Tactica: Rubric Marines

[Nym]

Hi folks,

 

I had my first codex game on friday and thought it would be a good idea to create a dedicated thread to share our experiences on units, since the other threads are a bit messy.

 

I'd like this thread to focus on our favorite Dust bunnies (and maybe their terminator brethern), but feel free to talk about other units if they have some synergy with Rubric Marines.

 

I'll start with the units I brought to my most recent game :

 

10-man "bolter" Rubric squad : 8 with Inferno bolters, 1 with Soulreaper Cannon, 220pts

 

This squad was meant to grab objectives and started on the table.

 

I used to split it in 2 squads of 5 with 1 Soulreaper each, but since we can't do that anymore I tried a big squad.

The Aspiring Sorcerer had Boon of Mutation and used it on a nearby Exalted Sorcerer 3 times, with success.

 

The squad killed a dozen Bloodletters with their shooting (across 3 turns) and failed to kill a Dark Apostle in close combat (I fell back the following turn).

They were decimated by a few surviving Bloodletters (12 or so).

 

My feelings : fighting against Daemons for the first time, the first thing I noticed was that these guys were basically overcosted Chaos Space Marines against targets with just an Invulnerable save. They're as worthless as ever in close combat, and as soon as you try to shoot in Rapid Fire range, they're done unless they can obliterate their target (which is unlikely, as their firepower is really low).

 

I really didn't like them. For their cost I could have run 55 Cultists, whose firepower AND resilience would have been greatly superior against any target except Terminators and Toughness 6-7 units with a 5+ or better save (and even then, the difference is only marginal).

 

9-man "warpflamer" Rubric squad : 6 with Warpflamers, 2 with Inferno bolters, 265pts

 

This squad was meant to strike hard and was deployed in the Webway.

 

I used to run them in a rhino or with Forward Operatives. They've never disappointed me so far.

Coming out of the Webway on turn 3 with no valid target and no more Warptime / CP, I could only shoot the 2 bolter guys after they came in.

 

I used them to bubble-wrap my Scarab Occult Terminators, to block incoming charges by a Khorne daemon prince and a Skull Cannon. My opponent tried to charge them with a Rhino first, but overwatch took his last 5 wounds. He then sent the Skull Cannon, which took 7 wounds and died... Eventually, he realised that his Daemon Prince could reach my Scarabs with a 10" charge and succeeded, killing all of them (5) and piling into my Rubrics. They ended up killing the Daemon Prince on turn 5, but had to fall back and do nothing for a turn.

 

My feelings : these guys rock, as always. I think running less than 6 Warpflamers might be a bad idea, as I really felt 6 were needed to reach "critical mass". 7 or 8 might even have been a good idea.

 

However, I was also running Tzeentch Flamers in this game (summoned), and despite being awesome, I think our Rubrics pale in comparison to these beasts. Being able to shoot in close combat, to deepstrike AND to shoot, to fall back and shoot, to move 12", to ALWAYS overwatch even if the ennemy is 9" away, etc... Rubrics just cannot compete.

 

I'll probably run Warpflamers Rubrics again, but only because I own 20 Rubrics and love the miniatures. For competition, I think Tzeentch flamers are the superior choice (especially with a Tzeentch Herald nearby, which makes them true murder-machines).

[Zodd1888]

I sent a pretty similar breakdown, regarding Flamers vs. Rubrics ans standard CSM vs. Rubrics, to WH FAQs e-mail.

 

I thought it was important to show that the majority of shots used on Rubrics are the same vs. CSM in a game, and they end up taling the same 5+ save because of the rend on cannons/plasma. I also explained the variance of Flamers vs. Rubrics with theirs, as Flamers offer far more for fewer points.

 

If any of you feel the same way please, in your own words, send e-mails to 40kfaq@gwplc.com. If they fixed the values on PA/TDA troops to greater balance the disparities TS wouldn't need anything for quite some time.

 

I do agree regarding WF baseline at 5-6. 17 -2AP hits on 3+/5++ character/infantry models is enough to typically take a character out when combined with Soul Reaper fire. I've probably killed more units on Overwatch than with Webway right now though.

 

I also think the spicy Rhino is effective against certain armies (ie. Overwatch strat, Ad-mech due to multi-damage being prevalent, etc.) But less effective for others. Don't rule it out yet! It's also helpful to block LOS if your boards have laneways between buildings.

 

As an aside, SOT are far closer to what they should be valued in points. They still need a drop but the cost of TDA is almost entirely warranted from the savings of CP by not using Webway.

 

Disclaimer: I'm not saying Rubrics are bad, just that there are existing options far superior that show massive disparities in point values.

[Kite Senet]

The analysis so far seems to disregard the Aspiring Sorcerer. I am wondering, is it being overlooked in this analysis or is it implied that the extra Change is really that minor?

[Nym]

My personal opinion so far (only 2 games with the new rules) is that Aspiring Sorcerers with Change powers are nice, but not great (because WC are way too high) and somewhat uneeded.

 

If they don't start on the table their powers are virtually useless.

 

I never run les than 4 full fledged Psykers, which is enough to cast ours 5 or 6 mandatory powers.

 

Finaly, Perils of the Warp still haven't been errated, which means that an Aspiring periling will kill himself and at least 3 Rubrics, on average... And himself + 5 Rubrics at worst,which is nuts.

[Prot]

Nym, nice article. I was just thinking of writing it up, but you did a great job. 

 

I appreciate your honesty, even if it rubs some people the wrong way. I have to mostly agree with my own experiences. The game is largely a horde game of chaff, surrounding the real meat. Chaff imho is still too strong in this game, and in 8th edition it's (point for point) too strong. This is where Rubrics really don't do well. And many armies you run into are like Daemons that have some access... something to a reslience factor that overrides, or diminishes the points you put into an AP-2 bolter.

 

I also agree they are a funner unit, and the flamers are better. I see almost no point in taking non-flamer variants, because otherwise most armies really have no issue with the AP.

 

Flamers are in a very good spot in 8th. The only thing I slightly disagree on is the amount. They are so incredibly expensive with Rubrics, I tend to take 4 in a 10 man squad.

 

On having a psyker in the squad: There's just better, more economic ways of doing this. It's certainly a plus of the unit though.

[Ahzek451]

Pretty much feel the same about rubrics. Sent an email myself along the same lines stating where power armor sits in 40k and comparing a normal marine to a rubric. Pointing out that all is dust is not as durable as one would think. Plus other stuff. I don't feel bad at all about having a "free" psyker in rubric squads. Seeing as they tend to blow up every other game and take a few rubrics with them.

 

In my experience, all is dust doesn't actually come into play that often. You have an expensive, elite unit that just asks for something with more than damage 1 to be thrown at it. Even more so with the scarab terms. It just so happens that a weapon thats good at taking out a normal terminator....is usually more than damage 1. All is dust is a minor bonus IMHO. And so is a 5++. No grenades, a little slower when moving, no bolt pistols. Yeah we could use a points drop.

 

For the cost of 10 rubrics with just standard bolters and gear....you can get 30 tzaangor.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Dividing it down by unit doesn't necessarily work, certain units in vacuums are always going to be better then others. 

 

Example of a list I took yesterday:

 

Ahriman

Exalted on foot (helm of third eye)

Exalted on foot (dark matter crystal) 

20 man unit of rubrics with 4 warp flamers and 2 soul reapers, and warpflame pistol

Two 10 man units with Soul reaper and 8 bolters, pistol/stave for aspiring. 

 

Mutalith

Forgefiend (no plasma face)

Defiler (havoc launcher, twin heavy bolter)

Maulerfiend (Lash tenderils)

 

The 20 man rubrics unit in webway infiltration

 

This list is super rubric heavy, I have only used it once since the codex came out, and it functions fine but if you need volume fire you need to get it elsewhere, the warpflamers do their job against hordes just fine denying a save even in cover to most horde units. but it requires distance after deep strike (warp time!) 

The bolters are quality; NOT quantity. Forgefiend and defiler help in this list make up for that. Mutalith helps grind melee units if need be though I am debating swapping mutalith for something else, the forge/defiler/mauler are all staying as they are all incredibly good especially in a list like this. 

This list runs on "toughness overload", basic D1 weapons are incredibly ineffective against this list. my basic infantry barely care, and my tanks / walkers either straight up dont care or barely care. To effectively kill anything in this list you need D2 weaponry or more, most lists dont have ludicrous amounts of multi-damage guns so this list is hard for some to deal with, and all of my tanks/walkers gain back health automatically, everything in the list has  a 5++ invulnerable save, or better depending. 

The only model I question is the Mutalith, though Its quite good for its points cost and also fairly hard to deal with. (its a daemon engine in all but name)

[Ahzek451]

Lack of d2? You havn't run up against much reaper spam/ynari then

[Sonoftherubric21]

Lack of d2? You havn't run up against much reaper spam/ynari then . So annoying.

 

Not so much "lack" so much as "I have 50 models on the table that ALL require you to fire D2 or more at them!" 

 

I have not seen a reaper spam list in my local meta no, but there are harlequins and regular eldar I contend with. 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

​I do think that when comparing rubrics to other units we need to take 8th's shortcomings into account as well. The flexibility the different FOCs bring creates a meta that is almost the opposite of 7th, instead of a big deathstar with summoning we are seeing armies that go wide cherry pick the best units and rely on volume. Flamers are a great unit that's being overlooked a little because most daemon players are fixated on 1st turn charges. But objectively most codex even the strongest ones are only adding a handful of units to a soup.

 

The analysis so far seems to disregard the Aspiring Sorcerer. I am wondering, is it being overlooked in this analysis or is it implied that the extra Change is really that minor?

 

I do think the ability to deny a psychic power is something that should be noted. They really should have added a rule to our legion tactic where we either get a save vs. perils, or could remove a rubric within a certain distance with power failing regardless of the result. instead of our army exploding (had my first game with the new book yesterday and guess what it still sucks lol).

 

Lack of d2? You havn't run up against much reaper spam/ynari then . So annoying.

 

Reapers are objectively broken. I own a lot of armies and I can say they are hands down the best unit I have access to. I want them and the ability to stack hit modifiers nerfed badly because its been three editions since I could show up with Eldar and not be that guy.

 

edit: @Sonoftherubric21 - the elder/ynnari lists that were showing up at lvo would put out around 54 d2 shots just from the reapers on the first turn. It's stupid lol.

[Zodd1888]

Part of my issue defensively is volume of fire, then quality of fire.

 

There is more than enough D1 shots on the board that end up making the 2+ that Rubrics end up with relatively moot, you're still going to roll 1's and they hurt more on a 20+ point model. If it was +1T and +1 to Saves I think that would go miles in the way of helping us deal with the overabundance of S3/S4 shooting from hordes.

[Ahzek451]

And don't forget combat. Sure 40 rubrics might do well against shooting depending on your meta, but a lot more higher damage weapons exist mostly in the fight phase, where we suck already. It really just depends on your local meta. But I try to make judgements based on a relitively diverse competative environment.

 

As Black_star stated, a rubric based army would get trashed by the eldar reaper spam list. Even if you come in via webway. Getting sick of running into it myself. Forces my hand to move toward tzaangors and daemons. Competative armies just push you into those cheap hordes.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

What are people's thoughts on the pistols for the aspiring sorcerers? I've always loved plasma pistols and wanted to take them on Aspiring Sorcerers so really happy about being able to take them now, even if almost all of mine are now ilegal due to now only having force staves and most of my current ones being the old metal model with sword.

[Zodd1888]

Plasma pistols I think are a excellent weapon for a few reasons. Great use against light vehicles and monsters, something we struggle with, in MSU configuration.

 

I also love Warpflame pistols. D6 auto-hits when locked in a melee can pull out some wounds at -2 Rend. These are fewer in my lists generally, but given how few Rubric squads I'll field now I think I'll probably drop them onto most squads.

[Raven1]

If I have the points i spring for warpflame pistols. For two reasons one auto hits on charges and auto hits during the combat phase. I think the inferno bolt pistol is more effecting in shooting in general but I usually use mine in the charge phase so it the warpflamer pistol does a birlt better of a job.

[Sonoftherubric21]

And don't forget combat. Sure 40 rubrics might do well against shooting depending on your meta, but a lot more higher damage weapons exist mostly in the fight phase, where we suck already. It really just depends on your local meta. But I try to make judgements based on a relitively diverse competative environment.

 

As Black_star stated, a rubric based army would get trashed by the eldar reaper spam list. Even if you come in via webway. Getting sick of running into it myself. Forces my hand to move toward tzaangors and daemons. Competative armies just push you into those cheap hordes.

 

If THAT was part of my meta i would legitimately tell that person to bugger off.  That is crazy, reapers are pants-on-head stupid. Just saw what they do. 

 

Id understand one unit, but when your taking huge units ad nauseam thats...wow......better have a talk before game for that one. 

 

Id totally still take a unit of rubrics against that but its in a tank, deepstrike or bust.....sounds like. probably deepstrike for guaranteed safety. 

 

My local meta has *ALOT* of marine players, 2 admechs, 1 eldar and 2 harlequin players, LOTS of daemon players, several death guard players. to give an idea.  as well as several necron players. 

 

My meta ranges from Competitive to casual but usually sits around "semi competitive" so you are getting reasonable effective lists without them being infuriating to fight against. 

 

Generally when it comes to melee they are obviously not great, but warp flamers disusade the charge, the engines can help dig them out of melees, defilers, mutalith, and Maulerfiend are competent enough to make due and keep the particularly nasty units away from my Rubrics. If all else fails? dig em out with sorcerers, tzaangors, or exalted/princes. 

 

 

[Ahzek451]

Well if you deepstrike, you lose out in decent shooting as you will try and deploy out of the intercept range. Thats where they kill you. The eldar intercept with reapers....ugh. Damage 2 guns and so many of them. Bye bye rubrics. Makes you think though. A 10 man rubric unit strictly with boltguns and base gear.....you can get 30 tzaangor for the same price.

 

Yeah I dont really have a choice. Its competative or no play for me. So I have to think about codex's at its best and worst. And where i wish gw would pay a bit more attention to things. Overall im fine with the codex competative-wise but if i have to nitpick, i wish exalts had a mechanic that made them cast better and a drop in points for rubric units.

[Zodd1888]

Interesting concept out there on the Rubric Marines as all or nothing in terms of weapon options, ie. Bolters or Flamers, not Bolters and Flamers.

 

I think it may be reasonable to take a few Bolters as ablative wounds to help increase the survivability of the flamers you've paid for. Removing those models first gives your flamers more time on the board at a lower cost. 10 in a Rhino with 5 or 6 Flamers means that even if popped you've still got some shots, and only lose 20 point models instead.

 

Secondly, Tzeentch Flamers are undercosted. They're literally twice as good at half the price of a Rubric. 16 or 17 for a Rubric and 32 or 34 for a Flamer. Sounds good to me.

[Skerr]

My last 10 Rubrics have a 6 bolter, 1 SRC 2 flamer, 1 pistol load out. My first 2 10 man had no flamers and with SRC in each. I bought a fourth kit with a 5 man flamer. I used 3 lower torsos to convert three of the farting Exalteds (just cant get behind these) i had. They turned out pretty good.

 

It gives men some flexibility to switch out weapons for smaller or single squads.

 

Problem is i have 2 faction colors. Metallic blue and a cool white (hermatic blade inspired but more white).

 

Now that our dex is out i got inspired and thought i might go four faction colors adding a mettalic red basecoat and a straight up black basecoat with the gold and silver trim and all.

 

I have enough Rubrics and Exalted Sorcerers/ Sorcerer that i could break them all out amongst all 4 and give them fluff themes like:

 

Metallic blue: Rubric and SOT heavy. Ahriman

White:10 man Rubrics with 2 flamers, Tzangoor heavy.

Metallic red:10 man Rubrics, Helforged pre heresy stuff from FW.

Black: 5-9 man flamer Rubrics, deamons engines and summoning.

 

I was thinking of doing Magnus in all 4 and have a second Ahriman (originally was going to do him in white. I might do in all 4 as well (one representing leader of all the other dissassociation by no commitment.)

 

I got 40 tzangoors and am toying with half in metallic red half in white to keep them apart. A new LoC inspired DP with Tzangoor head for the white faction.

 

This would also help me keep track of all seperate units but truth be told i had hard time deciding between these four colors 12 months ago and obviously have not fully committed to one color. I even got custom black transfers for my white faction and will likely experiment with making my own for the black faction. I can use the stock transfers both 1000 sons and preheresy for the metallic blue and red.

[Nym]

Interesting concept out there on the Rubric Marines as all or nothing in terms of weapon options, ie. Bolters or Flamers, not Bolters and Flamers.

 

When the index first came out, I tried to mix Bolters and Flamers several times, but I was always disappointed.

 

When I use pure Warpflamers, I like to move, advance and sometimes, move and advance again with Warptime. That gives me a potential 20-30" threat range. If I have Bolters in the squad, they can't shoot. The more I have, the worse this strategy becomes.

 

With Bolters, I will usually footslog in order to use the Soulreaper asap. Any Warpflamer I put in there will rarely (if ever) get used. And when I get charged, 2 Warpflamers are usually not enough to save my squad.

 

However, as you pointed out having 1 or 2 Bolter guys acting as abblative wounds in a Warpflamer squad is nice I think.

[Panzer]

Yeah mixing weapons with different traits in the same units is rarely optimal. T'au player learned that a long time ago with their Crisis Suits already. ^^

[WarriorFish]

Given that most opponents would like to charge Rubrics to stop them shooting I'm guessing a couple of flamers in a 10 man squad is a prudent consideration? I think I might prefer to have them in a more fire support role with more squads, but baby steps as I haven't painted a squad up yet :P

[Are Verlo]

I feel there are many valid concerns regarding the rubric marines. They are a bit too costy or as someone suggested the all is dust does not provide adequate protection.

 

But some of the anecdotes presented here could easily have been solved by looking at the rubrics as a part of the whole army and not one isolated unit.

 

Example: The OP tells of how the blood letters inate 5++ turned his inferno bolters into overpriced boltguns. I do not know the number of bloodletters he faced. But a big unit of rubrics can get support by a 18" death hex. This would have killed lots of letters. The same can be said about cultist. Cultists + hex vs letters = dead letters. But It is hard to actually get 55 cultists into range. 

 

TL:DR The rubrics are overpriced by a bit but should not be compared vs other units in isolation :-D

[Ishagu]

Isn't that simply a case of targeting the appropriate unit? Daemons in general are unaffected by AP modifiers because most of their saves are the Invuls. That's not to say that AP modifiers aren't useful. Those same Boltguns would remove any saves from Guardsmen, even in cover, and really hurt MEW and TEQ infantry.

[Zodd1888]

Comparing troops that share similar roles is fair. This whole in and out of a vacuum is far too rigid a concept for analysis. If we looked this way in the real world, or scientific community, we would lack innovation and would neglect equality. It's fine to look at roles, values, variables, but to neglect and place things out of comparative reach is a unique way to look at things.

 

I compare two sports cars in a vacuum, both with the same engine, but one out performs the other for some reason on the road. Do I then claim in a vacuum they're the same so it's moot? Do I look at the road? Is it the rest of the moving parts? Without discussion and analysis we can't compare or identify why one car is superior to the other, or what changes nees to be made bring both things to an equal footing.