The game: "We know how to fix it!"

[Ishagu]

 

 

I see a lot of complaints and demands for players of an army in a very strong position lol

Fair enough, but it seems like most suggestions have to do with weak units/rules. Why wouldn't you want to buff crappy stuff?

Totally, but I'm seeing people calling for Warptime to get better or that Abaddon is somehow not good enough in melee. C'mon guys, that's pretty silly lol

Warptime is already one of the very best powers, and there are no infantry character better in melee than Abaddon with the exception of Valloris perhaps?

[Slan Drakkos]

Off the top of my head I want to see the following:

 

Demonettes need to get an increase to their saving rolls in combat. They're supposed to be fast as hell and hard to hit, so why are they so squishy?

 

I'd like to see characters get the option to take heavy/special weapons.

[elbianc]

 

 

I was talking about an Emperors Children Daemon Prince of Slaanesh to give reroll of 1s to daemons of Slaanesh from a Daemons Detachment, i play with 2 batallions, One of Emperors Children and another from Daemons mono-Slaanesh, and they should synergise better cause are all from the same God, a daemon player that mixes Daemons from different gods have better synergise than me, and that doesnt make sense...

 

 

CSM Daemon Prince should give the reroll 1s rule to daemons of the same god, and Deamon Prince of Chaos should give reroll of 1s to CSM with the same mark

Csm daemon princes should give re roll everything to models within 6" of the same legion. I'm fine with chaos Lord v captain, both are pretty good at what they do (essentially being the same thing) but we don't have a chapter master strat, so giving that rules to a daemon Prince (who costs more) would be fair

They do...

 

Prince of Chaos: You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 made for friendly <LEGION> units within 6" of this model. This ability also affects friendly DAEMON units within 6", but only if they owe their allegiance to the same Chaos God e.g. KHORNE DAEMON units are only affected by KHORNE Daemon Princes.

[elbianc]

. Edited February 1, 2018 by elbianc

[Goreshed]

Abadon hits like a freight train now compared to previous editions. Not to mention the potential damage of 72 a turn against Imperial if everything hits and wounds. Honestly for special characters if anything I'd want to see some undivided love for those legions that aren't aligned with one god or another (NL/IW/WB/AL) as all the other armies have a special for them. Just adding in another god specific one is rather...meh. Most of the major SM Chapters have special characters, no reason why Chaos cannot have that love as well.

 

But to me, special characters are so far down the list that they don't matter as much to me, but then again I've been playing IW since 3.5. I'd much rather see the range of miniatures that we do have now upgraded. Yes we have had many new kits and I am not knocking the new Daemon models/Death Guard/Thousand Sons/Helbrute, but our basic kits for our Terminators/Marines/Havocs/Bikes/Oblits are a decade old at least.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

lol abaddon not good enough in cc golly gee? 

 

With prescience hes getting Death to the False Emperor on 4s and he can use Fury of Khorne for 3 cp to attack twice.  You can even dump Delightful Agonies on him and he is pretty durable.  

 

golly gee why I am not running him in every list?  

[Zodd1888]

Going to say give Rubrics a way to boost damage per shot, a way to extend their warpflamer range, some form of MW mitigation, or make them a bodyguard unit.

[Stross]

I see a lot of complaints and demands for players of an army in a very strong position lol 

 

LVO said, that Eldar are still on top. Five best armies out of ten are Eldar. That is saying something. 

Totally, but I'm seeing people calling for Warptime to get better or that Abaddon is somehow not good enough in melee. C'mon guys, that's pretty silly lol

Warptime is already one of the very best powers, and there are no infantry character better in melee than Abaddon with the exception of Valloris perhaps? 

 

Well, you somewhat "envy" to our Warptime (which is not always work), we can name ton of things (and some of us here did) that we would like to have from Loyalist army in exchange of lots of unplayable units. 

And now the most nerf got only Dark Angels, now their Azrail parking turned into Azrail graveyard. And 10 Hellblasters with stratagem for 1 CP with rerolls from Azrail (and some of them still can die and shoot for Banner again) just kill Magnus in 3++ with rerolling 1's, which is now not a thing as I can presume. They wound on 3+ with rerolling 1's from Lietanant. And this is our main unit. I don't even talk about Mortarion, unless he cast on himself -1 to hit. 

Why Chaos is strong? I would say, was strong. 

Here is top tactics I know. 

1. Abaddon + 10 terminators - it was deadly until many factions got their codexes. And even before Dark Angels with 4++ bubble, Guilliman parking and Imperial guard with fearless conscripts were a big problem for them. Now even with nerf of some of these things, there are a lot of thing how to counter it, not saying only about some screen - at least they are not nerfed somehow. 

2. Magnus + Changling + Forge Tzeench Bird + Tons of Malefic Lords - nerfed. 

3. Poxwalkers + brimstounce + Changling - nerfed 

We can't play loyalists tactics as good as they are. Predators are good, but no reroll to wound.for example. No flyers at well, the dragon is useless. I know that Space marines are not pleased with Stormtalon or Stormraven now, but compare these birds with our Turkey. 

Our strong units that we can always use here: 

1. Abaddon (only way to get full rerolls for anything) 

2. Terminators (big variety)

3. Cultists (one of the useful units, but only as a screen or infiltrating bubbles,  only stratagems can make them decent)

4. Obliterators (but still depends on dice) 

And this combination: Berzerkers, Dark Apostle or Khârn, Exalted Champion. 

Havocs die really quickly, Chosen too expensive and die fast, possessed are not relayable, defilers are just fire magnets along side with other daemon engines, land raider is too expensive. Hellbrutes is good mostly as fire platform. 

There are many problem. So we need our units to be tougher or cheeper. But still, not broken, we just need them decent, to bring more interesting tactics. 

Because our OP tacticts were based mostly on broken units, like brimstounse (seriously, 4++ for these... I was the first, who told about nerfing them). 

 

 

With prescience hes getting Death to the False Emperor on 4s and he can use Fury of Khorne for 3 cp to attack twice.  You can even dump Delightful Agonies on him and he is pretty durable.  

He can't kill Swarmlord, Guilliman, Zoantropes, Neurotropes, Draigo and anything, that have 3++. Yes, he can kill 20 or so conscripts. But he can end up with not killing tactical squad. 

He can only survive mob attack or even Guilliman with 3++, 5+++ fnp and -1 to hit and still get some mortal wound from him. Two or three psykers around just kill him right there (his ability about damage reducing don't work on mortal wounds). 

He can kill Calgar only with good dices actually. 

Even Hive tyrant is a problem for him. Yes, he can take out Celestine, but who can't?  

4++ is not that big thing as you thing. And 6-12 attacks with D3 damage each is not that much thing as you imagine. He can't kill even Wywern, not saying about Land Raider. Any Bloodthirster is going to kill him and Daemon Prince with decent rolls. 

I don't say that he need an uprade. No, he is fine as he is. But he one of the few chances for chaos to become competative. I love this guy, but I would like to see some other options. Space marines have them, they are not forced to take Guiliiman, ask Commissar Gamza from Youtube about it. 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

I see a lot of complaints and demands for players of an army in a very strong position lol 

 

LVO said, that Eldar are still on top. Five best armies out of ten are Eldar. That is saying something. 

Totally, but I'm seeing people calling for Warptime to get better or that Abaddon is somehow not good enough in melee. C'mon guys, that's pretty silly lol

Warptime is already one of the very best powers, and there are no infantry character better in melee than Abaddon with the exception of Valloris perhaps? 

 

Well, you somewhat "envy" to our Warptime (which is not always work), we can name ton of things (and some of us here did) that we would like to have from Loyalist army in exchange of lots of unplayable units. 

And now the most nerf got only Dark Angels, now their Azrail parking turned into Azrail graveyard. And 10 Hellblasters with stratagem for 1 CP with rerolls from Azrail (and some of them still can die and shoot for Banner again) just kill Magnus in 3++ with rerolling 1's, which is now not a thing as I can presume. They wound on 3+ with rerolling 1's from Lietanant. And this is our main unit. I don't even talk about Mortarion, unless he cast on himself -1 to hit. 

Why Chaos is strong? I would say, was strong. 

Here is top tactics I know. 

1. Abaddon + 10 terminators - it was deadly until many factions got their codexes. And even before Dark Angels with 4++ bubble, Guilliman parking and Imperial guard with fearless conscripts were a big problem for them. Now even with nerf of some of these things, there are a lot of thing how to counter it, not saying only about some screen - at least they are not nerfed somehow. 

2. Magnus + Changling + Forge Tzeench Bird + Tons of Malefic Lords - nerfed. 

3. Poxwalkers + brimstounce + Changling - nerfed 

We can't play loyalists tactics as good as they are. Predators are good, but no reroll to wound.for example. No flyers at well, the dragon is useless. I know that Space marines are not pleased with Stormtalon or Stormraven now, but compare these birds with our Turkey. 

Our strong units that we can always use here: 

1. Abaddon (only way to get full rerolls for anything) 

2. Terminators (big variety)

3. Cultists (one of the useful units, but only as a screen or infiltrating bubbles,  only stratagems can make them decent)

4. Obliterators (but still depends on dice) 

And this combination: Berzerkers, Dark Apostle or Khârn, Exalted Champion. 

Havocs die really quickly, Chosen too expensive and die fast, possessed are not relayable, defilers are just fire magnets along side with other daemon engines, land raider is too expensive. Hellbrutes is good mostly as fire platform. 

There are many problem. So we need our units to be tougher or cheeper. But still, not broken, we just need them decent, to bring more interesting tactics. 

Because our OP tacticts were based mostly on broken units, like brimstounse (seriously, 4++ for these... I was the first, who told about nerfing them). 

 

 

With prescience hes getting Death to the False Emperor on 4s and he can use Fury of Khorne for 3 cp to attack twice.  You can even dump Delightful Agonies on him and he is pretty durable.  

He can't kill Swarmlord, Guilliman, Zoantropes, Neurotropes, Draigo and anything, that have 3++. Yes, he can kill 20 or so conscripts. But he can end up with not killing tactical squad. 

He can only survive mob attack or even Guilliman with 3++, 5+++ fnp and -1 to hit and still get some mortal wound from him. Two or three psykers around just kill him right there (his ability about damage reducing don't work on mortal wounds). 

He can kill Calgar only with good dices actually. 

Even Hive tyrant is a problem for him. Yes, he can take out Celestine, but who can't?  

4++ is not that big thing as you thing. And 6-12 attacks with D3 damage each is not that much thing as you imagine. He can't kill even Wywern, not saying about Land Raider. Any Bloodthirster is going to kill him and Daemon Prince with decent rolls. 

I don't say that he need an uprade. No, he is fine as he is. But he one of the few chances for chaos to become competative. I love this guy, but I would like to see some other options. Space marines have them, they are not forced to take Guiliiman, ask Commissar Gamza from Youtube about it. 

 

Cant kill Swarmlord and Bobby G?  Those both cost north 300 points.  That seems reasonable that a 240 point model cant 1 shot models that cost a lot more points.  Draigo vs Abaddon seems like it would be a close fight since they cost about the same.  Since Abaddon would get Death to the False Emperor I'd say he would win that fight more than he loses. 

 

Commissar Gamza... lol I cant stand that guy.  He is hyperbolic loudmouth.

[Ishagu]

Gamza is literally full of crap. If you're using him as your source of knowledge you know very little.

 

His hyperbolic video about Guilliman was really stupid, especially when looking at the LVO and other tournaments, the top of competitive play, in which Ultramarine gunlines are no where in sight of the top 8 or even top 16.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Gamza is literally full of crap. If you're using him as your source of knowledge you know very little.

 

His hyperbolic video about Guilliman was really stupid, especially when looking at the LVO and other tournaments, the top of competitive play, in which Ultramarine gunlines are no where in sight of the top 8 or even top 16.

I like how he claimed to have never lost a game for all of 7th edition yet no record exists of him winning any tournies or playing anyone of note.  

[masterstrider]

The point of this topic wasn't to fix the entire game SanguinaryGuardsman or Ishagu, or to balance everything. It was to call out some Chaos Space Marine units that were underperforming and provide some suggested fixes to make them viable.

 

If you're not going to come along for the ride and be constructive, then you can take your diatribe elsewhere. If you think Chaos is already great, fine, you have no reason to be here. Personally, I'm interested in knowning what the rest of the CSM community thinks.

 

"All members are invited to post here with constructive suggestions."

Edited February 3, 2018 by masterstrider

[Stross]

Gamza is literally full of crap. If you're using him as your source of knowledge you know very little. 

 

 like how he claimed to have never lost a game for all of 7th edition yet no record exists of him winning any tournies or playing anyone of note.  

 

Alright, then I bring the example of Russian metagame from our last tournament. Guilliman is not that often on the table (actually only a few lists), Space marines, if they are not Legion with Codex, goes into Raven Guard. Like many of us forced to go with Alpha Legion, of course, no doubt with that. And almost no one now takes Guilliman with Imperial Guard, Grey Knights or Ad Mech like it was before.

While Chaos was forced to bring broken combos, except for combo Magnus+Abaddon+Terminators - it is not broken until someone bring unnerfed Changling around.  

And even broken combo with 3 squads obliterators and Changling is not a thing now. I would like to hear, how Space Marines got nerfed, I can't remember something like this from FAQ. Just another codexes, especially Eldar become stronger. And I feel the same as Space Marines. Why? Because our Codexes were first, no one balanced the rest of them coming out. So most of the dexes was becoming stronger and stronger (but Daemonic and Custodians are not like that), so many things need to be rebalanced, but GW mostly think that if some Mutilators become cheaper, it can be bringed in the game. No. 

And with losing broken combos, Chaos again now in dice game, especially with nerfed smite. Just try to cast warptime against tyranids, for example. There is nothing in our pocket that can't be countered and no one need to build army list around it. 

Daemon Codex, by the way, don't bring regular CSM something, mostly cut many things. As well as Thousand Sons dex. So now I would see results about being "strongest army in metagame".

Except maybe combination: 3 oblies + Nurgle tree. But it is unstable thing and GW can cut us from it anytime, like it already did with Daemonic stratagem and bring a lot of confusion with "what work" and "what is not work", should we wait for another nerf or use hole in rules once again. Who knows. I would prefer to play openly with strong units. 

Because for 2000 game we can't bring more power than we already have, just maybe we could bring different kind of power for that case. 

I am sure that Space Marines would love to bring their favorite models as well if they were better. 

Draigo vs Abaddon seems like it would be a close fight since they cost about the same.  Since Abaddon would get Death to the False Emperor I'd say he would win that fight more than he loses. 

 

 Draigo still can get 2++ and he is a psyker. If Abaddon don't roll too well, he probably will end up dead. 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Stross

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Yeah maybe Draigo is better in a straight up fight.  That matchup has a lot variables but I think it is a more even fight than abaddon vs guilleman/swarmlord.  

 

Just to be clear... I think abaddon is fine.  He brings a lot to the table and has less issues than other units in the chaos codex such as mutilators/possessed/daemon engines etc.  

[ChazSexington]

 

I see a lot of complaints and demands for players of an army in a very strong position lol 

 

LVO said, that Eldar are still on top. Five best armies out of ten are Eldar. That is saying something. 

Totally, but I'm seeing people calling for Warptime to get better or that Abaddon is somehow not good enough in melee. C'mon guys, that's pretty silly lol

Warptime is already one of the very best powers, and there are no infantry character better in melee than Abaddon with the exception of Valloris perhaps? 

 

Well, you somewhat "envy" to our Warptime (which is not always work), we can name ton of things (and some of us here did) that we would like to have from Loyalist army in exchange of lots of unplayable units. 

And now the most nerf got only Dark Angels, now their Azrail parking turned into Azrail graveyard. And 10 Hellblasters with stratagem for 1 CP with rerolls from Azrail (and some of them still can die and shoot for Banner again) just kill Magnus in 3++ with rerolling 1's, which is now not a thing as I can presume. They wound on 3+ with rerolling 1's from Lietanant. And this is our main unit. I don't even talk about Mortarion, unless he cast on himself -1 to hit. 

Why Chaos is strong? I would say, was strong. 

Here is top tactics I know. 

1. Abaddon + 10 terminators - it was deadly until many factions got their codexes. And even before Dark Angels with 4++ bubble, Guilliman parking and Imperial guard with fearless conscripts were a big problem for them. Now even with nerf of some of these things, there are a lot of thing how to counter it, not saying only about some screen - at least they are not nerfed somehow. 

2. Magnus + Changling + Forge Tzeench Bird + Tons of Malefic Lords - nerfed. 

3. Poxwalkers + brimstounce + Changling - nerfed 

We can't play loyalists tactics as good as they are. Predators are good, but no reroll to wound.for example. No flyers at well, the dragon is useless. I know that Space marines are not pleased with Stormtalon or Stormraven now, but compare these birds with our Turkey. 

Our strong units that we can always use here: 

1. Abaddon (only way to get full rerolls for anything) 

2. Terminators (big variety)

3. Cultists (one of the useful units, but only as a screen or infiltrating bubbles,  only stratagems can make them decent)

4. Obliterators (but still depends on dice) 

And this combination: Berzerkers, Dark Apostle or Khârn, Exalted Champion. 

Havocs die really quickly, Chosen too expensive and die fast, possessed are not relayable, defilers are just fire magnets along side with other daemon engines, land raider is too expensive. Hellbrutes is good mostly as fire platform. 

There are many problem. So we need our units to be tougher or cheeper. But still, not broken, we just need them decent, to bring more interesting tactics. 

Because our OP tacticts were based mostly on broken units, like brimstounse (seriously, 4++ for these... I was the first, who told about nerfing them). 

 

 

With prescience hes getting Death to the False Emperor on 4s and he can use Fury of Khorne for 3 cp to attack twice.  You can even dump Delightful Agonies on him and he is pretty durable.  

He can't kill Swarmlord, Guilliman, Zoantropes, Neurotropes, Draigo and anything, that have 3++. Yes, he can kill 20 or so conscripts. But he can end up with not killing tactical squad. 

He can only survive mob attack or even Guilliman with 3++, 5+++ fnp and -1 to hit and still get some mortal wound from him. Two or three psykers around just kill him right there (his ability about damage reducing don't work on mortal wounds). 

He can kill Calgar only with good dices actually. 

Even Hive tyrant is a problem for him. Yes, he can take out Celestine, but who can't?  

4++ is not that big thing as you thing. And 6-12 attacks with D3 damage each is not that much thing as you imagine. He can't kill even Wywern, not saying about Land Raider. Any Bloodthirster is going to kill him and Daemon Prince with decent rolls. 

I don't say that he need an uprade. No, he is fine as he is. But he one of the few chances for chaos to become competative. I love this guy, but I would like to see some other options. Space marines have them, they are not forced to take Guiliiman, ask Commissar Gamza from Youtube about it. 

 

Eldar were 5/8 in the top due to how the ITC Champions Missions penalise Primarchs through the secondary missions, in addition to Tyranid players historically being less represented among competitive players and how close the LVO was to their release. The DAs did horribly at the LVO btw. I agree Abaddon isn't particularly good, though you seem undecided on this.

 

All strong units are reliant on stratagems to a lesser or greater extent - that's 8th edition. It's a good thing too, as the unit balance is much better, so there's less spam. The Cultist bomb is without a doubt the strongest CSM tactic, and it has not been nerfed (though I made the case it should be earlier). That Brimstones, Magnus, and the Changeling got nerfed was excellent from a game perspective, though I think Magnus should've retained his ability but got a larger point cost to make him prohibitive in smaller games. MoS/Endless Cacophony is insanely good and the inherent rules preference for shooting being a better option means the opportunity cost for the other ones are prohibitive unless you're talking Berzerkers. 

 

Our current strongest units are:

Combi-plasma and MoS Terminators

Cultist-bomb

MoS Obliterators

Khorne Berzerkers

Noise Marines

 

(notice how Endless Cacophony applies to all but 1 unit and Forward Operatives is used on 3 of them)

 

Space Marines, as per the codex and not BA/DA, are wholly reliant on the IG for screening units. The SM is too expensive and is too readily killed this edition to warrant the more than triple cost of a guardsman - we can take Cultists as a Troop tax or Cultist bomb. Due to this, SM lists become better the more SMs you replace with Guardsmen. More CPs, more dakka, more relative durability. SMs are good at the middle tables, but they suffer at the top because they lack certain tools. 

 

If you want actually competitive advice, I'd recommend the Frontline Gaming podcast Chapter Tactics. 

[Dracos]

I like how that guy makes for a case of a winning a Space Marine army sans Bobby G. Anyone comparing him and Abaddon are comparing apples to oranges. [biased, love the models but hate introducing Primarchs into actual table play]

[adreal]

Well I guess it comes down to what you want chaos to do. With cheap troops and some of the better strategems out there (they might be locked into marks, but marks are free) we have a strong codex and it has good options.

 

It's a good mid tier codex taken on it's own, with soup it's got some contenders, and I'm happy with that.

[ChazSexington]

Well I guess it comes down to what you want chaos to do. With cheap troops and some of the better strategems out there (they might be locked into marks, but marks are free) we have a strong codex and it has good options.

 

It's a good mid tier codex taken on it's own, with soup it's got some contenders, and I'm happy with that.

 

Mono-CSM is still incredibly powerful/top table with the right builds. I'm REALLY surprised there weren't any non-Primarch Alpha Legionnaires in the top 8. 

[Commissar K.]

First of still have to say that this edition still feels like the best yet! Granted I have not played all, I started with 3rd, did a little bit of 4th, skipped 5th, played exactly two games of 6th and skipped 7th. Having said that though, this was largely because I'm very Chaos interested and didn't want to default to any other army. But because of that have gladly accepted Chaos mixed somewhere in 6th ;) 

So again for me many of the point costs can be validated, but the prime issue for me within in the game is that HQ and Troops generate the most CP and so because of that 8th is extremely focused on that. E.g. for me the reason to not even consider Possessed or Chosen isn't perse their cost but their unit functionality. Like everybody we need some CP to actually stay in the game and have our own bursts of potency and I cannot ever obtain 'enough' of them when I do not focus on HQ and Troops, specifically/ideally the cheaper options.

As before, because I feel everyone with a tournament competitive mindset builds in this way it only highlights that cheap characters with the same character benifits as the more expensive (and hardier ones) can cause issues too, especially the cheap Smite characters where there used to be a ton of. Because I actually like where Smite is I'd much rather have the character protection bubble instead of the massive zone it is now...
 

I like how that guy makes for a case of a winning a Space Marine army sans Bobby G. Anyone comparing him and Abaddon are comparing apples to oranges. [biased, love the models but hate introducing Primarchs into actual table play]

I get where the Primarch 'hate' somewhat comes from but at the same time I don't see Magnus or Mortarion as an issue. Not even Guilliman is truely that much of a problem. The idea/hype that they are an issue to the game is actually the oppossite of what I believe. Because without accounting for Guilliman your actually handing in a lot of army potential to play either Primarch now also.

But what I want to see is to have every army get their rough equivelant. My opinion is simple on this case and indeed perhaps boring but one of the great things about this edition in 40k is that cross armies a lot of the same abilities appear which lead to great balance actually.

Same applies to Horus Heresy, one of the halmarks of it being so great comes from being Marine vs Marine so the ground level of models always have an equal change. Thus so far the only thing that really hinders that in my opinion is the way you generate CP.

Wether or not people like Daemons with their CSM you are able to generate a ton of them and have effective units with Daemons. Cultists are good CP generators also but can't even remotely compete with deep striking Daemon offensives.

 

 

Well I guess it comes down to what you want chaos to do. With cheap troops and some of the better strategems out there (they might be locked into marks, but marks are free) we have a strong codex and it has good options.

It's a good mid tier codex taken on it's own, with soup it's got some contenders, and I'm happy with that.

 

Mono-CSM is still incredibly powerful/top table with the right builds. I'm REALLY surprised there weren't any non-Primarch Alpha Legionnaires in the top 8. 

 

Yeah mono CSM can be played. Though in general I think most Chaos players like playing mixed because quite a lot of them like to completely allign with one Chaos God instead of all.

Now certainly there are the exceptions! But I do think that even AL based armies become better when they include some Daemons to infiltrate/deep strike side by side.

[Ishagu]

If we look at the LVO we can see that various Eldar combinations are overpowered. It hurt Chaos, Nids and Astra Militarum as the top 8 became variations of the same list.

 

I think the adjustment for Eldar that is sure to come will once again create a more level playing field :-)

[ChazSexington]

If we look at the LVO we can see that various Eldar combinations are overpowered. It hurt Chaos, Nids and Astra Militarum as the top 8 became variations of the same list.

 

I think the adjustment for Eldar that is sure to come will once again create a more level playing field :-)

 

I mentioned it earlier, but I think Nids did poorly because Nids have almost never been the competitive player's faction. Between its release in November (?) and the LVO, I don't think there were enough competitive players who thought they could master the codex, get a 3-colour minimum army, refine the tactics and strategies, and master their list. Whereas Eldar have been competitive almost every edition. 

 

Chaos suffered because of the LVO punishing Primarch-containing lists, yet we were still 24% of the top 100, so I think it's wrong to say were not a top tier codex. IG were represented in two of the top 8 lists, which wasn't altogether surprising, as 8th lends itself so well to mixed Faction lists. There was only a single "pure" single subfaction list, and that was the BA list. Remember, the Eldar lists were a mix of Dark Eldar, Craftworld, and Ynnari.

Edited February 4, 2018 by ChazSexington

[Commissar K.]

If we look at the LVO we can see that various Eldar combinations are overpowered. It hurt Chaos, Nids and Astra Militarum as the top 8 became variations of the same list.

 

I think the adjustment for Eldar that is sure to come will once again create a more level playing field :-)

I think that there are two factors at hand at LVO which caused this result and it was also predicted by several players that result would occur. As LVO has additional rules that arn't part of regular 8th edition rules which furthermore boost certain builds. But I do agree, Imperium, Chaos and other Xenos have problems with certain undercosted pieces. At the same time though the list itself is certainly not invincible. Ten Slaanesh Terminators with combo-flamers could have dealth with it for example. 

 

But yes, I too think that costs are a factor in there. At the same time though I also think that LVO additional rules are outside of this particular discussion as LVO rules arn't completely part of the game either.

 

From a casual to competitive perspective the CP generation applies however and so do character rules. On both a casual and competitive perspective more rewards are obtained when a player focusses on cheap HQ and cheap Troops. I doubt this was GW's initial intention to do this. However if it was I don't really get why they continue to bother with elite model designs. E.g. Death Guard Terminators, Adaptus Custodes and Grey Knights are all pieces of the game but severly handicaped by the CP generation of the game.

 

Now if CP where just a bunch of re-rolls, morale immunity and charge interrupts it wouldn't be that impactful. But what we see is that CP sometimes decide wether or not an army is competitive at all. This is very much highlighted in both Codex Chaos Daemons and Codex Blood Angels. Because of this we see the shift to 'you must have X CP' becomming more and more influentional in game design from the getgo. Which in the long term actually will affect GW sales for at least part of their market. 

[ChazSexington]

Now if CP where just a bunch of re-rolls, morale immunity and charge interrupts it wouldn't be that impactful. But what we see is that CP sometimes decide wether or not an army is competitive at all. This is very much highlighted in both Codex Chaos Daemons and Codex Blood Angels. Because of this we see the shift to 'you must have X CP' becomming more and more influentional in game design from the getgo. Which in the long term actually will affect GW sales for at least part of their market. 

 

 

Whole-heartedly agree with this. CSMs have Endless Cacophony, Veterans of the Long War, Forward Operatives, and to a lesser extent, Fury of Khorne. Endless Cacophony and VotLW should be restricted to actual Astartes (so Cultists can't use it), which IMHO would fix almost all the problems. The Cultist bomb disappears as an infantry murder machine, which I'm 90% sure wasn't what was intended. You can still drop 10 Termies with combi-plasma in, but that's ~500ish points, not 160. It should be incredible. 

 

It's not like we're the only cul(t)prits here, but it's reasonably simple to fix these problems. There are tweaks to make CSMs/SMs more competitive in a 4pt Troop model meta, such as increasing IG to 5pt and dropping CSMs/SMs to 11 base. CPs need to be more expensive for those who can spam them and be made more available for others, because 8th is the Age of the MSU Horde. 

Edited February 4, 2018 by ChazSexington

[Commissar K.]

Well the thing with Cultists remains really that it's illogical for them to be capable to obtain Heretic Astartes Legion names in the first place. But at the same time it also highlights that the design for Chaos Space Marines has a few kinks in it's evolution that have lead to this oddity in the first place.

E.g. Space Marine chapters have their Scouts who represent the step from men to Space Marine and because Chaos Space Marines don't have that and somehow are all "Veterans of the Long War" quite some narrative can't really match up yet with actual playing pieces. Same goes for how important it would be for CSM 'feel' when GW would decide to create a plastic Dreadclaw as suddenly their assaults would make more sence.

But for the game itself I believe that Stratagems don't need to be changed perse, I'd much rather see a CP standard for events so that (unit) costs in general are less of an influencer to the game as it is now. 

[Dracos]

If we look at the LVO we can see that various Eldar combinations are overpowered. It hurt Chaos, Nids and Astra Militarum as the top 8 became variations of the same list.

I think the adjustment for Eldar that is sure to come will once again create a more level playing field :-)

I played an Eldar Aspect army in 3rd as a change of pace. It was freaking brutal on power army armies. I had to put it aside as it became a non challenge to play even against Necrons. Admittedly no didn't realize just how absolutely nasty 2 units of Reapers was going to be :(