Your hopes for White Scars in FW's Malevolence

[Laughingman]

 

I hope no jetbike. It would be jarring when all the others are essentially on foot (which also tends to look better imo). Also, in the spirit of 'Legions are more than their commonest tropes' it'd be nice to have the Scars be more than just 'the bike guys', which having the only biker Primarch would help perpetuate.

 

Sadly, WS are the biker guys. They love the speed and are horsemen raiders at heart. However anyone who views them as just this is missing out, the fluff makes them a lot more complex

 

Jaghatai on a bike will be AWESOME and probably not too jarring next to Sanguinius who will have friggin' WINGS!

 

 

 

I like to image they were more then simply mounted warfare specialist , HH book six described them as excellent scouts and trackers, often assigned to the forefront of the great crusade piecemeal in such a role. Hopefully this role is explored in greater detail in the upcoming book. 

[b1soul]

That's a good a point...

 

Terrain where jetbikes or (worse) ground bikes are advantageous would be quite limited I'd think. The Scars have to excel in a few other areas to be a competent legion.

 

The seem quite proficient at fast-paces naval maneuvres.

 

I would also think they're good at scouting and ambushing in general. They have a hunter theme, which fits the Mongol inspiration. IIRC, Mongols treated warfare as a form of hunting and a Mongol wargame was to encircle prey on the steppes during a mass coordinated hunt.

 

The Scars are also, in general, good swordsmen...a bit like their DA and EC cousins.

[bluntblade]

We might get Torghun or Hibou to be a Sagyar Marzan character as well as mainline Scars.

[b1soul]

I'd prefer Hibou and Jubal for now

 

Shiban at the Siege

[SixOfOne]

It'll be interesting to see what they do with Jaghatai. I feel it will be difficult to speculate about him without making him too similar to Fulgrim and Corax (Which is what people here seem to be coming up with). I would like it if he had a rule similar to Guilliman, but where he gains initiative every turn, not WS. A fighting style type system could work as well. That being said, hit and run is a big part of the White Scars. The problem is making him unique. Corax has super H+R and is only fragile when in melee, Angron is a glass cannon, Fulgrim is a melee beatstick but fragile out of combat. FW should really avoid to-hit penalties though as they're too often broken. We also face the problem that the statline he has is dependant on price and abilities. Jaghatai is easy to make too strong because we know very little about him, and the only times that he's really portrayed are positive. Sanguinius suffers from the same, but for slightly different reasons.

 

In terms of characters, Qin Xa and Torghun/Hibou Khan are what I expect. We could get Yesuegi or completely new characters, but I find that less likely. Out of those, Qin Xa will be a melee character so I expect the other to be more of a support. A character themed around each RoW would be accurate.

[bluntblade]

I'd prefer Hibou and Jubal for now

 

Shiban at the Siege

Apart from anything else, Shiban at the Siege will likely be the height of his powers.

[The_Stray_Idea]

I’m hoping the scars will be a pleasant surprise. I don’t think they will dwell on the all biker theme. I would like to see a good terminator unit come out of it. A rule like reroll run distances or can run and shoot would be a good fit.

 

A character on foot and a character mounted would really be the best of both worlds and offer a little something for everyone.

 

As for the Khârn I don’t think he needs to put do Corax for hit and running. I think a noticeable hammer of wraith will go a long way. Maybe a way of generating extra attacks in the same way the Custodes paragon spear works. I agree with the lighter armour 3+/5++ would make sense as long as he has the speed to avoid a storm of fire in the opening turns.

 

I’m exited to see how they handle the legion.

 

Stray

[lokkorex]

I kinda hope the Khan is sort of a mix between Fulgrims martial skills and Corax movement, maybe lesser Weapon Skill than Fulgrim but higher Initiative, as well as Hit & Run.

Maybe Armour Save 3+? I think Angron feels a bit lonely...

[SixOfOne]

I kinda hope the Khan is sort of a mix between Fulgrims martial skills and Corax movement, maybe lesser Weapon Skill than Fulgrim but higher Initiative, as well as Hit & Run.

Maybe Armour Save 3+? I think Angron feels a bit lonely...

 

That would make him I9 though, which is pretty ridiculous. The fastest primarchs so far are Fulgrim followed by Corax. Hit & Run is a definite and additional charge bonuses are likely. I think a 3+ armour could work, especially if he has access to a jetbike (If so, he will only have the base Primarch movement without it) as it would possibly make him T7. Then again, Angron has a 3+ save because his armour isn't really power armour, as opposed to the rest of the Primarchs. To be honest, I think that the main thing that will differentiate Fulgrim from the remainder of the Primarchs is the Jetbike. Without it he is too similar to at least Fulgrim and Corax. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but he needs a unique identity.

[b1soul]

Angron and Russ have WS9

 

I honestly think I9 fits Khan...what is he if not fast?

[Kasper_Hawser]

Not sure why I'm still participating after having been traumatised by 7th edition, but I'm still all for fluff fitting the crunch.

 

I hope we're all not just putting Khan on the speed trope. Why not discuss his wargear as well? Based on Scars, he definitely uses a sword, a tulwar which is like a scimitar. Also has  majestic artificer armour that may or may not be terminator grade, but enough to run circles around Mortarion.

 

Like Kurze, I think he should have a vulnerability to heavy armour, so his sword should be S:user. Against tarpits, perhaps something like Mortarion, getting an attack for everyone in BTB with him.

 

A crazier rule I can think of, though would be blatantly unfair, would be to reduce attacks by 1 every turn to a minimum of 1. Similar to Horus reducing strength and Guilliman reducing WS.

[b1soul]

Perhaps reduce 1 attack per round if he rolls a 5 or 6?

[bluntblade]

I kinda hope the Khan is sort of a mix between Fulgrims martial skills and Corax movement, maybe lesser Weapon Skill than Fulgrim but higher Initiative, as well as Hit & Run.

Maybe Armour Save 3+? I think Angron feels a bit lonely...

Should be a lesser weapon for the sake of fluff; neither Ferrus not Vulkan had a hand in the forging

[b1soul]

Well, just because Ferrus or Vulkan had a hand in the making, doesn't necessarily mean it's inferior. Could be though...

[Laughingman]

 Always wondered what the Khan used as a sidearm, it was not really discussed much, kind of assumed some sort of archaeotech pistol (or more likely a Archaeotech rifle, that was modified into a pistol for a Primarch use). If the designers want to make him extra fluffy, give him a Brace of pistols ( standard issue among cavalry before the invention of repeating firearms), I Imagine Chigorian horsemen used analogous weapons before the coming of the emperor.

[b1soul]

I recall he actually has Chogorian black powder antique pistols...probably more for show

[Ashur]

I recall he actually has Chogorian black powder antique pistols...probably more for show

 

That could be an interesting option. A very good archeotech pistol, superior to other sidearms, but ony a limited number of uses.

 

By the way, do we know the release date for this rulebook?

[SixOfOne]

Malevolence is due out at the end of this year with the likely latest date being the 2019 HH weekender. 

 

A limited shot pistol doesn't really work due to the nature of the game. If it is single use then that's ok, but it would need to be really quite strong to be worth it. That doesn't really fit the idea of 'black powder' pistols. Remember that Chogoris is a feral world and thus unlikely to have archeotech. That begin said, there's a lot of ways that FW could get around that. It would also work if his ranged options are provided by the jetbike, not his main equipment.

 

Reducing attacks should not be a thing as it completely unbalances things in a way similar to 'to-hit' penalties.

 

I see a difference between WS9 and I9. WS9 just means that the person is an incredibly good melee combatant, which fits Angron and (kinda fits) Russ. I9 would make him faster than Fulgrim and a big part of Fulgrim's melee potential is based on the fact that he is the fastest Primarch on base ability. I think I8 is probably the reasonable cap fro primarchs (In the same way as S+T7).

 

I think that the best place to start really is his battlefield role. Is he going to be a blender like Corax and Angron , or a duelist like Russ. He's going to have at least 5 attacks and will be S+T6, so he's not going to be a tank. If he's a blender then his statline will probably be something like WS7, BS5, S6, T6, W5/6, I?, A5/6. If he's a duelist then he'll likely have WS8 but only 5 attacks.

[b1soul]

Why can't Khan be faster than Fulgrim?

 

Khan is known for speed. Fulgrim is fast but he's known more for flawless technique.

 

If it were up to me, I think Fulgrim should be WS9 and Khan should be I9

 

EDIT: Oh, I think you're saying I9 would break the tabletop Fulgrim vs. Khan match-up

[Laughingman]

I would not mind the Khan being faster, just in a different way, the aforementioned Super rending Hammer of Wraith attacks would be a interesting mechanic.

 

The Epic Smack-down between Daemon Fulgrim and the Khan in the upcoming Horus Heresy books is something I'll be eagerly anticipating.

 

Side note: Wonder if We will see rules for Fulgrim ascended eventually....

[SixOfOne]

I imagine that we will. FW have said that they want to do rules for the ascended Primarchs before. It won't happen before the siege though.

 

And yeah, that's what I was getting at b1soul. It's not that Khan isn't fast, in the fluff he's probably the fastest Primarch as, like you said, going fast is his stick. On the tabletop though it would break the match ups. The other two primarchs known for being fast are Corax and Cruze, both of whom are base I7. Making Khan I9 will break the established balance, and we want to avoid more powercreep. The likely fix to this is that he, like Corax, is base I7, but I8 when he charges. This works with the H&R aspect as well. It's good to remember that Corax and Khan are the two primarchs to emphasise speed, their opinions (and rivalry) differed on the correct application of speed.

[bluntblade]

I wonder if we'll get details of that disagreement

[Spinsanity]

Regarding his sidearm, according to John Blanche that would be an archeotech pistol and a bow, apparently... (the image is easy enough to google)

[SixOfOne]

I wonder if we'll get details of that disagreement

 

We have the main details, if not the specifics. Corax thought that Jaghatai had the tactical nuance of Angron, but was very effective. Jaghatai thought that Corax was way too cautious and not up for some good old man-to-man fighting. Basically they were arguing over whether speed and rapid reaction forces are best used in infiltration and deep strike (Corax) or on the front lines as a lightning strike (Jaghatai). It wasn't anywhere near to something like Russ and Magnus, but it was serious enough that the Raven Guard and White Scars still don't really get on well. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by SixOfOne

[b1soul]

@SixofOne

 

Where did you get this Corax vs. Khan (combat philosophy) info

 

...and it's pretty hard to have the tactical nuance of Angron haha. He has zero