end lists out there:  Do you see assault lists on the top tables?  With the exception of a single list at LVO, has been very little over the past 6-9 months.  Assault compliments a list; it can even been the theme of the list.  But you need to put the right firepower pieces around those close combat units.

[Firepower]

 Even in 4th Edition, when we had our own codex that was chock full of close combat rules...those rules were needed to establish an equilibrium because shooting was so good in 4th edition. 

 

 

Kinda countering your point here, brother.  At our best, we were good enough in melee to go toe to toe with a shooting heavy edition.  It's been a downward slope ever since.

 

I won't bother with the old arguments we've gone through a thousand times.  Things are as they are.  I just wanted to point out the justification for resentment of things as they are.

 

I'll still send my Crusaders into battle with their trusty swords and pistols, despite the fact they hit like wet noodles.  I'll still advance relentlessly towards any enemy I face, because that's where Templars belong.  And I'll continue to lose the vast majority of my games, because I accept the challenge, no matter the odds

 

By the by, my gallery on your blog is very out of date.  I've come a long way since those first fumbling steps into painting my Crusade ;)

Edited February 12, 2018 by Firepower

[SydonianDragoon404]

Warning, emotional rant incoming: 

 

I understand fully that shooting has been important for a long time. What I don't understand is why we specifically are stuck with sub-par close combat elements. I keep saying it and will continue to say it, 2 attacks is simply not enough for an elite close combat unit, and that's the max we can get. Ever. With those two attacks, we can either improve that to 3, perhaps even 4, at strength 4 AP of nothing. Good for killing nothing but Guardsmen, Orks, and Termagants. Or, we can make two attacks with a power weapon on a 3+. 2 is not enough to get through the required checklist of hit, wound, enemy save, to make a worthwhile dent in a target. Or, we can take those two attacks, penalize them with a -1 to hit (so a 4+) and make the profile of the weapon fearsome. Again, the problem is hit, wound, enemy save going down that checklist, 2 attacks per model is just not enough when you pay so much for the damn model swinging that weapon.

 

So given all of this, my whole point is: why in the :cuss do other faction's close combat units actually do the things that they're supposed to do, whilst ours languish in 2 attack land? Whether its through gaining additional strikes from charging like Blood Angel Death Company, Psyker powers buffing close combat abilities that other factions have access to, aura abilities from special units like Nurgle can do with its banners to do things like cause 2 damage on sixes, unit purchased upgrades like Genestealers can obtain, badass weapons like eldar star lances, or just the special rules on the damn unit profile that just annihilates anything it touches like Fulgurite Electro Priests. 

 

Why, in the Emperor's damned name, do we seriously not have any unit that can compete? That I've used or seen on the table? 

 

Firepower, I entirely disagree with the majority of what you have to say. Mortal wounds were designed to be the great equalizer, so that armies couldn't create indestructible death star units through loopholes or combinations. Some factions have more access to them than others, which is straight up wrong. Every faction should have the ability to put mortal wounds out on the table in some kind of reliable fashion. Right now, it looks like me like Templars, Sisters, Custodes, and perhaps some others I'm forgetting simply just do not have that. It has nothing to do with lack of psykers either. Admech can pour out tons of mortal wounds through unit special abilities and stratagems. Not a single psyker in that book. Why do we not have any ability to put out mortal wounds other than expensive units getting a single 4+ roll on the charge to deal D3? 

 

Cataphractii Terminators are your answer? Really? The unit that trades any kind of decent offensive shooting options for a 4+ invuln save? That's really not that great of a trade man. Again, 2 attacks. Whether you're talking power fists or lightning claws it almost comes out the exact same unless you're fighting toughness 3. I'm not convinced. 

 

Assault Terminators territory domination? Even when they have made the charge out of deepstrike, I've fielded them 5 times. 3 times all hammers, 2 times with claws. They have only killed something once out of all of that. The amount of points spent on attending to them by my opponents was admittedly more than they costed, for one single turn. They were out those points for a turn, I was out those points (they are not freaking cheap) for the rest of the game. 

 

Look guys, I understand melee hasn't been dominant in a long time. I get it. I do. It's part of the game, we've never been renown for being CC beasts, etc etc. I get it. I'm just upset because it seems like every other faction has SOMETHING. Some kind of scary threat unit which is tough enough to walk across the board (Guard Bullgryns with buffs becoming indestructible), or otherwise has a way to make it across the table, and threaten to to just annihilate anything it touches short of a damned imperial knight. 

 

Look, maybe bad luck is really all it is, or I'm just not seeing something. But so far, just pouring over the damned book and trying everything I have access to, which only excludes Assault Centurions, I just have never seen the same effect that other factions are getting out of their close combat units. Even shooting armies like the Mechanicus, and Imperial Guard with their indestructible Bullgryns, even those factions have close combat units that are not only psychology intimidating, but actually DO SOMETHING. That's the part I'm having trouble with! Yes, a big squad of Vanguard Vets is intimidating! Yes assault terminators with hammers and shields are intimidating! Have they ever actually done anything noteworthy in the dozens of games I've run them in? Hell no! But every time I see Bullgryns tie up an entire frontline for 3 turns, or Electro Priests just melt a pair of dreadnoughts or squad of terminators or a nid monster (which I have done with my admech army) I get fracking jaded about it. 

 

There, its all out. I feel better. 

 

/rant

[Firepower]

Sydonian, I didn't say those units would win the war against the current meta.  I said they're the best melee options we have available.  In fact, I agreed that we have a subpar dex for assault, as I've said since...well, many years now.

 

Those units are the best options for a bad situation.  Yes, my stomach sinks when I see my opponent pull out his 100th Guardsman, only to produce a squad of Bullgryns.  Yes, I sigh in frustration when a charging Templar squad kills three of those Guardsmen, then gets shot into oblivion when the squad walks away next turn with hardly a scratch.  There's nothing I can do to change that for you or me.

 

Yes, I think we are under powered and poorly represented in our Codex.  

 

But that isn't helpful or constructive.  It's beating a horse that's been dead for 3 editions now.  If you want to build a tournament list, look to Laeroth and build yourself a shooty army.  If you want to know what our best stabby options are, if you want to run Templars as they were meant to be, look to my advice above, and be ready to slog your way through an uphill battle.  If you want to lament the state of our niche as an assault army in a shooty codex pitted against a sea of armies with bigger and better options, scream into an Altoids tin and throw it off a cliff.  It will have the same impact as ranting into the internet.

[SydonianDragoon404]

 

 

Scream into an Altoids tin and throw it off a cliff.  It will have the same impact as ranting into the internet.

 

 

 

 

That's hilarious I may just do that haha. I'm gonna have to remember this one.

 

Thanks FP, you know what they say misery loves company. Glad I'm not only one who's frustrated about all this. 

[Marshal Laeroth]

 

 

By the by, my gallery on your blog is very out of date.  I've come a long way since those first fumbling steps into painting my Crusade

 

 

Then get me some new pictures, dang-it!

 

If you want to build a tournament list, look to Laeroth and build yourself a shooty army.  If you want to know what our best stabby options are, if you want to run Templars as they were meant to be, look to my advice above, and be ready to slog your way through an uphill battle.

 

You need to be fair now Firepower, the lists that BT can use competitively have evolved dramatically over the course of the past 10 years.  I often have a "stabby" contingent to my lists.  :P

[Firepower]

By "contingent," do you mean "unit?" ;)

 

Just pilfer from my gallery.  All my pics are in there :D

[Medjugorje]

the only thing is to write GW

 

 

THEY HAVE TO KNOW IT. Even then they would change something.

[SydonianDragoon404]

What's your list Laeroth?

Edited February 13, 2018 by SydonianDragoon404

[Firepower]

the only thing is to write GW

 

 

THEY HAVE TO KNOW IT. Even then they would change something.

 

If done respectfully and politely, yes, it's something you can do.  If done in caps lock and full of vim, you're doing more harm than good.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Firepower