Your hopes for White Scars in FW's Malevolence

[Kasper_Hawser]

It's worth noting that there are breeds of horse - especially destriers - from the Middle Ages whose size we're not certain of, and that's over a gap of five centuries.

 

I mean, these aren't Earth horses. They're Chogorian "horses", that have had 28,000 years to be selectively bred and diverge from what we understand now, assuming they even share a common ancestor, and aren't just similar looking Xenos.

 

 

LOL, you bring up a great point. Where the Chogorian horses actually "horses" in the first place? Heck, do terrans apart from the Emperor and similar aged perpetuals, even know what horses are in the old Earth sense? For all we know, the Chogorian horses are grass eating dinosaurs who happen to be rideable.

Mongols riding triceratops? Someone start a home brew Scars successor now!

 

 

I was just thinking that mongolian horses, which are very hardy in most weathers and used by border patrols along China-Russia-Kazahkstan look extremely tough if not especially fast. then again, don't know much about thier speed.

 

Sadly I heard that horsebreeding in Europe isn't as well documented as in the middle east or Spain, I heard in medieval times, they classified horses by "Work type", e.g. draught horses, destriers etc.

 

In Chinese history, supply of horses was very important in order to defend against the "barbarians", which is to say the nomadic horsemen of the northern steppes. the best horses had to come from as far as Middle east, or central asia to have a chance of fighting with the mongolians, manchurians and all the tribes before them.

[rendingon1+]

Common assumption is that medieval chargers were somehow like friesian breed. I've seen one in person (don't know if this particular horse was "standard") and it was hell of a beast.

 

BTW

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/canada/6242858/Poe-the-Clydesdale-The-worlds-tallest-horse.html

 

So apparently it's entirely possible for a primarch to ride a horse even without some evolutionary stuff.

Edited February 9, 2018 by rendingon1+

[ShadowCore67]

It's also totally possible that humanity had brought horses to Chogoris during the age of technology. Then over the many years they evolved up to the point when the emperor rediscovered the planet during the crusade.

[b1soul]

3000lb horse could probably carry a 800lb primarch?

[SickSix]

I am sure the plains folk if Chogoris began selectively breeding special 'horses' just for the Khan as soon as they realised he would need it.

 

Also donkeys are bred with horses to get the strength and endurance of a Donkey in horse size. And for whatever reason, every mule I have ever seen is quite large. You would think they would be somewhere between horse and donkey.

[Sandlemad]

It's also totally possible that humanity had brought horses to Chogoris during the age of technology. Then over the many years they evolved up to the point when the emperor rediscovered the planet during the crusade.

 

Brotherhood of the Storm and Scars both mention "aduun" as some sort of herd beast folks rode around on. Could be just a Chogorian word for a normal Terran-style horse but could be exactly what you describe. It might even leave enough room for some variant big enough for the Khagan.

[carlisimo]

For what it’s worth, aduu is Mongolian for horse.

[bluntblade]

I'd like some iconography foreshadowing so we can play Pin the Successor Chapter on the Brotherhood. I suspect Jubal's will form the core of the Scars Chapter, and Shiban's a successor. There's one obvious candidate for the Brotherhood of the Storm in terms of name, though honestly the Destroyers seem close to Shiban's temperament in Path of Heaven.

 

Also hoping we get Hibou as a character to see if there's any chance of him surviving his missions and the thingy that happened in Old Earth. Btw, DA players are cross? At least their Legion's story didn't get concluded in someone else's novel by Nick Kyme. Poor Iron Hands; I'm hoping Hibou gathers up a few Shattered Legion types.

Edited February 15, 2018 by bluntblade

[Withershadow]

Always wondered what the Khan used as a sidearm, it was not really discussed much, kind of assumed some sort of archaeotech pistol (or more likely a Archaeotech rifle, that was modified into a pistol for a Primarch use). If the designers want to make him extra fluffy, give him a Brace of pistols ( standard issue among cavalry before the invention of repeating firearms), I Imagine Chigorian horsemen used analogous weapons before the coming of the emperor.

He’s going to dual-wield traditional Mongorian, I mean Chigorian, bows. Recurve bow akimbo. Edited February 16, 2018 by Withershadow

[Lord_Caerolion]

How does he draw the string, you ask? With his mind!

[Withershadow]

He just gives the bows a stern look and says, "you better draw!", and they take care of the rest.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Withershadow

[Lord_Caerolion]

No words are needed, he just *piercing gaze*'s at them. They know what they gotta do, and they know what happens if they don't.

[Indefragable]

Jaghatai Khan:

-2 models, on jet bike and on foot

 

V Legion:

-2 main elements: Hammer and Anvil

 

Hammer:

The not-surprising bike and mobility-heavy elements that are some the fastest (as in movement) and deadliest units in the game. Non-bike units get bonuses to embarking/disembarking or charge distances. Brings whole new meaning to Relentless.

 

Special unit: something-something  Special Outriders/Jetbikes: somewhat rarely for 30k, they are an impressive balance of mobility, shooting, and melee capabilities. Think almost a 30k version of Ravenwing Black Knights with more zoom and less Jink.

 

Anvil:

The more "normal" elements of the V Legion used to boarding actions and urban warfare. The practices of the original Terrans stays strong. Bonus to ranged weapons with lots of Pinning and other debuffing abilities.  Think Spearhead Strike from the Scarblade Formation in 7th.

 

Special unit: Keshig. Khan's personal terminator-clad bodyguard. Surprisingly slow and resilient, they are the rock in the rapids, the center of the storm. The enemy--their heads spinning by the swirl of the Hammer units around them, desperately lash out against the only foe they seem able to catch...only to realize too late just how tough these guys are while their flanks are chopped to ribbons around them.

 

 

And tying both elements together is Khan. Faster than his opponents realize, deadlier than his opponents realize, sturdier than his opponents realize. Able to fluidly switch between modes as necessary...but always catching the foe off guard. Bonuses to Seize the Initiative, Scout moves to all White Scars (even Heavy Weapons Squads and Tanks),

 

Peerless swordsman: Khan's WS is always equal to or greater than his opponent's

Can cast 1 psychic power per term and deny two powers per turn.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Indefragable

[Kelborn]

The terminology of hammer and anvil is Salamanders' stuff.

 

I can rather imagine to see strategies basing on those, we got in Scars and the Last Hunt. Forgot their name, though.

Including speed to lure your enemies into a trap, than turn around and behead them. Kingslayer? Something like this?

[Marshal Loss]

I just want to see some awesome models for Keshig. The White Scars have such a cool aesthetic, combine that with my hard-on for Terminators and you have a hell of a party waiting to happen.

[bluntblade]

The terminology of hammer and anvil is Salamanders' stuff.

 

I can rather imagine to see strategies basing on those, we got in Scars and the Last Hunt. Forgot their name, though.

Including speed to lure your enemies into a trap, than turn around and behead them. Kingslayer? Something like this?

A Zao, I think

[Kelborn]

That was the one in Scars.

Last Hunt does have its own, I think it's called Kingslayer.

 

Distracting your enemies and lure them away from their leaders. Then, turn around with incredible speed, rush past said enemies and slay their king.

 

They did it on a Tyranid army + fleet at the same time. Cudos to RobMac! :)

[bluntblade]

I expect we'll see Retreat, Then Return

[Cadmus Tyro]

I’m really looking forwards to seeing how FW deal with the Vth legion, I’ve had a secret love for them after reading “scars”.

 

What if the Khârn had a base I7, but with +2 on the charge. Add in a “hammer of wrath” type rule that allows him to use the AP value of his weapon for the attacks (perhaps D3?). Couple this with “hit and run”.

 

I think this might represent the primarchs speed well, whilst emphasising the possible weakness of being locked down in combat. If the initial lightning strike doesn’t overwhelm the opponent he is at a slight disadvantage in your opponents combat phase.

 

In the books I have read about the Vth legion, there seems to be an overwhelming desire amongst the Vth to be by the primarchs side in combat, to witness his prowess in battle. Perhaps a rule that makes all WS fearless within 6”, but only whilst Khârn is in combat?

 

I also see him having the option of a jetbike for an additional cost. Also, perhaps he could modify the speed of bike and tank units in the primary detachment. Perhaps increasing “boost” and “flat out” moves by a couple of inches. Given his predilection for modifying his fleets engines, this does not seem unreasonable.

 

So all that probably makes him incredibly OP......Just thinking out loud!

 

Cadmus

[Indefragable]

I actually kind of have a feeling that Khan will have a 3+ armor save instead of 2+. But between loads of rules putting him somewhere between Corax’s mobility and Fulgrim’s choppiness, and the option to take a :cuss -in’ JETBIKE it will be not too noticeable.

[SixOfOne]

I’m really looking forwards to seeing how FW deal with the Vth legion, I’ve had a secret love for them after reading “scars”.

 

What if the Khârn had a base I7, but with +2 on the charge. Add in a “hammer of wrath” type rule that allows him to use the AP value of his weapon for the attacks (perhaps D3?). Couple this with “hit and run”.

 

I think this might represent the primarchs speed well, whilst emphasising the possible weakness of being locked down in combat. If the initial lightning strike doesn’t overwhelm the opponent he is at a slight disadvantage in your opponents combat phase.

 

In the books I have read about the Vth legion, there seems to be an overwhelming desire amongst the Vth to be by the primarchs side in combat, to witness his prowess in battle. Perhaps a rule that makes all WS fearless within 6”, but only whilst Khârn is in combat?

 

I also see him having the option of a jetbike for an additional cost. Also, perhaps he could modify the speed of bike and tank units in the primary detachment. Perhaps increasing “boost” and “flat out” moves by a couple of inches. Given his predilection for modifying his fleets engines, this does not seem unreasonable.

 

So all that probably makes him incredibly OP......Just thinking out loud!

 

Cadmus

 

That, regarding the melee rules, at least in my opinion, does make him too strong. 

 

However, it isn't a bad place to start, even if it's effectively Corax +1. He shouldn't be any more than I8 maximum, because it adversely affects the Primarch match ups too much (Bear in mind that I'm talking crunch here, not fluff). He should be I6 with a +2 initiative boost on the charge, or I7 base. He can't be higher than I8 because it removes the niche that Fulgrim has and thus we enter into primarch powercreep.

 

His weapon will be at least AP2, that alone makes your HoW idea way too strong. D3 automatic hits at (|let's presume either S5/6 Ap2) mathemetically cause 0.33/0.5 wounds against 4++ primarchs without even resolving combat. This is ridiculous. Primarch HoW hits will likely never be better than Corax due to his jump-pack basically being a power weapon. You should either go for a single, high strength hit with no AP (Like what I expect with Sanguinius), or D3 hits (Curze).

 

The fearless in combat idea is pretty good, but is kinda useless in-game. It will pretty much only ever apply to 1 unit with a 6" range. The other buff is something I can really see happening. Slightly more movement for bikes and tanks is about as fluffy as you can get, while also being useful in game.

 

Regarding buffs, a good place to start is whether you think the Khan will provide nice buffs that apply to few units, or army wide buffs that influence the way that the army plays.

[Laughingman]

The irony of the planet of the Hats troupe of chogoris is that real life mongols were never exactly known to be expert duelist or swordsmen instead being masters of maneuver warfare on horseback, the surviving martial traditions indicate they were expert wrestlers as well from what I understand.

 

In terms of the Khan I still advocate "super" rending  (Like the  executioner great blades sisters of silence have, but better maybe a 4+)  HOW attacks, it powerful in a different way, which is a reasonable approach to the khan..

 

In terms of the mentioned "primarch power creep" expect more of it the, At some point they are likely to do Fulgrim and  Angron ascended (hopefully in the next half decade, at forge worlds pace who knows). 

[Kasper_Hawser]

The irony of the planet of the Hats troupe of chogoris is that real life mongols were never exactly known to be expert duelist or swordsmen instead being masters of maneuver warfare on horseback, the surviving martial traditions indicate they were expert wrestlers as well from what I understand.

 

In terms of the Khan I still advocate "super" rending  (Like the  executioner great blades sisters of silence have, but better maybe a 4+)  HOW attacks, it powerful in a different way, which is a reasonable approach to the khan..

 

In terms of the mentioned "primarch power creep" expect more of it the, At some point they are likely to do Fulgrim and  Angron ascended (hopefully in the next half decade, at forge worlds pace who knows). 

 

Yep, never really understood how people thought of mongols as experts in close combat. Most of their fights were won using their speed and dirty tactics such as forcing their prisoners/hostages to march in front of them when approaching a city for a siege, or pretending to retreat to over draw their opponent's line. That and not being shy to use enemy's tactic and technology, which is why the Mongols were able to overcome so many "walled cities", even if they didn't resort to starving them. Basically using Chinese engineers and slaves to build their own cannons, guns and other siege weapons. And then using them again all the way to Baghdad, utilising any other artisan along the way like the destroyed Kwarhemzid caliphate.

 

That being said, White Scars seem to value close combat a lot and MAY be a high skilled close combat faction. But instead of focusing on style (Emp children, Salamanders), stealth, terror (Night Lords), brutality (world eaters and Space wolves), their focus I think is on speed and quick kills.

 

So with that in mind, the Khan shouldn't be portrayed as THAT good in CC, at least not to the point of Fulgrim, Russ or Angron. Perhaps more in line with "fast primarchs" like Corax, Kurze. The issue most of us have I think, is differentiating him without copying or make very similar rules to either the fighty primarchs or the flighty primarchs.

[Withershadow]

I can't believe there is so much discussion on Chogorian horses and their capability.  Doesn't everyone know that failed aspirants devolve into hideous man-horse hybrids, and are ridden by their more fortunate brethren into battle?

[Kasper_Hawser]

I can't believe there is so much discussion on Chogorian horses and their capability.  Doesn't everyone know that failed aspirants devolve into hideous man-horse hybrids, and are ridden by their more fortunate brethren into battle?

 

LOL, are you seriously going to make the White Scars adopt the Space Wolves trope? You mean there are "no horses on Chogoris"?

 

I think the subject went to horses due to the fact that its difficult to envision a Primarch riding a "normal" horse by todays standard, let alone whatever counts as "horses" on chogoris.