Your hopes for White Scars in FW's Malevolence

[rendingon1+]

I can't believe there is so much discussion on Chogorian horses and their capability. Doesn't everyone know that failed aspirants devolve into hideous man-horse hybrids, and are ridden by their more fortunate brethren into battle?

I confirm this to be true. Still better than IF though. Their failed aspirants turn to stone and are used as a building material.

[SickSix]

 

 

The irony of the planet of the Hats troupe of chogoris is that real life mongols were never exactly known to be expert duelist or swordsmen instead being masters of maneuver warfare on horseback, the surviving martial traditions indicate they were expert wrestlers as well from what I understand.

 

In terms of the Khan I still advocate "super" rending (Like the executioner great blades sisters of silence have, but better maybe a 4+) HOW attacks, it powerful in a different way, which is a reasonable approach to the khan..

 

In terms of the mentioned "primarch power creep" expect more of it the, At some point they are likely to do Fulgrim and Angron ascended (hopefully in the next half decade, at forge worlds pace who knows).

Yep, never really understood how people thought of mongols as experts in close combat. Most of their fights were won using their speed and dirty tactics such as forcing their prisoners/hostages to march in front of them when approaching a city for a siege, or pretending to retreat to over draw their opponent's line. That and not being shy to use enemy's tactic and technology, which is why the Mongols were able to overcome so many "walled cities", even if they didn't resort to starving them. Basically using Chinese engineers and slaves to build their own cannons, guns and other siege weapons. And then using them again all the way to Baghdad, utilising any other artisan along the way like the destroyed Kwarhemzid caliphate.

 

That being said, White Scars seem to value close combat a lot and MAY be a high skilled close combat faction. But instead of focusing on style (Emp children, Salamanders), stealth, terror (Night Lords), brutality (world eaters and Space wolves), their focus I think is on speed and quick kills.

 

So with that in mind, the Khan shouldn't be portrayed as THAT good in CC, at least not to the point of Fulgrim, Russ or Angron. Perhaps more in line with "fast primarchs" like Corax, Kurze. The issue most of us have I think, is differentiating him without copying or make very similar rules to either the fighty primarchs or the flighty primarchs.

Well also realize that the White Scars are not strictly Mongol inspired. I think they are more Pan-Asia inspired. Their dedication to honor rings more of Samurai to me than Mongol. I look at them as the all encompassing Asian legion. Edited February 20, 2018 by SickSix

[Withershadow]

 

I can't believe there is so much discussion on Chogorian horses and their capability. Doesn't everyone know that failed aspirants devolve into hideous man-horse hybrids, and are ridden by their more fortunate brethren into battle?

I confirm this to be true. Still better than IF though. Their failed aspirants turn to stone and are used as a building material.

It's tragic, it's true.  Failed Emperor's Children turn into hand-mirrors.

[b1soul]

The irony of the planet of the Hats troupe of chogoris is that real life mongols were never exactly known to be expert duelist or swordsmen instead being masters of maneuver warfare on horseback, the surviving martial traditions indicate they were expert wrestlers as well from what I understand.

 

The WS diverge significantly from Medieval Mongols...

 

1. The Mongol army was built upon iron discipline and strictly following orders. They weren't a chaotic horde letting their passions fly on the battlefield.

 

2. Mongols viewed close combat as dirty. The clean kill was from a distance with the compound bow.

 

3. Apart from the obvious Mongol influence, there are some Chinese, Tibetan, and Japanese influences I think. The first and last cultures care more about swordsmanship.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

 

The irony of the planet of the Hats troupe of chogoris is that real life mongols were never exactly known to be expert duelist or swordsmen instead being masters of maneuver warfare on horseback, the surviving martial traditions indicate they were expert wrestlers as well from what I understand.

 

The WS diverge significantly from Medieval Mongols...

 

1. The Mongol army was built upon iron discipline and strictly following orders. They weren't a chaotic horde letting their passions fly on the battlefield.

 

2. Mongols viewed close combat as dirty. The clean kill was from a distance with the compound bow.

 

3. Apart from the obvious Mongol influence, there are some Chinese, Tibetan, and Japanese influences I think. The first and last cultures care more about swordsmanship.

 

Actually its just the last, the Japanese, who actually give a damn about their swords, and even then not to the point of the near stupid legendary status it has today. The traditional weaponry of a samurai was actually the spear (yari), arrow (hama), and sword. This is of course, ignoring the fact that Japanese also made use of firearms but they don't like to associate samurai with firearms in their fiction and culture. Nevertheless, Japanese swordsmanship was noted during their "pirate raids" into China to the point that chinese generals insisted on proper swords and training for their coastal guards.

 

back to topic, so Jagathai Khan isn't just a mongol wannabe, but an amalgmation of many Asiatic cultures, though Mongol still seems to be the primary inspiration for him and the White Scars, due to the emphasis on speed. So whatever else you make Khan out to be, at least give Khan his jetbike. :) After that, I don't care if you give him a handheld plasma cannon or a big freakin axe.

[b1soul]

I recall that the Chinese acknowledged the superior cutting power of Japanese katana...I haven't read anything about the Chinese deeming their own swordsmanship system to be inferior.

 

Perhaps the issue was simply that Japanese raiders (probably samurai/ronin) tended to be better trained with the sword than the Chinese "coast guard"?

 

The Chinese generally used dao (what Jaghatai Khan's weapon is referred to) and jian (straight swords). As far as I'm aware, these two weapons, along with the staff and spear, form the staple of Chinese weapon-based martial arts.

[Riptor]

 

 

 

I can't believe there is so much discussion on Chogorian horses and their capability. Doesn't everyone know that failed aspirants devolve into hideous man-horse hybrids, and are ridden by their more fortunate brethren into battle?

I confirm this to be true. Still better than IF though. Their failed aspirants turn to stone and are used as a building material.

It's tragic, it's true. Failed Emperor's Children turn into hand-mirrors.

Yup, and failed Night Lords aspirants turn in to flayed skin and vehicle 'decoration'...

 

Actually, that one is probably pretty accurate.

[Kasper_Hawser]

I recall that the Chinese acknowledged the superior cutting power of Japanese katana...I haven't read anything about the Chinese deeming their own swordsmanship system to be inferior.

 

Perhaps the issue was simply that Japanese raiders (probably samurai/ronin) tended to be better trained with the sword than the Chinese "coast guard"?

 

The Chinese generally used dao (what Jaghatai Khan's weapon is referred to) and jian (straight swords). As far as I'm aware, these two weapons, along with the staff and spear, form the staple of Chinese weapon-based martial arts.

 

You are probably correct. It isn't so much inferiority of chinese swordsmanship, but the battle worthiness or as you say, the cutting power of the katana was acknowledged as superior to whatever the chinese "coastal guard" or navy had at the time. And perhaps the japanese pirates or "wokou", happened to by Satsuma Domain samurai who were generally considered to have trained for warfare their whole lives.

 

I really love these debates, although we risk derailing from what we wish for Jagatai and the White Scars in malevolence. It seems like we strive to tie his 30K incarnation to whatever we perceive is the dominant influence in his fluff. Therefore those who think of Jagatai as primarily mongolian (I belong to that camp), care more for his speed than his actual weapon skill. I believe you B1soul, have a more wider view of Jagatai's upbringing as pan-asian, therefore have no problem envisioning the Khan not only as a master swordsman from Japan equal to Murasame, or the technology artisan of the Chinese civilization to influence your view of Jagatai.

 

On a side note, sadly as a chinese, I discovered that all the wuxia (kung fu genre of films primarily from Hong Kong), was nonsense and had no basis in history and is mostly folklore, even the famed Shaolin school. Compared to Japanese samurai folklore, the Japanese version tends to be more realistic and true to the original legends I think. Many chinese heroes have been semi-canonized to the point I can't historically say that Guan Yu ever wielded a long bladed knife.

[A D-B]

A guide to weathering.

[Withershadow]

You mean Muramasa, Murasame was a sword from Final Fantasy.   And regarding Guan Yu, the "official" weapon of a general was a dao, so it's likely he probably at least had one. That's something, right?

 

Shaolin temple was definitely around (and continuously being burned down), but you're right that the modern school has more in common with Shaw brothers films than reality.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Withershadow

[Spinsanity]

If he doesn't come with a Scimitar, Pistol and Bow, I'll be disappointed... I don't actually care about the Jetbike, really.

 

[Spiritual Liege]

People so easily forget that they are not mongolians, they are space marines. They take inspiration from them and are based on them but not everything needs to be exactly like mongols. 

[carlisimo]

I'm starting to paint mine and I second what A D-B says. All minis benefit from weathering, but white, red, and gold don't seem to be natural partners so it becomes doubly important.

 

As for the historical stuff... I see a Mongol/Central Asian substrate (strategic and tactical mobility, falconry, hair) with pan-Asian layers on top: Taoism, tactical philosphy, and certain weaponry from China, poetry, dueling, and attitude towards death from Japan, Korean naval prowess, and there are probably things from Persia and India other than tulwars but I'm less familiar with their histories. Gotta read up on that.

 

Chris Wraight used a lot of Mongolian vocabulary and stuck with the previous parallels between Chogoris and 13th century Mongolia, but he always likes to throw a few curveballs and in this case it was being good with ships and not so good with logistics (meanwhile, the Space Wolves didn't get the seafaring skills of their source of inspiration). Still very Mongolian, but I loved what he came up with enough to go from a bored-of-marines xenos diehard to a White Scar player. I'm glad he went with the Taoist angle (at least as I see it). McNiven’s M41 take is great, too.

 

Kasper_Hawser (hopefully named after the character and not the real life guy!), I think what makes Japanese samurai stories more realistic is mostly the fact that they're relatively recent, 16th century rather than 3rd. Plus so many dynastic changes involved trying to destroy all information about the previous one... I wonder what we would know about Julius Caesar if Europe had been like that. Heck, I thought the primarchs were going to be portrayed as normal Astartes, just blown up the way Guan Yu has been by millennia of mythology.

[Noserenda]

I found weathering made painting White scars a lot easier, suddenly not perfect white is totally deliberate ;) 

[Kasper_Hawser]

I'm starting to paint mine and I second what A D-B says. All minis benefit from weathering, but white, red, and gold don't seem to be natural partners so it becomes doubly important.

 

As for the historical stuff... I see a Mongol/Central Asian substrate (strategic and tactical mobility, falconry, hair) with pan-Asian layers on top: Taoism, tactical philosphy, and certain weaponry from China, poetry, dueling, and attitude towards death from Japan, Korean naval prowess, and there are probably things from Persia and India other than tulwars but I'm less familiar with their histories. Gotta read up on that.

 

Chris Wraight used a lot of Mongolian vocabulary and stuck with the previous parallels between Chogoris and 13th century Mongolia, but he always likes to throw a few curveballs and in this case it was being good with ships and not so good with logistics (meanwhile, the Space Wolves didn't get the seafaring skills of their source of inspiration). Still very Mongolian, but I loved what he came up with enough to go from a bored-of-marines xenos diehard to a White Scar player. I'm glad he went with the Taoist angle (at least as I see it). McNiven’s M41 take is great, too.

 

Kasper_Hawser (hopefully named after the character and not the real life guy!), I think what makes Japanese samurai stories more realistic is mostly the fact that they're relatively recent, 16th century rather than 3rd. Plus so many dynastic changes involved trying to destroy all information about the previous one... I wonder what we would know about Julius Caesar if Europe had been like that. Heck, I thought the primarchs were going to be portrayed as normal Astartes, just blown up the way Guan Yu has been by millennia of mythology.

 

Yes I name my avatar after the Prospero Burns character. First HH novel I read, and even now 10 years later, still my favorite.

 

Yep, I like Chris Wright 'curve balls' a lot in Scars, with the exception of Space Wolves not being good sailors which left me going "whaaaaat". 

[Laughingman]

If Fulgrim was  consummate "duelist" then the Khan should be the consummate "warrior", though I am not sure how to reflect this with rules... 

 

side note: it would be hilarious if the Khan vs Fulgrim smackdown on terra ends with the Khan turning it into grappling contest (many martial traditions of the Far East had a grappling component) and attempting to choke out Fulgrim or break one of his many limbs....

[Kasper_Hawser]

If Fulgrim was  consummate "duelist" then the Khan should be the consummate "warrior", though I am not sure how to reflect this with rules... 

 

side note: it would be hilarious if the Khan vs Fulgrim smackdown on terra ends with the Khan turning it into grappling contest (many martial traditions of the Far East had a grappling component) and attempting to choke out Fulgrim or break one of his many limbs....

 

Maybe it would end up like how Loken defeated Lucius, with a head butt instead of a sword.

 

Still, brawler isn't something I associate with Khan. Being the cultured person that he is, whatever he wields in battle would be done with finesse instead of the fury of Russ or the elegance of the Lion. And traditionally, swords have always been the "high end" weapon.

[b1soul]

@ Laughingman

 

You mean if the Khan surprises Fulgrim with some Mongol/Talskar wrestling.

 

Probably not a good idea to wrestle Daemon Fulgrim

[Kasper_Hawser]

@ Laughingman

 

You mean if the Khan surprises Fulgrim with some Mongol/Talskar wrestling.

 

Probably not a good idea to wrestle Daemon Fulgrim

 

Oh yeah, at that point Fulrgim would have been a damn snake monster. Suddenly I'm getting Anaconda visions. Then again, who knows, maybe one can still strangle a snake as long as the hands are still free.

[Laughingman]

@ Laughingman

 

You mean if the Khan surprises Fulgrim with some Mongol/Talskar wrestling.

 

Probably not a good idea to wrestle Daemon Fulgrim

 

The idea was more like pre-war kenjitsu (which allowed trips, throws, armlocks, and chokes in addition to the sword)....  

Edited February 22, 2018 by Laughingman

[b1soul]

Pre which war?

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

@ Laughingman

 

You mean if the Khan surprises Fulgrim with some Mongol/Talskar wrestling.

 

Probably not a good idea to wrestle Daemon Fulgrim

 

The idea was more like pre-war kenjitsu (which allowed trips, throws, armlocks, and chokes in addition to the sword)....  

 

 

You mean once upon a time, Kenjutsu also involved a lot of body contact? That would make a lot of sense rather than the super stylised "Kendo" today which frankly doesn't look realistic. Same thing for western "Fencing", both of which focuses on sword contact with body, rather than what you mentioned above involving trips, throws, armlocks etc.

[Laughingman]

 

 

@ Laughingman

 

You mean if the Khan surprises Fulgrim with some Mongol/Talskar wrestling.

 

Probably not a good idea to wrestle Daemon Fulgrim

 

The idea was more like pre-war kenjitsu (which allowed trips, throws, armlocks, and chokes in addition to the sword)....  

 

 

You mean once upon a time, Kenjutsu also involved a lot of body contact? That would make a lot of sense rather than the super stylised "Kendo" today which frankly doesn't look realistic. Same thing for western "Fencing", both of which focuses on sword contact with body, rather than what you mentioned above involving trips, throws, armlocks etc.

 

 

 

My understanding is pre second world war the criteria for winning a Kenjitsu match was "would your opponent be incapacitated or dead in real life going at it with real weapons," How you did it was up to you... To this end trips, throws, grappling, chokes etc, were considered fair game.  

 

Alternatively hilarious situation: The Khan realizes he not going to beat Fulgrim in a stand up duel , gets inside his guard  and puts a well placed fist in Fulgrims face or throat allowing himself time to disengage (and hurt Fulgrim's pride)... After all how do you beat the perfect Duelist.... don't make your fight a duel.... Force him to fight on your terms... 

[Ashur]

I have high hopes for the fluff. So far, every legion has been covered beautifully, even those I do not care about. All the more reasons to expect great things for the WS. I specially want to know more about the internal organisation and the Khan's relastionship with his brothers and the Imperium at large.

[rendingon1+]

My understanding is pre second world war the criteria for winning a Kenjitsu match was "would your opponent be incapacitated or dead in real life going at it with real weapons," How you did it was up to you... To this end trips, throws, grappling, chokes etc, were considered fair game.

 

Alternatively hilarious situation: The Khan realizes he not going to beat Fulgrim in a stand up duel , gets inside his guard and puts a well placed fist in Fulgrims face or throat allowing himself time to disengage (and hurt Fulgrim's pride)... After all how do you beat the perfect Duelist.... don't make your fight a duel.... Force him to fight on your terms...

Nah, it happened too many times in other books. Loken's and Sevatar's respective duels come to mind. Why Khan can't be just better? I really ain't buying Fulgrim's "master duelist" since we have Angron, Khan, Russ or (even more) the Lion, dudes that were literally training/fighting with swords since childhood. This idea of F being super swordsman came from nothing and is not good.