The game: "We know how to fix it!"

[Stross]

I studied my CSM Codex and new Daemon Codex and found some things, that will allow for many of our models actully shine, but not make them broken or overpowered like Guilliman or Dark Reapers. 

So it will be interesting to make a suggestion how would you model start to play after some fixing. And you can consider your  Legion trait, Strategems, Relics and the price. 

Everything, what is important for your faction. 

[Stross]

I will start. 

 

Forgefiend aka DakkaFiend. But what is his Dakka? 8 shots? Yes, 8 srt -1 ap 2d. But with BS 4+ and it is degrading. So it is slightly better autocannon. But why not just take havocs? Or even better - Sicaran. 8 shots, but with str 7. But +1 to Flyers. And BS 3+. Three of them is going to ruin every bird's day, be it Stormtalon or Stormraven. 

So, if we consider the rule, that Daemon Engines should not have BS 3+ because it is basically daemons... (in uncomfortable situation, we must presume), then it must be dealed like with Leman Russes. Increase its amount of shots. 

Not eight, but at least 16. Yes, just put down streight, it will be fine. But Chaos have real promlems with Dakka, especially strong one. I need to test this, but it will be a bit more worth it to buy model rather than just because she looks cool (and she does). Space marines have Razorback with Twin Assault. 3+ BS, 12 shots, str 6. And it is still good, not overpowered, but good. 

 

The next Defiler. Still, we can leave WS and BS 4+ (but I would give him 3+ WS becayse of his deadly claws). The problem with him that he easily can just stuck into infantry. He should get the second profile, when 1 his attack count for 2 or even 3. like Renegade Knight. That will do a lot for him.

[Cryptix]

Chosen - Either 2+ WS, BS, or a way to target characters. Choose one for free or two for 18 points.

Possessed - Gain Daemonic Alignment and go up to 25 points.

Those are the only two mediocre units I've played with, and only slightly.

[ChazSexington]

• CSMs dropped to 11 points, give them a bonus if they number 11+ (Fury of the Legion to double tap bolters for 1 CP or something), and something to help morale. 2 CP autopass morale is too expensive to use on them when they readily lose so many bodies.
• CSMs and Chosen can take bolters, bolt pistols, and chainswords again. "You can play with your old army" my ass.
• Helbrutes dropped a few points.
• Drop Possessed a touch.
• Re-tool Fallen and give them stratagems (and a built-in Infiltrate).
• Improve Reaper autocannon. The opportunity cost is too high as you can always take better weapons on the same chassis. You would always prefer combi-plasma or a heavy flamer on Termies, and lascannon/missile launcher on a Dakkadread.
• Change VotLW stratagem so you can't use it on Cultists (actually a nerf). 
• Improve summoning by allowing the character to move AND summon. 
• Improve Chosen and Muties.
• Re-tool equipment values depending on unit, à la 30k. I would love it if unit costs were re-tooled to give us a reason to not take MSU that isn't a Slaanesh Alpha Strike Double Tap. This is for all codices, mind.
• Further improve Icon of Flame. It's terrible.
• Give Cultists something to mitigate morale. 1 CP autopass or something similar. Taking Abaddon to babysit Cultists or using VotLW, Endless Cacophony, and Forward Operatives is silly. 

 

These are just tweaks; I think our codex fantastic all things considered.

 

Edit: As is tradition:

• Drop pods

Edited January 30, 2018 by ChazSexington

[Trevak Dal]

Chosen can be blinged out. You want Combi Bolters power weapons and plasma pistols? Do it. For all of them, not some codex adherent 5. Give them infiltrate natively.

[Dhar'Neth]

Give Chosen Chainsword, Bolt pistol AND Bolter. Edited January 30, 2018 by Dhar'Neth

[Khornestar]

Chosen: agreed with all of the above. Every model can upgrade, bolter/bp/chainsword stock. 1 upgrade from a list to choose from. If they’re gonna be expensive, they might as well be worth it.

 

Basic CSM: suggestion above is good. At 11 points they’re still not great, but at least they’re cheaper. Include the ability to take melee weapons instead of only heavy/special.

 

Axe of Blind Fury: get rid of the inability to re-roll 1’s. The current stats aren’t so good that the no re-rolls and hitting friendly models are justified, IMO. I think I’d always rather take a Power Fist for the ability to wound on 2’s without killing friendly models and talisman of burning blood for guaranteeing charges. Or black mace.

 

Exalted champ: 5++ save added

 

Khorne Daemon Prince: ability to deny 1 psychic power per turn in addition to +1 attack. Currently not a good trade off. Give them the ability to trade out their weapons for relics, as well (for any daemon prince).

 

Word Bearers: give them their summoning stratagem buff innately and replace the stratagem with one that allows summoning after moving/arriving from reserves. Diabolist: spend 1 CP before the game begins to upgrade a character to gain this ability. So skilled/empowered is this particular character that he doesn’t need the intense concentration usually required when summoning daemons.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Chosen:  Should be able to take jump packs or bikes.  

 

Possessed:  T5 or less points.

 

Defiler:  More attacks in CC

 

Maulerfriend:  better WS or S shouldnt degrade or cheaper

 

Vindicator:  cost should go up but it should shoot twice if move half distance or less.  Right now it is too unreliable to be usuable.

 

Helldrake: More attacks... this thing just doesnt do much other than harassment.  For 180 points it should be able to kill stuff in CC.  

[intel31337]

World Eaters - Add the ability to deny 1 power for banners, in addition to the normal stuff. WE already have no psykers - so no spells and no denial, and forcing them to use CP. Next best option would be to take a detachment of flesh-hounds.

 

Bump up the WS/BS of daemon engines. They are arguably one of the defining features that separates CSM from regular SM, but fall flat when they try to do anything. FW daemon engines have WS/BS 3+, I don't think it would be a stretch to improve the codex entries.

 

CSM could use a point reduction. I'm glad they've upgraded from "total trash" to "decent option", but just needs a bit more to make them shine.

Chosen need a reason to exist. Havoks are cheaper ranged option and berserkers are a more effective/cheaper melee option. Would even venture to say Possessed are a better melee option if you did not want Khorne for fluff reasons. Maybe give them the ability to act as body guards CHARACTERS?
 

Mutilators - Also needs a reason to exist.. 4" movement on a melee unit? Wish they would have just combined Mutilators and Obliterates. 

[Stross]

Chosen - Either 2+ WS, BS, or a way to target characters. Choose one for free or two for 18 points.

 

For my opinion it is good that only characters can have 2+ BS and WS

Possessed - Gain Daemonic Alignment and go up to 25 points.

 

Or at least not make their attacks random. Because oblies cannot role something REALLY terrible, so they can't kill like anything. Genestealers cheaper and do a lot more. 

And I would love them to have flamers in their mouths like they had in Dawn of War.

• CSMs dropped to 11 points, give them a bonus if they number 11+ (Fury of the Legion to double tap bolters for 1 CP or something), and something to help morale. 2 CP autopass morale is too expensive to use on them when they readily lose so many bodies.

   

  I tried to play with 90 marines under Abaddon. But if I was able to buy more, like 110 of them, it would not help. Their cost and their moral are not their biggest problem. They die to fast, not so much differences between them and conscripts in cover and with stratagem +1 to saving throws.

They must be like elite troops, but only Primaris guys feels like a true space marines. Shame.

• CSMs and Chosen can take bolters, bolt pistols, and chainswords again. "You can play with your old army" my ass.

   

   

Yes, this definatly would help at least. 

• Re-tool Fallen and give them stratagems (and a built-in Infiltrate).

   

  I think we are going to get special codex for them, like Custodies... or at least I hope for that and they are not going to be closer to Imperium more.

• Improve Reaper autocannon. The opportunity cost is too high as you can always take better weapons on the same chassis. You would always prefer combi-plasma or a heavy flamer on Termies, and lascannon/missile launcher on a Dakkadread.

   

  I think they shoud start with improving normal Autocannon, not just putting down its cost. I tested havocs with it. Lascannon is still better. Hydras not worth as well. Only Sicanaran against flyers are really shine. 24 shots on 2+ and on 6 it is become ap -3. Normal autocannon don't do even on 6's

• Change VotLW stratagem so you can't use it on Cultists (actually a nerf). 

   

  It is the only chance for these troops to become something. Scouts can take rifles and even missle launchers. Orks, Nids and Daemons are really strong in melee. Guardians and Kabalits can shoot well. And Guard have orders. We have only stratagem to make our cultists at least competative and VoLW can be a good and fluff nerf, but only if we get a fair trade. Which is probably is not going to be. And how we can get cheep dakka instead? Especially when enemy have termogaunts, horrors and consctipts under orders?

•  

  Improve summoning by allowing the character to move AND summon. 

   

  Or at least make stratagem to do this. Because now with Deepstriking Daemons I never use summoning. 3D6 charge is too good, not saying about locus. 

•  

   

   and Muties.

  These guys need to remove from random attack as well. For the beginning. Because even for 30 pts they do nothing.

 

 

• Re-tool equipment values depending on unit, à la 30k. I would love it if unit costs were re-tooled to give us a reason to not take MSU that isn't a Slaanesh Alpha Strike Double Tap. This is for all codices, mind.

I don't know, I see this better that it was in 7'th. When you take Khârn, plague marines, drakes and very very random stuff just to be a bit competative. At least know armies have some theme rather than just number of units from codex. But not in all things of course.

 

 

• Further improve Icon of Flame. It's terrible.

Icon of Vengeance as well

•  

• Give Cultists something to mitigate morale. 1 CP autopass or something similar. Taking Abaddon to babysit Cultists or using VotLW, Endless Cacophony, and Forward Operatives is silly. 

 

 

Everyone would want that thing. Daemons really suffer from moral. Only Nids and orks have no problem with it. IG need Valhalla for this. Eldar need Avatar. 

 

Edit: As is tradition:

• Drop pods

we have it... for 130 pts...

But even space marines don't use them now, too expensive. So I don't know why not take Rhino if they will be expensive.

 

 

Axe of Blind Fury: get rid of the inability to re-roll 1’s. The current stats aren’t so good that the no re-rolls and hitting friendly models are justified, IMO. I think I’d always rather take a Power Fist for the ability to wound on 2’s without killing friendly models and talisman of burning blood for guaranteeing charges. Or black mace.

All CSM artifacts must be reconsidered actually. Just look at daemonics one, they are perfect. 

 

 

Exalted champ: 5++ save added

Or at least give him jumppack. Dark apostle need it as well. 

Because our army forced to go towards melee. There many units about it and many special abilities as well. We have berzerkers, yes, but they can be killed and kited well.

Khorne Daemon Prince: ability to deny 1 psychic power per turn in addition to +1 attack. Currently not a good trade off. Give them the ability to trade out their weapons for relics, as well (for any daemon prince).

 

Except for Daemonic, there is no reason to make CSM daemon prince Khorne. Psy powers allow them to do many more. Even denying one would not give him that much

Word Bearers: 

 

for now I will be fine if they fix its broken legion trait

[Commissar K.]

- The first thing I'd like to fix before altering any cost is set the game to a standard CP level. E.g. You play, 3 CP, you play 1000 points? +3 CP for every 1000 points. Meaning 2000 points generate 9 CP no question asked.

What I see as a global issue to the game currently is that CP are generated by the availability of cheap choices. It's odd, it creates the suggestion that more chaff generates more stratagical options, or more HQ would, which makes little to no sence to me.

- The secondary thing I'd like to fix before altering Smite is the oddity that is the character protecting rule in 40K. I don't mind the super effect it is now but I would like to severly restrict it to needing to have another unit within 3" in order to become 'unshootable'.

I feel that the ammount of Smite related issues stem forth our of cheap characters who are extremely difficult to kill and a waste of time if you do.

In conclusion I would like to see a 40K that isn't competitively bound to the cheapest choices available to your army. Because this generates the most CP. 

[Closet Skeleton]

Mutilators - Also needs a reason to exist.. 4" movement on a melee unit? Wish they would have just combined Mutilators and Obliterates. 

 

4" move doesn't hurt actually reliable stuff like Cataphracti terminators and Deathshroud. Mutilators can't pick targets because they don't know what they're good against until after they teleport in.

[intel31337]

 

Mutilators - Also needs a reason to exist.. 4" movement on a melee unit? Wish they would have just combined Mutilators and Obliterates. 

 

4" move doesn't hurt actually reliable stuff like Cataphracti terminators and Deathshroud. Mutilators can't pick targets because they don't know what they're good against until after they teleport in.

 

 

That's a fair point.

 

Still, I think they should just combined the two units again (Obliterators with decent ranged and melee options).

 

OR maybe if they gave us set results (a 1, 2, and a 3) no rolling. And we can chose how to distribute them how we like. ie, you can allocate your "3" as either +3S, -3AP, or D3. Then do the same with the "2" and "1" result to the remaining 2 stats. That way you can change the weapon to the desired stat where you need it. It still captures the fluff of weapons that can mutate and change throughout a battle, but gives player more control.

Edited January 31, 2018 by intel31337

[intel31337]

- The first thing I'd like to fix before altering any cost is set the game to a standard CP level. E.g. You play, 3 CP, you play 1000 points? +3 CP for every 1000 points. Meaning 2000 points generate 9 CP no question asked.

 

What I see as a global issue to the game currently is that CP are generated by the availability of cheap choices. It's odd, it creates the suggestion that more chaff generates more stratagical options, or more HQ would, which makes little to no sence to me.

 

 

I think this is a good solution. I would also add that you should have to spend CP to take alternative detachments that are not battalion/brigade. You should have to give up something to take a detachment that can be filled out with fewer taxes.

 

So say at 2000 pts, you have 9CP, You can have as many battalion detachments as you want, However, if you want to play a spearhead detachment, it will cost you 2 CP per detachment, so you will have 7CP to start the game. This way it sets a cap, but if you want to spam really good units, it will also take away some of your options. 

Edited January 31, 2018 by intel31337

[adreal]

- The first thing I'd like to fix before altering any cost is set the game to a standard CP level. E.g. You play, 3 CP, you play 1000 points? +3 CP for every 1000 points. Meaning 2000 points generate 9 CP no question asked.

 

What I see as a global issue to the game currently is that CP are generated by the availability of cheap choices. It's odd, it creates the suggestion that more chaff generates more stratagical options, or more HQ would, which makes little to no sence to me.

 

- The secondary thing I'd like to fix before altering Smite is the oddity that is the character protecting rule in 40K. I don't mind the super effect it is now but I would like to severly restrict it to needing to have another unit within 3" in order to become 'unshootable'.

 

I feel that the ammount of Smite related issues stem forth our of cheap characters who are extremely difficult to kill and a waste of time if you do.

 

In conclusion I would like to see a 40K that isn't competitively bound to the cheapest choices available to your army. Because this generates the most CP.

I actually like this alot, for matched play have a cp total for points played, especially as some forces don't have things like cultists to spam out cp,and then go soup

[Commissar K.]

 

- The first thing I'd like to fix before altering any cost is set the game to a standard CP level. E.g. You play, 3 CP, you play 1000 points? +3 CP for every 1000 points. Meaning 2000 points generate 9 CP no question asked.

 

What I see as a global issue to the game currently is that CP are generated by the availability of cheap choices. It's odd, it creates the suggestion that more chaff generates more stratagical options, or more HQ would, which makes little to no sence to me.

 

 

I think this is a good solution. I would also add that you should have to spend CP to take alternative detachments that are not battalion/brigade. You should have to give up something to take a detachment that can be filled out with fewer taxes.

 

So say at 2000 pts, you have 9CP, You can have as many battalion detachments as you want, However, if you want to play a spearhead detachment, it will cost you 2 CP per detachment, so you will have 7CP to start the game. This way it sets a cap, but if you want to spam really good units, it will also take away some of your options. 

 

It's certainly an option, though if there is a balance in CP I believe it becomes much easier to balance unit costs. This is also purely based on AoS' unit cost spread, which for lack of better terms just makes much more sence as certain costs found in 40K.

 

One of the prime examples I have talked about with a buddy of mine in regards to this is also 7 point Bloodletters/Daemonettes vs 7 point Plaguebearers. Because yeah, certainly Plaguebearers can attrition better but is it really that much better when you have ap -3/-1/-4 available to you? In addition how good is the Nurgle Locus if Bloodletters allready have it incorporated into their weapon profile?

 

I personally am a huge fan of being practically able to pick whatever you want. I think that the supreme command Detachment would work out okay if you have 9 CP regardless. Where I do think you have a valid point is in terms of the Warlord/Super Heavy Detachments, those indeed should likely cut something out of the CP which is logical also because there is no quantity for that army.

- Having said that though it would also be the only exception to indeed hand over some CP.

 

 

 

- The first thing I'd like to fix before altering any cost is set the game to a standard CP level. E.g. You play, 3 CP, you play 1000 points? +3 CP for every 1000 points. Meaning 2000 points generate 9 CP no question asked.

 

What I see as a global issue to the game currently is that CP are generated by the availability of cheap choices. It's odd, it creates the suggestion that more chaff generates more stratagical options, or more HQ would, which makes little to no sence to me.

 

- The secondary thing I'd like to fix before altering Smite is the oddity that is the character protecting rule in 40K. I don't mind the super effect it is now but I would like to severly restrict it to needing to have another unit within 3" in order to become 'unshootable'.

 

I feel that the ammount of Smite related issues stem forth our of cheap characters who are extremely difficult to kill and a waste of time if you do.

 

In conclusion I would like to see a 40K that isn't competitively bound to the cheapest choices available to your army. Because this generates the most CP.

I actually like this alot, for matched play have a cp total for points played, especially as some forces don't have things like cultists to spam out cp,and then go soup

 

 

--

 

Exact, I personally do not mind soup or Cultist heavy armies being an option. I do mind that they are rewarded much more as playing mono for some armies.

 

The issue really is that CP are subjective to model costs, which leads to this. It isn't perse the unit that's always too cheap or too expensive. E.g. the 10 Terminator Slaanesh double shooting bomb isn't that good if you would mix it with CSM, it would still have limited CP and all that. However the moment you mix it with the cheapest of the cheapest Troop and HQ choices it becomes immensely good because you can theoretically shoot twice the reminder of the game. At that point things get silly. 

 

TLDR the fact that unit cost influence CP is what creating the percieved 'Stratagem unbalance' and 'soup edition'. 

Competitively speaking there is no cap on CP, there is only a cap within your Codex/army on the cheapest relevant choice you have available to you. 

Edited January 31, 2018 by Commissar K.

[Goreshed]

My biggest gripe at the moment with the system itself is the ability or rather the inability of targeting characters at range. So long as one unit, any unit, is closer than the character it is safe. I'd much rather see it that so long as the character is within X amount of inches of a unit they are safe as opposed to simply "if any unit is closer".

 

As for chaos....

 

Well insert the usual request for a drop pod of similar type unit of course, because we haven't done a thread like this in a couple weeks, why not see if this doesn't get GW moving....

 

1. Drop pods (because its always on -the- list)

2. Chosen who can be equipped with whatever they want. They are Chosen for a reason.

3. Chosen as bodyguards

4. More variants of the rhino/pred/raider that are unique to chaos

5. See number 3

6. All HQ choices should be allowed to choose either power armour, terminator armour, bikes or jetpacks. GW is always going on about converting, well, let us convert!   By extension, referring back to number 3, all bodyguards should be equipped like their lord.

7. See number 3

8. Give me a flyer that isn't a flying turkey and has some sort of transport capability.

9. See number 3

[masterstrider]

Adding to Goreshed's comments, I also agree with many of your suggestions. In fact, I wrote to the FAQ team with a number of these changes.

 

My recommended changes would be:

 

Abaddon

*Why does Abaddon have D3 damage for the TALON OF HORUS? He is the 10,000 year old warlord of the baddest baddy in the bad bads. Even Dark Reapers are more consistent with their damage :cuss!

 

Special Characters:

*Chaos needs more of them.

 

HQs

*All HQ choices should be allowed to choose either power armour, terminator armour, bikes or jetpacks. (This is a no brainer).

*Allow Dark Apostle the option to choose different weapons and wargear.

*Give the Exalted Champion an Invulnerable or a 5+ FNP. Sure you can cast Weaver of Fates or Delightful Agonies on him, but no love for Nurgle or Khorne.

*Daemon Prince (anything with wings really) should be able to Deep Strike.

*Khorne DP should have one Deny psychic power a turn and +2 attacks.

 

Chosen

*Chosen who can be equipped with whatever they want.

*Can choose alternative armour and vehicles e.g. jump packs, bikes, terminator armour

*Give them a suite of 'special abilities' they can choose at the start of the game e.g. Perhaps you could have them choose between 1) infiltrate (same as scouts for marines), 2) special wargear that adds AP -1 (e.g. a chainsword/Boltgun becomes AP -1) to their weapons, 3) can advance and fire without penalty, 4) can fall back and shoot without penalty, 5) can fallback and charge in the same turn, 6) a 6+ save against any wound suffered.

*Chosen can act as bodyguards for HQs.

 

Mutilators

*Make them faster at least M8"

*More attacks to mitigate the random weapon stats.

*Variable unit sizes.

 

Warp Talons

*Warp Talons need 2 attacks base.

*And their denial of overwatch ability should work ALL the time.

*They also need to be less points. 27pts for 2 attacks and no shooting is rubbish. Shining spears are 31ppm and they can move 16-24", have AP-4 weapons, D2, can shoot and fight in melee, an can advance, shoot, charge in the same turn. Balance?

 

Obliterators

*Variable Unit sizes.

 

Demon Engines

*They need a 3+ BS/WS, especially since they degrade.

*They probably need to come with more dakka/attacks to be worth taking.

*Heldrake should have the abillity to deep strike. Also improve it's AP. Why does everything in Chaos have terrible damage and AP????????????

 

Vehicles/Transports

*Chaos needs some dakka machines.

*Chaos needs some unique upgrades to their vehicles, e.g. daemonic possession (make it overwatch on a 4+), or give it a 6+ FNP.

*Need some more vehicle choices for combat and transport.

 

Stratagems

*God based stratagems e.g. Fury of Khorne, Endless Cacophony, etc., should work on any unit irrespective of mark. We are the only army limited in who can use this. Tyranids, Marines, Eldar can use these types of stratagems on ANY unit. It's an unnecessary gimp.

*Vets of the Long War should work with Renegades...I mean seriously ?

 

Psychic Powers

*Warptime should have a longer range. (e.g. look at Quicken from the Craftworlds Codex. 18" range, for WC7).

*Gift of Chaos should be changed. It's useless to the army and playstyle.

*Diabolic Strength should have an option to cast on a unit for WC8.

*Death Hex should be WC7 not WC8. (Chaos has ZERO 3++ saves in the entire army, so our offensive needs to be much more effective.)

 

Relics

*Eye of Night: should be Either D6 damage or 1 use per turn on a 2+ to do D3 damage. Right now it's pretty lackluster.

*Axe of Blind Fury: unnecessary nerf with the cannot reroll 1s.

*Black Mace: it's mortal wounds power is very clunky. Consider making it any 6s to wound inflict a mortal wound.

 

Wargear

*Severe lack of non-random damage shooting weapons. (e.g. the only Dam 3 weapons in the army are all melee [except the Predator Autocannon and Magma Cutter] - the Helbrute/Maulerfiend fist, Mace of Contagion, Hellforged Sword/Daemonic Axe. ?)

*Some better AP across the weapon range, particularly since we lack dakka, e.g. the autocannon range is crap; warpflamers and inferno bolters are too expensive to field with no transport option,

 

Models:

*Upgrade the Havoc range so we can at least use them. The models are just dog$hit.

 

Army in General

*Chaos has no decent way to get units into melee short of making them Alpha Legion an using Forward Operatives. This is VERY limiting and unfluffy. They should have made this an army wide rule, not just limited to Alpha Legion.

*We have no dakka. Cultists, Combi-bolters, and Obliterators are our only option for massed gunfire. ?

*We clearly lack a lot of defense, we're an aggressive army. So they need to make sure that our offense is VERY good to compensate. Right now, I'd say we're about 60% of the way there. A few tweaks and the army can be very competitive - without cheesing out on using Alpha Legion.

 

That's probably the worst of it. The army is pretty good, but there are some odd things that are left out that are costed incorrectly or lack any real purpose. Right now most of the army is unusable and for something with such a fantastic range, that's a real shame.

Edited January 31, 2018 by masterstrider

[elbianc]

Possessed should have 1+D3 atacks, having a melee unit that can end up with 1 atack each is just lame...

 

EC Havocs should be able to take blastmasters

 

EC Chaos Lords should be able to take Doom Siren

 

EC Dreadnought should be able to take twin blastmaster

 

EC Predator should be able to take twin blastmaster and blastmaster sponsons

 

Im ok with the BS from daemon engines, but they should be able to move and shoot without penalties

 

CSM Daemon Prince should give the reroll 1s rule to daemons of the same god, and Deamon Prince of Chaos should give reroll of 1s to CSM with the same mark

[adreal]

Csm daemon princes should give re roll everything to models within 6" of the same legion. I'm fine with chaos Lord v captain, both are pretty good at what they do (essentially being the same thing) but we don't have a chapter master strat, so giving that rules to a daemon Prince (who costs more) would be fair

[masterstrider]

CSM Daemon Prince should give the reroll 1s rule to daemons of the same god, and Deamon Prince of Chaos should give reroll of 1s to CSM with the same mark

 

Csm daemon princes should give re roll everything to models within 6" of the same legion. I'm fine with chaos Lord v captain, both are pretty good at what they do (essentially being the same thing) but we don't have a chapter master strat, so giving that rules to a daemon Prince (who costs more) would be fair

 

They do...

 

Prince of Chaos: You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 made for friendly <LEGION> units within 6" of this model. This ability also affects friendly DAEMON units within 6", but only if they owe their allegiance to the same Chaos God e.g. KHORNE DAEMON units are only affected by KHORNE Daemon Princes.

[Commissar K.]

My biggest gripe at the moment with the system itself is the ability or rather the inability of targeting characters at range. So long as one unit, any unit, is closer than the character it is safe. I'd much rather see it that so long as the character is within X amount of inches of a unit they are safe as opposed to simply "if any unit is closer".

I largely agree but there is one reason why I'd prefer a 3-6" bubble to be a required effect. The prime reason for it is that if any unit is closer you can still lead to a visual oddity.

My opinion on the matter remains that if a guy is open in the field, thus can't find himself in LoS blocking areas or near another unit he simply said should be a legal target.

 

If anything in the 40K game visually leads to odd situations/just doesn't feel right moments it's when you go for X closer type of rules. As anyone has 360 view but somehow skips on killing a commander because he's 0.5" away while having no "bodyguard"? That aspect just visually looks dumb.

[Ishagu]

I see a lot of complaints and demands for players of an army in a very strong position lol

[Commissar K.]

I see a lot of complaints and demands for players of an army in a very strong position lol

Well the newer position still has to be proven. CA and Daemon Codex both improved overal Daemon use and nerfed certain of the most cheapest aspects.

 

Thing is really that I too think that most costs found in 8th make sence. But due to CP generation and character protection the vision is skewed.

 

What I mean by this skewed vision is that certain elites (many more in GK and AC) cant carry their cost because armies who include them over cheaper choices are CP 'handicapped'.

 

The one thing I do think CSM straight up still can ask for is a plastic Chaos Dreadclaw. That question has been around since the 2000's and funny enough SM dont even want to use their Drop Pods anymore. Assumming GW wants to continue selling them a simple Chaos Dreadclaw upgrade pack could suffice.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Commissar K.

[Khornestar]

I see a lot of complaints and demands for players of an army in a very strong position lol

 

Fair enough, but it seems like most suggestions have to do with weak units/rules. Why wouldn't you want to buff crappy stuff?