Stormravens - Are they still worth it?

[Toxichobbit]

Just curious, why is hiding it back a bad thing? The thing can move 45" when full and while it can rapidly lose movement, if you hide it back 45" then it should be able to hide effectively behind anything and because it flys, it doesn't care about the line it takes. With 45" movement, even if you want to get within multi-melta half range, you still have an effective range of ~56" which as I seem to think is what? Just shy of 5 Foot? For infantry wanting to charge, that still gives them an extra 3" for getting out, 6" of their standard movement (I assume you are using standard marines here, not terminators of the like) which then from there that means depending on what you want there is thus:

 

For melee units, if going for a safe charge of 7" (safe as in likely) this means you have a range of about 61" which is OVER 5 feet and you can even go beyond that if you just want to deliver your package and get 81" which is over 7 and a half feet! Most tables aren't even that long even across the DIAGONAL! How can you NOT get in range if hidden in the backlines? Ether you are on some titanic boards not fit for 2k points or your terrain is naff!

 

The Storm Raven still needs to survive an enemy shooting phase before it drops off it's cargo. It's not doing that if Hive Guard or Dark Reapers decide to attack it. A Storm Raven can be hidden at the back and have a threat range of the entire board, but if it can't move forwards and deliver it's cargo reliably then it's a very expensive set of guns.

 

Furthermore, Tyrant Guard have a potential threat range of 41-47" (depending on Advance rolls). They ignore LoS. Any competant player deploys them centrally. Assuming they're 6" in from the board edge (to account for them finding terrain to hide behind), that gives you about half a foot in either corner to deploy the Storm Raven where they can't get to it. You'd better hope there's nice big LoS blocking terrain in one of the corners otherwise you've opened yourself up to other Tyranid shooting.

 

Of course, even if you can deploy the Storm Raven safely you still need to move it forwards and survive for it to be worth a damn. Which means you need the Hive Guard gone because they will do a number on it.* Unfortunately, a good player keeps them out of LoS, in a -1 to hit bubble and surrounded by cheap Termagants to block deep strike type attacks. A Whirlwind or Thunderfire Cannon can do some damage, but it's so many wounds to chew through that it takes too long. By the time you deal with the threat, your Storm Raven has been a waste of points because it's spent most of the time hiding.

 

Dark Reapers are similar, because they can stay out of LoS then just move out to shoot the Storm Raven without penalty on the turn it moves into range. They are easier to take out though, as Craftworlds don't have the numbers to keep them safe from deep strike type attacks. The Storm Raven itself might be able to threaten them because it moves far enough to position itself to shoot them and doens't have a mountain of Termagants blocking it's placement.

 

* they don't destroy it on average, but they do enough damage that it won't take much to finish it off.

[Ishagu]

Dark Reapers are broken and overpowered. They'll receive a massive Nerf soon so don't use that as a measure of anything. GW pays attention to the Meta.

 

Like I pointed out, a single Raven with expensive Cargo will receive a lot of attention. If one is always failing you bring two. It's the same with Primaris Repulsors.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Ishagu

[Claws and Effect]

My reason for not using mine is twofold.

 

1) As mentioned, a single Stormraven is a priority target. It likely is carrying a unit that you want close. Any savvy opponent is going to kill it before it can deliver its cargo.

 

2) More than 1 gets expensive quickly.

 

Since a single Stormraven isn't reliable as a transport it gets relegated to gunship duty. I can take a Fire Raptor for just a few points more, so the Stormraven isn't worth it for me.

[Deafbok]

How do they "feel" playwise compared to the old drop pod assault, by the way? I'm considering making two my next purchase for this edition once I have enough cash saved, and trying to get something similar to the latter rather than the RG mass infantry infiltration that's been spectacularly unsuccessful for me so far. 

And what synergises well with them that doesn't ride in them? I think the key here is making sure you have several "threat" units to try and split opposing fire. 

[Toxichobbit]

My reason for not using mine is twofold.

 

1) As mentioned, a single Stormraven is a priority target. It likely is carrying a unit that you want close. Any savvy opponent is going to kill it before it can deliver its cargo.

 

2) More than 1 gets expensive quickly.

 

Since a single Stormraven isn't reliable as a transport it gets relegated to gunship duty. I can take a Fire Raptor for just a few points more, so the Stormraven isn't worth it for me.

 

While I agree that two Stormravens would help, this is very much how I feel about actually doing it. With the game size I usually play one Stormraven with decent contents is expensive, two Stormravens with decent contents are an army*. That's not necesarily a bad thing, but it certainly limits the builds I can do with a Stormraven if I have to bring two every time I want to play with the model, which in turn means I'm going to use them less as I enjoy variety in my lists. I also don't own a second Stormraven and have no intention of buying one to make up for this editions inadequecies, so double flier will have to wait until I'm feeling enthusiastic enough to buy and assemble a Stormeagle. I'll still use my current Raven from time to time, but on the whole I don't expect much of it; the skies over my board are just too dangerous.

 

*not literally. But they're taking up so many points that the rest of the list is built around them.

[Ishagu]

You're not committing to a tactic and complaining it doesn't work? I can easily fit two Ravens with units inside and still find points for many other things in a 2k list.

 

If you're only running one then you really have to bring other distractions. That's up to you as a player. Know your army

[old git]

The dropping of the old reserves rule really hurt fliers. If you don't get first turn (that old chestnut again) 'ravens are likely going to be shot off the table before they do anything, regardless of the role you want them to fulfil. I recently took part in a one day event with a flier wing plus support (two 'ravens and two 'talons). Some unfortunate dice meant I didn't get a chance to use the 'ravens to full effect before they were either destroyed or reduced in effectiveness so much they might as well be destroyed. You might say this takes the pressure off the rest of your army but at over 25% of the available points (600+ in 2k) it hurts when you don't get to use them.

[Claws and Effect]

You're not committing to a tactic and complaining it doesn't work? I can easily fit two Ravens with units inside and still find points for many other things in a 2k list.

 

If you're only running one then you really have to bring other distractions. That's up to you as a player. Know your army

I only own a single Stormraven, and I don't feel very inclined to spend $80 Or so to lock myself into a play style.

[Ishagu]

The dropping of the old reserves rule really hurt fliers. If you don't get first turn (that old chestnut again) 'ravens are likely going to be shot off the table before they do anything, regardless of the role you want them to fulfil. I recently took part in a one day event with a flier wing plus support (two 'ravens and two 'talons). Some unfortunate dice meant I didn't get a chance to use the 'ravens to full effect before they were either destroyed or reduced in effectiveness so much they might as well be destroyed. You might say this takes the pressure off the rest of your army but at over 25% of the available points (600+ in 2k) it hurts when you don't get to use them.

They would be too powerful if they couldn't be targeted until they arrived. They would rule the meta as they'd have no counter.

[Ishagu]

 

You're not committing to a tactic and complaining it doesn't work? I can easily fit two Ravens with units inside and still find points for many other things in a 2k list.

 

If you're only running one then you really have to bring other distractions. That's up to you as a player. Know your army

I only own a single Stormraven, and I don't feel very inclined to spend $80 Or so to lock myself into a play style.

Put something else on the table that is as much a target. You can't blame an opponent for correctly choosing what to shoot at. Alternatively only put tacticals or other weaker infantry in the Raven to make it seem like less of a major play.

I run two Repulsors filled with Hellblasters and a flashy Sicaran Venator. The opponent regularly can't decide what to fire at, and no matter what one of those tanks WILL be destroyed early.

[old git]

Previously, anti-flier weaponry had the interceptor rule, which gave you a chance to have a pop at an arriving flier with those weapons. Now everything has a chance to take them down, a -1 to hit isn't much of a downside (depending on the relevant BS skill of course).

[Ishagu]

How many anti flyer weapons with Interceptor were available to armies? Only Tau and a few limited Marine options existed.

The Raven has good weapons, a good stat-line and a fair cost. It's not auto win, it's not guaranteed to work. The onus is on the player using it to make it work.

 

If you fill a single unit with 300 point of Terminators and a Contemptor Dread you need to prepare for a lot of firepower heading it's way.

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

You're not committing to a tactic and complaining it doesn't work? I can easily fit two Ravens with units inside and still find points for many other things in a 2k list.

 

If you're only running one then you really have to bring other distractions. That's up to you as a player. Know your army

I only own a single Stormraven, and I don't feel very inclined to spend $80 Or so to lock myself into a play style.

Put something else on the table that is as much a target. You can't blame an opponent for correctly choosing what to shoot at. Alternatively only put tacticals or other weaker infantry in the Raven to make it seem like less of a major play.

I run two Repulsors filled with Hellblasters and a flashy Sicaran Venator. The opponent regularly can't decide what to fire at, and no matter what one of those tanks WILL be destroyed early.

My Fire Raptor is as much a target.

 

The other factor is I play Raven Guard. I have access to a means of getting units where I want them that doesn't require a transport. Anything I can put in a Stormraven I can SFTS for 1CP. Except dreadnoughts, and the only one I want moving forward has a 9" movement.

 

The Raven Guard strategem is what made my Stormraven obsolete more than any other factor.

[Toxichobbit]

You're not committing to a tactic and complaining it doesn't work? I can easily fit two Ravens with units inside and still find points for many other things in a 2k list.

 

If you're only running one then you really have to bring other distractions. That's up to you as a player. Know your army

 

Refusing to not buy a second £50 model (plus potential new stuff to transport) to play a model I already own isn't "not committing to a tactic". It's not being a slave to GWs bad balancing. If I had a second Stormraven then I'd happily give it a try. But I don't and I'm not going to go out and buy a second one to make up for the first's inadequacy. Also bare in mind that just because you can fit two Ravens in 2k doesn't mean the same applies to me. In the sixty plus games of 8th I've had so far with my Marines I've played two at 2k. Try fitting two Ravens in 1,500 and the list is basically built around them. It's not that it's not a viable strategy, it's that they stop being an element of your list and become it's focus.

 

Simply put, I shouldn't need to run the Stormraven in pairs to be viable. Multiple Ravens being an option - fine. Multiple Ravens being mandatory because one can't do it's job - unacceptable. I don't mind having to take multiples of cheap things like Gaunts, Fire Warriors, Rhinos etc, but I object to such an expensive (points and money) army centerpiece such as a Stormraven + passengers needing multiples to work. It's worth noting that I don't think the Raven is bad or over-priced, rather it's the counters that I'm facing that are the problem. Reapers & Hive Guard are (imo) just too strong and/or underpriced at the moment. I have exactly the same issues with other vehicles or expensive units (Predators, Vindicators, Terminators etc) against Tyranids & Aeldari. The only difference there is that they're cheaper and I already own multiples of them, so the redundancy of running a couple really helps. Which nicely leads on to....

 

I've already aknowledged what you're saying about multiple targets. I do it all the time and have been doing it long before I ever posted on these forums. Lets face it, threat saturation isn't exactly a complex concept for your average gamer to grasp. The problem is finding the correct balance of threat management between the Raven and other things in the list without breaking the bank (see my point about list size above). I've found Predators, Vindicators and the like just aren't high enough threat to get my opponents to target them over the Raven and it's passengers. A Land Raider loaded to bare is, but it's also another massive chunk of points. I've considered running the Raven empty to lower it's threat, but at that point I think Talons are just a cheaper option (plus I already own three Talons). I've also considered toning down the passengers, but not hit the sweet spot with that yet that balances making the Raven worthwhile vs making it too tempting of a target. It might just be a case that given the cheap counters to it that I regularly face, the Raven isn't viable in games below 2k. That sucks, but I'll accept it and move on (though I will also point out how useless it is to me in any relevant threads, like this one).

 

With all due respect, you repeating the same thing about taking multiple threats isn't helping. I read it the first time, I agreed with it and I've explained why it's not working for me.

[Ishagu]

OK, is the TC using Raven Guard?

The Fire Raptor has a different role so isn't really a comparable unit.

 

Toxichobbit:

 

Do you think a single Knight is a bad investment? I could remove one in a single phase unless my opponent rolls well above average.

The TC mentions Dark Reapers - currently one of the most overpowered units in the game. How competiive is his meta?

 

IF he wants to be highly competitive with Ravens then yes, he should bring two. This is nothing to do with the Raven's balance, it's about redundancy. If you commit to a strategy without redundancy then when it fails it's entirely on you.

 

The original question is "Are Raven's worth it?" The answer is Yes.

He didn't ask if the Fire Raptor is better, he asked about Ravens. Yes, they are worth it and they can function at a highly competitive level or dominate friendly tables. They are NOT auto wins or Meta dominating, however. Dark Reapers specifically are undercoated and over-powered, even more so as Ynnari. If TC is only playing against this faction then he needs to be very careful with his army selection and tactics.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Ishagu

[old git]

The introduction of 'anything can hurt anything' is both a good and bad thing. A simple bolter could never damage a 'raven before 8th, now it damages it on a 5+. I'm in general agreement with Hobbit. One 'raven is probably worth it's points but having to take two (redundancy) eats into available points too much, making them not worth it.

[The Unseen]

You don't need 2 ravens to make it work, you just need another suitably threatening vehicle to make your opponent choose what to deal with.

While there aren't too many things big and threatening enough to split attention with a Raven, their are a few.

A land raider, a walking relic contemptor, a sicaran, etc, could all work for that.

But any vehicle/monster, if it's the only target for big guns, it isn't going to survive to do anything.

 

I would second not putting a super valuable unit in a Raven, it makes it too juicy. For BA in 7th I ran 10 scouts and a sanguinary priest, it would hurt things, but it was cheap, and not a high priority, so it wasn't seen as threatening as say assault terminators.

[Claws and Effect]

If you're running a Stormraven empty as a pure gunship, then the Fire Raptor has the EXACT same role for a similar cost.

 

I've found that the Stormraven doesn't work for me as a transport.

 

I am disinclined to buy a second one just so one of them can MAYBE get their passengers disembarked.

 

Making the statement that Stormravens are still worth it and then following it up with a very specific way to use them to make them work isn't very helpful.

 

Do they work? Sure. But not for everyone equally. It does NOT work for me, so I shared that fact and explained why.

 

I very pointedly do not use many vehicles. In any given game I will take either the Stormraven or the Fire Raptor, but not both (because I don't like that many points tied up in 2 units). Since the Raptor pulls it's weight better than the Stormraven, it usually gets the call.

[Toxichobbit]

Toxichobbit:

 

Do you think a single Knight is a bad investment? I could remove one in a single phase unless my opponent rolls well above average.

 

No, I don't think a single Knight is a bad investment. If I take a Knight it's as much to absorb fire as it is to do damage, so I expect it to be destroyed early. I'm ok with that because I'm using it to give other units valuable time to do their job. If I take a Stormraven, it's not to be a fire magnet because it won't absorb as much firepower as a Knight. It's there to get units to where I need them. Specifically Assault Centurions and a Dreadnought. If it gets destroyed early it doesn't do it's job.

 

The TC mentions Dark Reapers - currently one of the most overpowered units in the game. How competiive is his meta?

 

Wait, what?

 

You are talking to me, right? You have been addressing me when talking about taking two Ravens, redundency and not committing to a tactic? You have been framing your responses within the context of my reasons for finding the Raven useless and why I find taking two unacceptable?

 

If so, then why are you now moving the goalposts to the context of the OPs meta? If not, then there's nothing more to discuss. I've never once said that the Raven is useless in the wider context of other people's metas and experiences, only within the limited context of my own.

 

IF he wants to be highly competitive with Ravens then yes, he should bring two. This is nothing to do with the Raven's balance, it's about redundancy. If you commit to a strategy without redundancy then when it fails it's entirely on you.

 

Again, wrong context. If you're going to discuss why I'm finding the Raven useless and why I won't take two, then do so. Don't start bringing other metas into it while ignoring what I'm saying. Same thing with this new "highly competitive" caveat. You've never mentioned highly competitive before when telling me I should be using two Ravens, now you are. Have you been assuimg that we all play highly competitive games with enough points to take two Ravens in all the previous replies?

 

The original question is "Are Raven's worth it?" The answer is Yes.

He didn't ask if the Fire Raptor is better, he asked about Ravens. Yes, they are worth it and they can function at a highly competitive level or dominate friendly tables. They are NOT auto wins or Meta dominating, however.

 

What's a Fire Raptor got to do with it? I've never mentioned a Fire Raptor.

 

Again with the talk about the TC. I've only ever talked about the Raven and my experiences with it, so it's fair for me to assume that if you've been replying to me to tell me I need two Ravens or whatever, you're doing that within the context of my experiences. I've not once talked about the Raven being useless for the TC. I've never said the Raven is useless in general. I've said it's been useless for me, within the context of the meta I play and the threats I face. Big difference. If you're arguing that two Ravens is a good idea for redundancy, or that the Raven isn't useless in general, then you're arguing with the wrong person.

 

Dark Reapers specifically are undercoated and over-powered, even more so as Ynnari. If TC is only playing against this faction then he needs to be very careful with his army selection and tactics.

 

Agreed.

 

If you want to continue this discussion with me, then please drop all this talk about highly competitive and the TC. Actually address the things I've said, not what you feel comfortable arguing against. That means Reapers, Hive Guard, smaller games than 2k etc. It's all in my previous posts, please re-read them before replying. I'm more than happy to be enlightened and proved wrong about my opinion on the Raven. I bought the damn thing, I've assembled the damn thing and I'll eventually finish painting the damn thing. I don't want it to sit on a shelf gathering dust, I want it to be useful in my games. If you can help me with that then cool, If all you want to do is tell me to buy a second Raven while backing that up with game sizes I don't play and a more competitive meta than the one I play in, then honestly, I don't see the point in us talking about it.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Toxichobbit

[Race Bannon]

Aaaand I think we can step back a little bit to look at the overall picture before the conversation turns to News And Rumor level discourse:

 

Overal, The Stormraven does have value, relative to the owner's experience and meta.

 

Further tactical discussions involving other units deserve their own threads in the Tactica forum.

[Toxichobbit]

How about we move the discussion on to a couple of points that have been raised then.

 

The passengers of a Stormraven. I'd personally be especially interested in effective passenger combinations that lower the threat level of a Stormraven. Something to bring it on par with ... say a Predator or Venerable Dread.

 

Stormraven redundency. Simply taking multiple Stormravens isn't an option for everyone no matter how much we'd like it to be. So what other options do we have that can force an opponent into difficult targeting decisions without breaking the points bank.

 

There's been a few suggestions for both of these already in this thread but I think there's further merit to exploring them more in depth.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Toxichobbit

[SyNidus]

Alright guys, lively discussion. My meta is quite competitive, especially now since we're gearing up for our first ever mid-large scale tourney.

 

My personal experience has been that stormravens have become increasingly useless. They almost always get shot down (especially against Eldar) and they've gotten so expensive it's hard to justify it's worth.

 

This is why i came here to see if perhaps someone somewhere is doing something different that works. I used to run them in pairs, but this was before the price increase. Even then it was a little bit hit and miss because when you run 2 ravens like that, you've got to build your army around that. And then the dark reapers hit and you're screwed. My latest lists forgo them entirely. Which is a shame because i have 2 that i love.

 

How about we move the discussion on to a couple of points that have been raised then.

 

The passengers of a Stormraven. I'd personally be especially interested in effective passenger combinations that lower the threat level of a Stormraven. Something to bring it on par with ... say a Predator or Venerable Dread.

 

Stormraven redundency. Simply taking multiple Stormravens isn't an option for everyone no matter how much we'd like it to be. So what other options do we have that can force an opponent into difficult targeting decisions without breaking the points bank.

 

There's been a few suggestions for both of these already in this thread but I think there's further merit to exploring them more in depth.

I like this direction. Let's see where it goes.

[SydonianDragoon404]

At first I liked that chapter approved made some of the stuff in our codex that seemed under costed more expensive, and decreased the price of other options. Those other options are still not any good, and the points increases just made our faction worse and more expensive points wise. That's all it did. Then GW went and released the Guard, Nid, and Eldar codexes with far more undercosted and broken :cuss in it to add on top of the problem. Now, our only competitive options we had before are more expensive, and our crappy options got cheaper but are still overcosted and crappy compared to what these new codexes got. 

 

Same old :cuss. I really hope the FAQ in march fixes some of this. My meta is getting increasingly competitive because of the all of these codex releases coming out with incredibly broken internal and external balance, and my SM army has had a string of nothing but loses since chapter approved. 

 

The storm raven, for its use as a transport/gunship hybrid, is too damn expensive for what it does when the options the points needed by other factions to destroy is far less. Especially when you take the transport contents into account if you're putting anything worthwhile inside it. 

[Firepower]

Question: At one point level does a Raven become viable?  At what level do multiple Ravens become viable?  Is there a ceiling at which Ravens become a bad investment?

 

The third question is what really interests me.  Yes, Eldar can blast them out of the sky without breaking a sweat even if their army consists of 3 dimwitted babies and a sentient roll of toilet paper, but I learned in 2nd edition not to set standards by how powerful Eldar are (the more things change, the more they stay the same).  But at some point level, most armies will have enough points to pour into every field, from melee to anti infantry to anti armor.  So, is there a sweet spot where you can comfortably afford to bring one, without a guarantee that most armies will have a counter to blast it out of the sky turn one?

[Race Bannon]

On a hunch (based on impressions from looking at a LOT of lists around here) ... 1500 is where one SR is either awesome or trash.