Trajann Valoris vs Lord Kaldor Draigo

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

Someone's forgetting about a certain Demon Primarch with a name carved into his rotten heart by Dr. Draigo.

 

Again, you're forgetting that the word "Daemon" is included there in the target. Grey Knights are meant to be awesome at killing Daemons. That's literally their purpose. Sadly though, Valoris is not a Daemon. He's not harmed merely by the presence of Draigo, not repelled by the Litanies of Faith, or weakened through the knowledge of a True Name, which is what Draigo uses to gain the advantage over Greater Daemons/Daemon Primarchs. 

 

Custodes, on the other hand, train extensively against every threat to the Emperor that they can. They ship in Chaos Marines, Tyranids, Orks, etc, to let them loose so they can hunt them down and kill them. They have absolutely no trust in the Astartes, so probably have had a few Imperial Fists "disappear" every so often for training purposes. Grey Knights have a singular focus, Daemons. Custodes also have a singular focus, defending the Emperor no matter the foe.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm surprised Mortarion didn't get to return to full wounds for 2CP. /s

 

/shakes fist

[Waking Dreamer]

Don't forget that Valoris won the Blood Game TWO TIMES. You know what that means? That he was litterally able to reach the throne room piercing the entire Imperial Palace defences (and that includes the whole Adeptus Custodes) not one but two time. That's enought to talk about every kind of skill that Valoris could have.

 

That's pretty impressive considering the Emperor's Throne Room would be the most defended site in all of the Imperium (?).

[Danarc]

I'm surprised Mortarion didn't get to return to full wounds for 2CP. /s

 

/shakes fist

There isn't a FAQ explaining that the stratagem can't be used to Named Character?

[Chronos Darkhelmet]

 

 

I'm surprised Mortarion didn't get to return to full wounds for 2CP. /s

 

/shakes fist

There isn't a FAQ explaining that the stratagem can't be used to Named Character?

It's no FAQ, it's the Strat itself to specify ;)

[Capt. Mytre]

 

 

 

Draigo's phenomenal feats in the Warp could only be achieved in the Warp though. Since the Immaterium feeds off and is affected by emotions, devotion and belief, Draigo with his specialised training, powerful psychic presence, and belief in the duty of the Grey Knights / Emperor - alters the very Warp itself around him. That's why Daemon's who choose to confront him inevitably loose because their resolve is less than that of Draigos. However, after Draigo passes through an area of the Warp, as is it's nature of constant change, no lasting damage is ever done - reverting back to what's relatively normality for that area.

 

His abilities would actually be more grounded once he returns to the Matterium, since the very environment of Real Space isnt directly affected by belief and emotion, but the traditional laws of physics etc.

Someone's forgetting about a certain Demon Primarch with a name carved into his rotten heart by Dr. Draigo.

Have you read Mortarion's Heart? It describes in great detail of what actually transpired during that epic battle, and it portrays a very legitimate confrontation between the two:

 

1. Young GM Draigo was the best swordsman of the GKs at the time.

2. Draigo retrieves the Titan Sword that was left on the battlefield when the previous SGM was slain.

3. Mortarion mocking Draigo, the GKs and even Janus, the newly appointed SGM discovers his opponent has layer upon layer of psychic defences against the hated witches!

4. Draigo rather, drew upon his psychic power and enhances himself, while also being amped by his GK Librarian (think Sanctuary + Might of Heroes).

5. Engaged in melee combat, in just barely deflecting / dodging Mortarion's killing strikes, Draigo's psychic reserves were being exhausted (his precog. was being overwhelmed in just keeping up).

6. Mortarion's daemonic talon feet inevitable pins down Draigo into dirt as all the Nurgle daemons around them cheer!

7. Mortarion's wings build up a swirling Vortex of Miasma around both of them (the same attack that killed the previous SGM and his Paladin retinue).

8. As Mortarion is gripping Draigo's helmet to rip it off and expose him to the Miasma -

9. Draigo uses his last ounce of psychic power to set Mortarion's robes a light with psychic flame - which quickly engulfs the Primarch's entire body due to the swirling Vortex.

10. Mortarion still gripping Draigo's helmet, is enraged and curses the cunningness of this "GK witch"!

11. During the Daemon Primarch's anger, Draigo realises a moment where Mortarion's psychic defences are down.

12. In that brief moment Draigo psychically and silently slips Mortartion's True Name into the Daemon Primarch's mind.

13. Violently, Mortarion trembles, and then erupts from the inside shattering his wings, body and armour to pieces - disintegrating all the Daemons around them as well!

14. As the wheezing Daemon Primarch is found broken bodied in the dirt...slowly dissolving back into the warp, Draigo approaches and gazes upon the exploded chest cavity with the erratic beating of a black heart inside, Titan Sword in hand...

 

So yeah, while Draigo was fighting valiantly, he was clearly loosing the battle, and only had the slimmest chance of victory because he was passed down Mortarion's True Name (a very closely guarded GK secret). Actually, while in choosing Draigo to be the new SGM, and thereby claiming the Titan Sword and the secret of the True Name (as only the SGM was to ever posses the knowledge), he admitted to the other GMs as he prepared for battle, they would likely need to chose another SGM before the day was done...

 

 

A demon primarch is vastly more powerful than pretty much anything, he's basically an army by himself  and would be ridiculous if someone soloed him - the fact that he was bested at all is the point.

 

In the end, we have no tales of Valoris, only Draigo. Can't compare two individuals when one has almost no coverage. Come back to me when Valoris has some stories written about him. It's basically a known vs an unknown.

[Waking Dreamer]

 

A demon primarch is vastly more powerful than pretty much anything, he's basically an army by himself  and would be ridiculous if someone soloed him - the fact that he was bested at all is the point.

 

 

When did Valoris acquire a True Name as to which Draigo will use to banish him at the very last moment? Because, FACT - that's exactly how he "bested" Mortarion....

 

Draigo running around Mortarion inflicting ZERO wounds, and getting fatigued doing so for 99.9% of the confrontation - only to LITERALLY get STOMPED under foot into the dirt, is not even close to an argument to unequivocal say Draigo defeats Valoris. If Valoris has a True Name that Draigo is proven to know then what you're saying might have some kind of point, otherwise... saying I forgot Mortarion's confrontation with Draigo (even though I have now proven I know A LOT about it) is not an argument at all. 

 

 

 

Someone's forgetting about a certain Demon Primarch with a name carved into his rotten heart by Dr. Draigo.

 

Again, you're forgetting that the word "Daemon" is included there in the target. Grey Knights are meant to be awesome at killing Daemons. That's literally their purpose. Sadly though, Valoris is not a Daemon. He's not harmed merely by the presence of Draigo, not repelled by the Litanies of Faith, or weakened through the knowledge of a True Name, which is what Draigo uses to gain the advantage over Greater Daemons/Daemon Primarchs. 

 

Custodes, on the other hand, train extensively against every threat to the Emperor that they can. They ship in Chaos Marines, Tyranids, Orks, etc, to let them loose so they can hunt them down and kill them. They have absolutely no trust in the Astartes, so probably have had a few Imperial Fists "disappear" every so often for training purposes. Grey Knights have a singular focus, Daemons. Custodes also have a singular focus, defending the Emperor no matter the foe.

 

 

It's good to keep things in perspective and within context.  

 

 

 

 

In the end, we have no tales of Valoris, only Draigo. Can't compare two individuals when one has almost no coverage. Come back to me when Valoris has some stories written about him. It's basically a known vs an unknown.

 

 

Hmm...

 

 

Don't forget that Valoris won the Blood Game TWO TIMES. You know what that means? 

 

That he was literally able to reach the throne room piercing the entire Imperial Palace defences (and that includes the whole Adeptus Custodes) not one but two times. 

 

That's enough to talk about every kind of skill that Valoris could have.

[Prot]

 

 

 

Hmm...

 

 

Don't forget that Valoris won the Blood Game TWO TIMES. You know what that means? 

 

That he was literally able to reach the throne room piercing the entire Imperial Palace defences (and that includes the whole Adeptus Custodes) not one but two times. 

 

That's enough to talk about every kind of skill that Valoris could have.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I won't belittle this accomplishment because it is an amazing display of... infiltrating a compound and system you are extremely familiar with. This is something I have no doubt Draigo could not do, but it includes a very different skill set from a toe-to-toe cage match.

 

I love that there is all this fiction we can draw from. Some of it is suspect though; it largely depends on the author and storyline. 

 

I recall part of the Imperium Secondus had a great moment where Guilliman is seriously threatened by a handful of intiltrating Alpha Legion pretending to be Ultra's back from the war.... does that mean Guilliman can be beaten by a 'common marine'? In a way... yes. Context is pretty huge here though. 

[Capt. Mytre]

 

 

Don't forget that Valoris won the Blood Game TWO TIMES. You know what that means? 

 

That he was literally able to reach the throne room piercing the entire Imperial Palace defences (and that includes the whole Adeptus Custodes) not one but two times. 

 

That's enough to talk about every kind of skill that Valoris could have.

 

 

He isn't the only one to have done a successful Blood Games run, the feat itself isn't that amazing. It isn't even necessarily a test of combat prowess, given one of the successful runs was done via only hiding and avoiding sentries.

 

As I said, we're comparing two characters, one with backstory, the other with next to nothing. Come back to me once Valoris has some solo feats of his own. This discussion is just going in circles anyhow, given that anything Draigo fights will always be demons, and thus dismissed as it apparently isn't comparable. Draigo once fought for 3 days straight, by himself in a bottle neck, against an entire army and held - could Valoris do that? We don't know, but we do know that Draigo can and did - and that's what I'm putting my stock in.

[Gentlemanloser]

Come back when valoris reforges a force weapon with his bare hands...

 

Then we can talk.

 

And now on to burning down nurgles gardens and slaying slaneeshs favorite handmaidens.

 

Blood games? Nothing compared to all that.

[Lord_Caerolion]

And Valoris is basically specifically picked by the Emperor to be the leader of his personal bodyguard. While not explicitly stated, we see in Emperors Legion that the Emperor is implied to influence what Custodes fill what roles, given Valerian is unable to become one of the Companions, as the Emperor had another role in mind for him. As such, Valoris is the Custodes that the Emperor himself has said "yep, that one. This guy is going to be the person directly responsible for my safety against all threats".

 

Still, these sorts of threads will always just devolve down to author intent, and whatever the plot requires to happen. I lean towards Valoris because of his Custodes status rather than Astartes, and the training and experience he would have to have in his role, and I tend to personally downplay the feats of Draigo due to the Mary-Sue nature of the writing. I can fully understand and agree with other people taking the claims at face value, and yeah, if you do that, Valoris is most likely going to go down. He'll give a good showing, but as the good GentlemanLoser says above, he's burned down Nurgles Garden itself, and recreated a nemesis force weapon using his mind alone. However, I've given my views on these events already, but I don't think I'll ever convince the members of a Grey Knights forum that their best special character will get roflstomped by some newcomer.

[Waking Dreamer]

 

I love that there is all this fiction we can draw from. Some of it is suspect though; it largely depends on the author and storyline. 

 

I recall part of the Imperium Secondus had a great moment where Guilliman is seriously threatened by a handful of intiltrating Alpha Legion pretending to be Ultra's back from the war.... does that mean Guilliman can be beaten by a 'common marine'? In a way... yes. Context is pretty huge here though. 

 

 

Yes, considering context, confrontations such as when Draigo "bested" Mortarion is largely irrelevant when it comes to a match up such as this.

 

ABC logic doesnt always apply, and just because Draigo BANISHED a daemon Primarch, it doesnt give him a free ticket to say solo Gulliman head-to-head, a non warp-boosted Primarch who could be "less powerful" than a Daemon Primarch.

[Shagah]

So, IMO the arguments of who is the bigger badass in the fluff is currently impossible to answer. As someone said earlier - it is comparing a known with an unknown.

 

As far as I can tell (not having seen the Custodes Codex) Valoris has some of his feats listed along with a description of how superior he is to anything walking/crawling/rolling/flying, living or dead, kind of like most descriptions of most alpha characters in most codices. So not a lot to go on there. I am sure others will correct my limited knowledge if there is more.

 

Old Draigo on the other hand has had several involved stories published about him also emphasising how much of a mean machine he is.  Unsurprisingly most (all?) of these stories are slightly to a lot OTT - just like every story told in the 40k Universe.  Denigrating things written about him I find a bit rich when the same scepticism is not applied elsewhere. 

And yes the 5th Ed codex I know is considered by many (most?) as the epitome of codex overkill both in rules and fluff, but to my mind this has been blown out of proportion over time as some kind of cautionary tale, when if you go back and look objectively it was no worse in any real sense than a number of other codices before and since (Eldar every codex from 4th on for rules for example).  Not saying that what was said about him should now just be accepted as written, just that the same salt used when reading about him should be applied to others as well.

 

I am also not saying that fluff wise Draigo is more badass than Valoris, because, as stated at the start, we (or at least I) have yet to read anything of significance about Valoris. 

 

I also have no idea who would be the better on the table top, although the consensus seems to be "depends".  That being said I noticed on the Custodes threads Valoris seems to be considered a 'sub-par' choice by many, while Draigo remains a solid choice for GK.  Probably says more about the Codexes than it does about the characters.

[Capt. Mytre]

So, IMO the arguments of who is the bigger badass in the fluff is currently impossible to answer. As someone said earlier - it is comparing a known with an unknown.

 

As far as I can tell (not having seen the Custodes Codex) Valoris has some of his feats listed along with a description of how superior he is to anything walking/crawling/rolling/flying, living or dead, kind of like most descriptions of most alpha characters in most codices. So not a lot to go on there. I am sure others will correct my limited knowledge if there is more.

 

Old Draigo on the other hand has had several involved stories published about him also emphasising how much of a mean machine he is.  Unsurprisingly most (all?) of these stories are slightly to a lot OTT - just like every story told in the 40k Universe.  Denigrating things written about him I find a bit rich when the same scepticism is not applied elsewhere. 

And yes the 5th Ed codex I know is considered by many (most?) as the epitome of codex overkill both in rules and fluff, but to my mind this has been blown out of proportion over time as some kind of cautionary tale, when if you go back and look objectively it was no worse in any real sense than a number of other codices before and since (Eldar every codex from 4th on for rules for example).  Not saying that what was said about him should now just be accepted as written, just that the same salt used when reading about him should be applied to others as well.

 

I am also not saying that fluff wise Draigo is more badass than Valoris, because, as stated at the start, we (or at least I) have yet to read anything of significance about Valoris. 

 

I also have no idea who would be the better on the table top, although the consensus seems to be "depends".  That being said I noticed on the Custodes threads Valoris seems to be considered a 'sub-par' choice by many, while Draigo remains a solid choice for GK.  Probably says more about the Codexes than it does about the characters.

 

Exactly, however there are no details about what Valoris has done. They are just things like "Spearheaded the assault on X, wiped out Z" etc. If anything, they portray him as a powerful military mind. There are no solo stories other than a brief outline that he completed two blood games, which in itself is meaningless given it isn't proof of combat prowess but of strategical thinking.

 

Valoris very well might be better than Draigo, but until we have something to compare the two with, Draigo wins.

[~Drakzilla~]

There is a passage in one of the newer BL novels featuring Valoris, in which he’s described as “the deadliest warrior in the Imperium” by one character. (Either a Custodes or an Inquisitor, I forget.)

 

There’s also a scene where he effortlessly wrecks a bunch of hulking combat servitors, but that’s probably not a good metric of comparison.

[Lord_Caerolion]

So, IMO the arguments of who is the bigger badass in the fluff is currently impossible to answer. As someone said earlier - it is comparing a known with an unknown.

 

As far as I can tell (not having seen the Custodes Codex) Valoris has some of his feats listed along with a description of how superior he is to anything walking/crawling/rolling/flying, living or dead, kind of like most descriptions of most alpha characters in most codices. So not a lot to go on there. I am sure others will correct my limited knowledge if there is more.

 

Old Draigo on the other hand has had several involved stories published about him also emphasising how much of a mean machine he is.  Unsurprisingly most (all?) of these stories are slightly to a lot OTT - just like every story told in the 40k Universe.  Denigrating things written about him I find a bit rich when the same scepticism is not applied elsewhere. 

And yes the 5th Ed codex I know is considered by many (most?) as the epitome of codex overkill both in rules and fluff, but to my mind this has been blown out of proportion over time as some kind of cautionary tale, when if you go back and look objectively it was no worse in any real sense than a number of other codices before and since (Eldar every codex from 4th on for rules for example).  Not saying that what was said about him should now just be accepted as written, just that the same salt used when reading about him should be applied to others as well.

 

I am also not saying that fluff wise Draigo is more badass than Valoris, because, as stated at the start, we (or at least I) have yet to read anything of significance about Valoris. 

 

I also have no idea who would be the better on the table top, although the consensus seems to be "depends".  That being said I noticed on the Custodes threads Valoris seems to be considered a 'sub-par' choice by many, while Draigo remains a solid choice for GK.  Probably says more about the Codexes than it does about the characters.

 

It's the fact that the fluff for Draigo is so much more OTT than for basically every other character. There's a reason he's infamous on the internet. I mean, Calgar has, as his "crowning moment of awesome", him punching an Avatar to death, that had already been shot at. Creed is an amazing strategist. Dante led the defence against a Hive Fleet, and duelled the Swarmlord. Draigo was sucked into the Warp after defeating a Daemon Prince, and not only survived what should be the equivalent of being shot with a D-Cannon, but now travels around the Realms of Chaos, burning down everything he finds, slaughtering everything in his path without a scratch, so much that apparently Chaos is now terrified of him. There's a difference in scale. Most show impressive, at times overdone, victories. Draigo makes a whole faction his whipping-boy.

[Gentlemanloser]

And with the seed of possibly being a mind trap by the chaos gods basically dismissed with our 8th codex.

 

We *know* all of Draigos rumoured triumphs are actually real.

 

Plus now he's even more badass and can breach warp space himself.

 

Valoris simply cannot touch that.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Exactly which puts him even more firmly into Mary Sue territory, and almost a bad fan-fiction.

 

"And then Calgar stood at the tip of the prow of his battle barge, and had them fly into the Hive Fleets, so he could punch them, and he punched so many that the Tyranids ran away, and now the Tyranids automatically flee whenever Calgar arrives!"

 

Of course Valoris can't touch that, as written. Nothing can touch that. Nothing should touch that, and it should never have been done in the first place. It's Mat Ward at his worst, that sadly has been largely kept and left untouched, rather than trying to explain it in a way that makes sense (like what they did with Mortarion), instead just leaving it as "but he's the awesomest guy evar!"

[Soder]

Someone’s gotta do a face-off battle and report back! ;)

[Capt. Mytre]

Someone’s gotta do a face-off battle and report back!

 

In game 1v1, Draigo wins most of the time on average. He just sits back and smites/purge soul/Vortex of Dooms Valoris. Valoris can only shoot back.

 

In actual combat, Valoris does have an advantage and will win if he doesn't die to Draigo's fights phase, due to the one off ability Moment Shackle allowing him to fight a second time. Valoris also has rerolls to hit and wound of 1, can either heal D3 wounds or fight a second time, and has S5/T5. Draigo has rerolls to hit and with hammer hand, wounds on 2's as well. Draigo deals flat 3 damage, meaning he needs 3 hits to deal damage against Valoris to kill him - however he will probably have used smite, meaning he needs only smite + 2 hits. Valoris can counter this somewhat by using his heal after the smite to bring him back up to 7W, but can then no longer fight a second time.

 

Valoris needs on average 4 hits to make it through (using average damage of 2) to kill Draigo. Unlikely, but entirely possible.

 

Overall, it depends entirely on how the game is setup. Do they start 24" away from each other, or do they start 6" away? Whoever goes first will probably win.

[swordofmandulis]

Can't really say much different from above, the psychic powers throw a huge spanner in the works with this question lore wise.

 

When we start to look at the lore being written around the most powerful psykers, it quickly becomes apparent that they are comfortably the most powerful beings in the imperium, anyone that's read the Mephiston stories or Devastation of Baal will attest to him being capable of melting any non psykers without any difficulty at all, Calgar, Dante, the greatest heroes would be no match for him.

 

Draigo would likely be in this kind of category also, and unless his opponent has some serious psychic resistance, would be torn apart by mind bullets or reduced to a gibbering mess before swords were even drawn.

 

Now i think it's likely Valoris would have this kind of resistance which is given a token gesture with the 6+ to ignore mortal wounds.

 

I think Valoris should be the biggest badass in the imperium (not counting G man) but he has some competition from Draigo, Mephiston, Voldus. I don't see the non psychic marines like Calgar or Dante lasting long against TV

[Prot]

I think Draigo overall is a better unit, and for the points.

 

In the face off I would assume Valoris would have the one shot access to Divinity strat to try to deny a draigo power cast.... but anything outside of 1" I think Draigo flat out wins. In combat I should really roll this out taking turns and record it on youtube... I'll do maybe... best of 5 rounds (one round being they each take a turn going first). This way it will end the debate. lol

[swordofmandulis]

Just rolled up a best of 5, Draigo having Gate, and Hammerhand, although I think him having hammerhand in most normal games is unlikely as it has very little utility for him and he will always have Gate IMO. Valoris had access to the moment shackle.

 

Draigo won the roll off so got the first turn giving him an advantage over the 5 rounds. Obviously I played it that he did psychic, shooting and charged, no running away.

 

It was incredibly close and only one of the fights was settled in one round of attacks (Draigo took that one).

 

Valoris took it in the 5th, the second fight is very powerful as you can imagine. T5 is also huge making Draigo only wound on 3's if he doesn't cast hammerhand successfully.

 

Both total bosses.

 

Update, 2 best of 5's rolled up so far, Valoris has taken both in 5.

 

Further update, Valoris took the third round 5-0, but Draigo then pulled one back winning 4-1 and making it 3-1 to Valoris.

[Gentlemanloser]

Isn't Mortarions true name, well Mortarion. ;)

[Waking Dreamer]

Isn't Mortarions true name, well Mortarion.

 

GM Drystann Cromm: "Mortarion...Mortarion was not the name the blessed Emperor chose for the 14th Primarch. He was named by another, though I shall never speak of him".

 

Silence fell over the assembled Grandmasters. Mordrak gasped, "He has a True Name...and you know it?"

 

GM Drystann Cromm: "I do. In a matter of speaking".