How should I counter the Guilliman gunline?

Coverfire · January 29, 2018

I have a game coming up against UM and expect to see the Guilliman gunline. I've heard bad things but haven't seen it in action. Any ideas what to counter it with?

TiguriusX · January 29, 2018

Reroll to hit. Reroll to wound.

They have to stay in his bubble to get it.

*edit*

Just in case you didn't get the meaning of this...Bobby G gunline tends to castle up and form a static fire base. If you focus on the mission (objectives....table quarters whatever) you can use that against them. Basically expect losses to long range fire but focus on winning the mission and accepting casualties will be necessary

*end edit

Use terrain well.

If you try to kill Bobby G remember he might come back and ruin your day if he rolls well

Edited January 29, 2018 by TiguriusX

Coverfire · January 29, 2018

Pretty much in line with what I have heard.

Thinking of Outflanking Harald Deathwolf with 10 Wulfen. Long Fangs to strike back with their own shots and some fast units for late game objective grabs or something.

I did just purchase some Grey Knights that I am yet to play with so I was also thinking of a contingent with a GK land raider and casting Astral Aim on it, set it up on the 48" mark and just try to hit unit by unit.

TiguriusX · January 29, 2018

Our long fangs have their own reroll to hit and you can babysit them with 1 wgbl to reroll wounds (the discount bobby g effect).

We also have the tdawg with storm shield trick to shrug off incoming fire.

Just make sure you screen them from deep strike or flank shenanigans and long fangs can do some work.

I'm not familiar with GK besides hearing they are ineffective (their b&c forum is depressing) good luck with them

Kasper_Hawser · January 30, 2018

If you want to use GK, do not underestimate a full 10 man squad throwing 40 Storm bolter shots. Suggest you use the long Fangs to focus fire their transports tanks, then the following turn use the GK to push them back to Bobby G, clogging his line while you use your regular Rhino squads to get objectives or hug cover.

Coverfire · January 30, 2018

At the moment I am thinking something along the lines of this.

Harald Deathwolf

Wolf Priest in terminator armour

Ven Dread ' Rifleman'

Wulfen x10 - Pack leader w/ claws, Hammer/shields

Fenrisian Wolf Pack x5 wolves

Wolf Guard Battle leader - boltpistol, frost sword

Long Fangs - Wolf Guard champ w/ stormshield, pack leader, x4 Lascannons

Chapter approved book freed up around 150-odd points so I brought in some Fenrisian Wolves to annoy him. I think it would be funny if he has to target them or get assaulted.

There is the question: if an opponent places his units models on the floor of a building so that when you charge you cannot physically place the base of your model on the floor of the building the charging unit is assaulting is the charge successful? Can you position your models in such a way that you can prevent being assaulted despite being in range?

Because if you can that screws a lot of what I wanted to do and my opponent will know it and exploit it.

EDIT:
Oh, the plan. ummm....
Deployment: Long fangs & Ven Dreads set up on the 48" mark to his devastator units with battle leaders in support. Harald, Wolf Priest and Wulfen go into Reserves. Fenrisian Wolves set up either to prevent his reserves from getting too close to my Long Fangs or to rush ahead and assault his. Harald and Wulfen will Outflank either to assault or support against teleporting terminators if he lands first and I feel that I could put up a decent effort with my gunline. Wolf Priest with teleport in to support Wulfen assault.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Coverfire

Sturm Moonwolf · February 1, 2018

I've just been running right at the gunline, with a twist. I use Heresy to full effect and run my own bobby G (my 30k Russ model counts as) and rhino rush along with several lords on thunderwolves as well as wulfen, taking advantage of bobby's +1 to advance and charge benefit. It's a one trick pony.

Kasper_Hawser · February 1, 2018

At the moment I am thinking something along the lines of this.

Harald Deathwolf

Wolf Priest in terminator armour

Ven Dread ' Rifleman'

Ven Dread ' Rifleman'

Wulfen x10 - Pack leader w/ claws, Hammer/shields

Fenrisian Wolf Pack x5 wolves

Fenrisian Wolf Pack x5 wolves

Fenrisian Wolf Pack x5 wolves

Fenrisian Wolf Pack x5 wolves

Wolf Guard Battle leader - boltpistol, frost sword

Wolf Guard Battle leader - boltpistol, frost sword

Long Fangs - Wolf Guard champ w/ stormshield, pack leader, x4 Lascannons

Long Fangs - Wolf Guard champ w/ stormshield, pack leader, x4 Lascannons

Long Fangs - Wolf Guard champ w/ stormshield, pack leader, x4 Lascannons

Chapter approved book freed up around 150-odd points so I brought in some Fenrisian Wolves to annoy him. I think it would be funny if he has to target them or get assaulted.

There is the question: if an opponent places his units models on the floor of a building so that when you charge you cannot physically place the base of your model on the floor of the building the charging unit is assaulting is the charge successful? Can you position your models in such a way that you can prevent being assaulted despite being in range?

Because if you can that screws a lot of what I wanted to do and my opponent will know it and exploit it.

EDIT:

Oh, the plan. ummm....

Deployment: Long fangs & Ven Dreads set up on the 48" mark to his devastator units with battle leaders in support. Harald, Wolf Priest and Wulfen go into Reserves. Fenrisian Wolves set up either to prevent his reserves from getting too close to my Long Fangs or to rush ahead and assault his. Harald and Wulfen will Outflank either to assault or support against teleporting terminators if he lands first and I feel that I could put up a decent effort with my gunline. Wolf Priest with teleport in to support Wulfen assault.

Might I suggest single Cyberwolves instead of 5 Fen wolves per pack? They really die and run to a stiff breeze. A Cyberwolf has 2 wounds and 4+, and won't run away if he is alone.

Coverfire · February 1, 2018

Might I suggest single Cyberwolves instead of 5 Fen wolves per pack? They really die and run to a stiff breeze. A Cyberwolf has 2 wounds and 4+, and won't run away if he is alone.

I hear what you're saying, especially with support there from TigeriusX, whose opinion I do respect, however, - most arguments go downhill after someone says 'however' - I feel that firstly, Cyberwolves are overpriced for what is essentially fodder frankly. Yes, Fenrisian Wolves have a HUGE issue with LD, which is why I have 5 member packs so that my opponent kills them (as opposed to having them self-destructing) but they need to be able to be a least a little bit threatening if they're to take heat off my Long Fangs. If I choose to use them on the day to prevent teleporters to get too close then I will need them to span out. If they do get into combat a singular Cyberwolve may kill a MEQ but a pack of Fen Wolves have a better chance of taking out a few.

Going back to cost. I am choosing between 20 Fenrisian wolves or 8 Cyberwolves. Against basically an army of Lascannons. The better armour isn't going to save me. If he brings out Missile Launchers may have to hit those as a priority target but at least I would get a save versus Frag missiles so maybe not.

My power unit is the Wulfen anyway. If I have an opportunity to overrun his position unit by unit we'll see. but never having faced Guillman before I do not really know what to expect except the same type of death and carnage that took place when I faced Magnus (which was so hideously one sided with Death Hex, I had assaulted with Logan, Bjorn, Arjac, two long fangs, two cyberwolves, and a wolf guard battleleader at once and all of which perishing to frankly buggerall damage to Magnus).

EDIT:

That is my thinking anyway, I didn't come here to ignore advise so if you think that I am wrong them say so. Quite willing to swap and change stuff around. Hell, I'll rethink the entire tactic. Ven Dreads with Shield? Predators? Using Grey Hunters in Rhinos. I do like the idea of two Scout packs all plasma'd up in a rhino.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Coverfire

Deadnaughty · February 1, 2018

At the moment I am thinking something along the lines of this.

Harald Deathwolf

Wolf Priest in terminator armour

Ven Dread ' Rifleman'

Ven Dread ' Rifleman'

Wulfen x10 - Pack leader w/ claws, Hammer/shields

Fenrisian Wolf Pack x5 wolves

Fenrisian Wolf Pack x5 wolves

Fenrisian Wolf Pack x5 wolves

Fenrisian Wolf Pack x5 wolves

Wolf Guard Battle leader - boltpistol, frost sword

Wolf Guard Battle leader - boltpistol, frost sword

Long Fangs - Wolf Guard champ w/ stormshield, pack leader, x4 Lascannons

Long Fangs - Wolf Guard champ w/ stormshield, pack leader, x4 Lascannons

Long Fangs - Wolf Guard champ w/ stormshield, pack leader, x4 Lascannons

Chapter approved book freed up around 150-odd points so I brought in some Fenrisian Wolves to annoy him. I think it would be funny if he has to target them or get assaulted.

There is the question: if an opponent places his units models on the floor of a building so that when you charge you cannot physically place the base of your model on the floor of the building the charging unit is assaulting is the charge successful? Can you position your models in such a way that you can prevent being assaulted despite being in range?

Because if you can that screws a lot of what I wanted to do and my opponent will know it and exploit it.

EDIT:

Oh, the plan. ummm....

Deployment: Long fangs & Ven Dreads set up on the 48" mark to his devastator units with battle leaders in support. Harald, Wolf Priest and Wulfen go into Reserves. Fenrisian Wolves set up either to prevent his reserves from getting too close to my Long Fangs or to rush ahead and assault his. Harald and Wulfen will Outflank either to assault or support against teleporting terminators if he lands first and I feel that I could put up a decent effort with my gunline. Wolf Priest with teleport in to support Wulfen assault.

Might I suggest single Cyberwolves instead of 5 Fen wolves per pack? They really die and run to a stiff breeze. A Cyberwolf has 2 wounds and 4+, and won't run away if he is alone.

When your goal is area denial I would rather have 5 models then 2. Both die instantly anyway.

The Saint Ragnar · February 1, 2018

At the moment I am thinking something along the lines of this.

Harald Deathwolf

Wolf Priest in terminator armour

Ven Dread ' Rifleman'

Ven Dread ' Rifleman'

Wulfen x10 - Pack leader w/ claws, Hammer/shields

Fenrisian Wolf Pack x5 wolves

Fenrisian Wolf Pack x5 wolves

Fenrisian Wolf Pack x5 wolves

Fenrisian Wolf Pack x5 wolves

Wolf Guard Battle leader - boltpistol, frost sword

Wolf Guard Battle leader - boltpistol, frost sword

Long Fangs - Wolf Guard champ w/ stormshield, pack leader, x4 Lascannons

Long Fangs - Wolf Guard champ w/ stormshield, pack leader, x4 Lascannons

Long Fangs - Wolf Guard champ w/ stormshield, pack leader, x4 Lascannons

Chapter approved book freed up around 150-odd points so I brought in some Fenrisian Wolves to annoy him. I think it would be funny if he has to target them or get assaulted.

There is the question: if an opponent places his units models on the floor of a building so that when you charge you cannot physically place the base of your model on the floor of the building the charging unit is assaulting is the charge successful? Can you position your models in such a way that you can prevent being assaulted despite being in range?

Because if you can that screws a lot of what I wanted to do and my opponent will know it and exploit it.

EDIT:

Oh, the plan. ummm....

Deployment: Long fangs & Ven Dreads set up on the 48" mark to his devastator units with battle leaders in support. Harald, Wolf Priest and Wulfen go into Reserves. Fenrisian Wolves set up either to prevent his reserves from getting too close to my Long Fangs or to rush ahead and assault his. Harald and Wulfen will Outflank either to assault or support against teleporting terminators if he lands first and I feel that I could put up a decent effort with my gunline. Wolf Priest with teleport in to support Wulfen assault.

Might I suggest single Cyberwolves instead of 5 Fen wolves per pack? They really die and run to a stiff breeze. A Cyberwolf has 2 wounds and 4+, and won't run away if he is alone.

When your goal is area denial I would rather have 5 models then 2. Both die instantly anyway.

The thing about area denial is that it is very dependent on the situation. If you are trying to protect a flank with a single unit the 5 man wolves makes sense but if you need to strategically fill two holes that stretch beyond the minimum distance required for the squad then having the two single units makes more sense.

I ran into a situation where I was practicing for an ITC and I had the 5 member wolves and realized that depending on deployment they could not cover the deep strike denial I needed them to. When I ran the same scenario with just two cyberwolves they plugged the gaps perfectly.

TiguriusX · February 1, 2018

This is a good discussion on screening tactics so I wanted to give you guys my detailed reasons.

I also favor individual cyberwolves for backfield screening. I leave them in the rear. I take 2 or 3 and their job is to push back deepstrike units from my fire base. If someone wants to drop obliterators and spend CP to fire twice they can have fun with the wolf and no rapid fire on my real troops due to the distance.

My GH are the forward/advancing screen unit and their job is to eat smites and escort my hammer (Bjorn and axe/shield friends).

Back to the cyberwolves. Psychologically, opponents hate firing at single models and view it as a waste. The good players will realize it is worth it to obtain kill points or certain objectives. However if that happens you still used a dirt cheap model to soak up long ranged fire and keep your real units safe that much longer.

If my cyber wolves survive they get moved behind a wall near an objective or fan out to table quarters.

A single cyber wolf has a 9 inch bubble radius.

That means I can put them approx. 18 inches apart (no need for coherency) and it creates a huge denial zone

9 inches-CW1-9 inches 9 inches-CW2-9 inches

Approx. 36 inch diameter for this denial area from 2 models

The fenrisian wolf pack

9 inches-FW1-2 inches-FW2-2 inches-FW3-2 inches-FW4-2 inches-FW5-9 inches

Approx. 26 inch diameter for this denial area from 5 models

*Yes I know they are not perfect circles this is just to get the idea across

You can get 2 cyber wolves for the same point cost as a fenrisian pack and you can put them wherever you want because they are separate units.

The fenrisian pack has to stay in coherency so the bubble is not 5 times as large as the cyber wolf. If you max out the coherency you get approx. 8 extra inches of buffer but it is in a straight line. If you choose some other formation the buffer shrinks.

The increased combat potential of a pack of fenrisian wolves doesn't factor into my list building because the backfield screener is never going to be used that way.

The primary job of my screening unit is to make buffer space and die well. Bonus points for being super cheap.

Direct comparison of 2 cyber wolves v 5 fenrisian wolves for me is as follows:

-Points? Same

-Buffer space? I can make more by spreading out the cyber wolves and they are far more flexible with placement

-Die well? Sure will...might even survive due to the SM stat line. The higher number of wounds and superior armor can cause mistakes if the opponent doesn't commit enough firepower to it.

Verdict....I love my little cyber wolves...and we can always rebuild them bigger....faster....stronger

Edited February 1, 2018 by TiguriusX

Kasper_Hawser · February 2, 2018

@ tiguriusx - Not to sound like a weaboo but. regarding your cyberwolf.... KAWAIII DESU!!!

LOL, joking. that metal head looks like something out of Dino Riders.

@ Covefire - LOL, does that mean other than Tiguriusx you don't respect other suggestions? Nah, I know you don't mean that but it is a rather poor choice of words.

However, I suggest that despite all of our input, your list is actually quite solid and respectable. You have plenty of screening units and good firepower, if your opponent brings lascannons, he'll be wasting most of his firepower being abusive to animals. With Harald, the Terminator wolf priest, the Wulfen with outflank strategem, I think you'll have 3 ways to draw your opponent fire while your puppies make their way up the board or towards objectives.

The important thing as always, is to play the map and objectives. I could be wrong, but just because Bobby G works best in static gunline does not mean that the gunline can't move. So be wary of it. In this edition, units moving with heavy weapons can still shoot better than 7th edition, so don't think he'll stand in a corner and waste that big freaking sword.

Might be a good idea to bait bobby G into attacking the wulfen. Chances are wulfen will die but not at once, and the ones that DO die, will get to swing their weapons.

I may sound like a broken record, but play the map, not the list. That being said, your list is interesting and reasonable, not much "fat".

Edited February 2, 2018 by Kasper_Hawser

Coverfire · February 2, 2018

@ tiguriusx - Not to sound like a weaboo but. regarding your cyberwolf.... KAWAIII DESU!!!

LOL, joking. that metal head looks like something out of Dino Riders.

@ Covefire - LOL, does that mean other than Tiguriusx you don't respect other suggestions? Nah, I know you don't mean that but it is a rather poor choice of words.

However, I suggest that despite all of our input, your list is actually quite solid and respectable. You have plenty of screening units and good firepower, if your opponent brings lascannons, he'll be wasting most of his firepower being abusive to animals. With Harald, the Terminator wolf priest, the Wulfen with outflank strategem, I think you'll have 3 ways to draw your opponent fire while your puppies make their way up the board or towards objectives.

The important thing as always, is to play the map and objectives. I could be wrong, but just because Bobby G works best in static gunline does not mean that the gunline can't move. So be wary of it. In this edition, units moving with heavy weapons can still shoot better than 7th edition, so don't think he'll stand in a corner and waste that big freaking sword.

Might be a good idea to bait bobby G into attacking the wulfen. Chances are wulfen will die but not at once, and the ones that DO die, will get to swing their weapons.

I may sound like a broken record, but play the map, not the list. That being said, your list is interesting and reasonable, not much "fat".

I see your point about the language I used, one little redundant word can change the entire context of the sentence.

Interesting area denial discussion, although it seems counter-intuitive I see your points of view and look forward to playing around with those options.

You're also right in that although this is a Gunline, it doesn't mean it is a static one and will have to consider who I assault carefully to avoid leaving myself exposed when he falls back.

Just purchased Open War cards so missions will be even more random than usual.

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How should I counter the Guilliman gunline?

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