Where does a new player start?

[Kinstryfe]

 

Primaris and normal Marines do have quite different options. I would definitely pick up the Marine codex before buying too many models, unless it's a starter set or something you know you'll be able to use regardless :-D

 

 

Yes, I likely will be doing that by the weekend.

At first, I was thinking of starting an army different from my friends, but I want to get to know the game quickly and play. Their armies include Blood Angels, Chaos Space Marines, Necrons, Space Marines, and Tyranids. I do like the look of the Adeptus Mechanicus (Yea! they have a codex!) and Necrons (Darn, they don't yet). As three of my opponents have 'space marine'-based armies, I can learn this type quicker. Plus, as I've been reading people's posts in the Astartes section, there are a few varieties of rules to choose from with the standard marine codex.

 

I.e, if I build and paint silver marines, they can be:

Silver Dragons, Silver Fists, Silver Ultras, etc as long as I use the same "Faction keyword" and have the appropriate models to "count as", right?

For the most part, among reasonable people, yes.

[Stark]

 

 I.e, if I build and paint silver marines, they can be:

Silver Dragons, Silver Fists, Silver Ultras, etc as long as I use the same "Faction keyword" and have the appropriate models to "count as", right?

For the most part, among reasonable people, yes.

 

That may be a problem? Hmm, okay, instead of silver could paint & coat them with grey ash and say they're "X" chapter that haven't gone through the armor wash yet?   Alright, I can see why - but I won't let that stop me right now. Codex & some models first! 

[Kinstryfe]

It's more to do with an FAQ ruling that most people are tending to just ignore (from what I can tell) that chapter warlord traits and special characters can only be taken by that exact chapter, which can be interpreted as "You can't take Calgar unless you are using an Ultramarines army", or "You can't take "Calgar" unless you are using Ultramarines rules for your army." So by one interpretation only an Ultramarines™ force can use Ultramarines stuff, by another your "Silver Ultimas" chapter using Ultramarines rules and everything else effectively /is/ Ultramarines. Personally, I'd have trouble playing anyone who insists silver marines can't use Ultramarines rules, but I can't account for who you may encounter in your local gaming group.

[Schlitzaf]

Just to explain and elaborate on why this rule exists, its so Chapter that shares Chapter Tactics/Rules (simple example be something like Flesh Tearers + Blood Angels Or (Chapter) + Red Scorpion) are prevented from using both sets of rules or certain overlapping buffs. From example one obvious reason is a Space Marine is limited to 1 (Chapter Master), because their only exists one character (Chapter Master) for any given Marine Chapter, and the Strategem (Chapter Master) is unavailable if you already have a Unit with Keyword (Chapter Master).

 

So just to give an actual example if you run Culln and Red Scorpions as an Ultramarine Successor you gain access to their Chapter Tactics (and their stratagem), however because your are actually Chapter Red Scorpion per rules, you don’t have access to Calgar, Gulliman, Ultra’s Relic and Warlord Trait (Through if Culn your Warlord, unlike named Ultramarine Warlord Characters, you can choose your Warlord Trait from one of the 6 Astartes Or 3 BRB). Another example is if you choose to use BT Rules (and gain access to Reroll Charge and Denial Strategem), you don’t have access to Crusader Squads, but you also retain access to Librarians. Because Templars lose Librarians due to their Keyword (Black Templar) not to due to their Chapter Tactics.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Schlitzaf

[Shockmaster]

It really depends on your environment, as I can understand why some people might not be keen on an opponent switching between chapters each battle but that is just because I like I am sure many others have been raised in gaming scenes in which everyone is super in to their chosen army, so rather then being anti the idea, it is more of a case that it does not even occur for example the local Imperial Fists player that he might use Raven Guard tactics & characters because he loves Imperial Fists so feels he needs to use everything in a codex that is linked to them.

 

I don't see switching as a big problem though, as the reality is GW should not have named Chapter Tactics as specific armies, instead of again for example one being named Imperial Fists, they should of all been given generic names maybe with a suggestion which one might be ideal for each chapter.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Shockmaster

[Schlitzaf]

Shockmaster then the issue is certain units and characters are tied (Chapter Tactics). Honestly this method while confusing is mechanically solid. Because (Relic) and (Warlord Trait) access is still available as generic trait and generic relics are all pretty solid at end of day. And it allows Named characters from Chapters without Dedicated who are (Warlord) to choose their trait, where Lysander/Helbrect etc cannot

[Shockmaster]

Shockmaster then the issue is certain units and characters are tied (Chapter Tactics). Honestly this method while confusing is mechanically solid. Because (Relic) and (Warlord Trait) access is still available as generic trait and generic relics are all pretty solid at end of day. And it allows Named characters from Chapters without Dedicated who are (Warlord) to choose their trait, where Lysander/Helbrect etc cannot

 

I don't want to take this thread off topic further so I will leave it at this one reply but I also don't believe SC rules should be tied to certain chapters either, sure the name & background material for that character should be chapter specific but their rules should be a template that allow people to make their own names characters for whatever chapter they like best.

[Stark]

It's more to do with an FAQ ruling that most people are tending to just ignore (from what I can tell) that chapter warlord traits and special characters can only be taken by that exact chapter, which can be interpreted as "You can't take Calgar unless you are using an Ultramarines army", or "You can't take "Calgar" unless you are using Ultramarines rules for your army." 

 

I can understand if you have to use a Chapter's rules throughout your entire army. Having to actually use a specifically painted army seems to fly in the face of being able to paint your own models the way you want. 

 

Just to explain and elaborate on why this rule exists, its so Chapter that shares Chapter Tactics/Rules (simple example be something like Flesh Tearers + Blood Angels Or (Chapter) + Red Scorpion) are prevented from using both sets of rules or certain overlapping buffs. From example one obvious reason is a Space Marine is limited to 1 (Chapter Master), because their only exists one character (Chapter Master) for any given Marine Chapter, and the Strategem (Chapter Master) is unavailable if you already have a Unit with Keyword (Chapter Master).

 

I agree totally with not "double-dipping" in the rules. If you are going to play a certain way, you have to commit entirely with the perks and pitfalls of using a set of rules. I would have thought a Successor (if it doesn't have its own unique rules and models) should be able to use its Founding Chapter's rules. Otherwise, why does it matter for an army to be a Successor? Again, I can understand the restriction if it is being abused by mixing or cherry-picking rules together from different chapters.

 

It really depends on your environment, as I can understand why some people might not be keen on an opponent switching between chapters each battle but that is just because I like I am sure many others have been raised in gaming scenes in which everyone is super in to their chosen army, so rather then being anti the idea, it is more of a case that it does not even occur for example the local Imperial Fists player that he might use Raven Guard tactics & characters because he loves Imperial Fists so feels he needs to use everything in a codex that is linked to them.

 

I don't see switching as a big problem though, as the reality is GW should not have named Chapter Tactics as specific armies, instead of again for example one being named Imperial Fists, they should of all been given generic names maybe with a suggestion which one might be ideal for each chapter.

 

If you have a painted Imperial Fists army, yes I can see why its expected to play with their rules. If you are playing in some type of competition or tournament, again I'd agree you shouldn't be allowed to switch army rules. I'm not sure how particular players are at the game shop my friends go to so I'll have to double-check with them. It seems counter-productive for new players to commit to a play style and paint their armies accordingly when they are learning the game.

 

Shockmaster then the issue is certain units and characters are tied (Chapter Tactics). Honestly this method while confusing is mechanically solid. Because (Relic) and (Warlord Trait) access is still available as generic trait and generic relics are all pretty solid at end of day. And it allows Named characters from Chapters without Dedicated who are (Warlord) to choose their trait, where Lysander/Helbrect etc cannot

 

I can see traits and relics being bound by a chapter's rules for that army alone. It seems boggling to me if you're using that army's rules specifically (as a Successor without its own rules) then why can't you use them? What happens if two armies fight, both Ultramarines, and both have the same characters in them? Do you have to roll a dice to see who can't use them? I mean that sarcastically, of course. It seems restrictive for a fantasy/sci-fi wargame, at least in my opinion.

 

 

I don't want to take this thread off topic further so I will leave it at this one reply but I also don't believe SC rules should be tied to certain chapters either, sure the name & background material for that character should be chapter specific but their rules should be a template that allow people to make their own names characters for whatever chapter they like best.

 

On one hand, I appreciate the back-and-forth. It's better to see it now than at the game table. 

 

I know, I know - I have to get the Space Marine codex (which I may only be allowed to use a part of once I put paint to plastic) and give it a good going over.

 

Thanks for shedding light on this for me.

 

Edited February 5, 2018 by Stark

[Karack Blackstone]

"Sometimes you gotta run before you can walk."

 

Long story short: Friends show me game. Friends want me to play. I purchase the rule book to read. Everything sounds great, right?

 

My friends (and their other friends who play) all want to be helpful and tell me what army I should start. I know their intentions are good. They love their armies for their own reasons. They like how they play with them. They like the background from the stories about their armies. 

 

It seems like a fun hobby. I haven't built models in years - many of the different armies look and sound fantastic. Space Marines sound like a solid choice, but there seems to be a huge variety of them too (not to mention all of the codex books for each army). My friends are anxious for me to join them at their hobby shop to play - but I don't know enough about the game as they do it seems.

 

Do I just take the plunge and start buying a codex and models for that army? What helped many of you decide? Any recommendations?

 

Thanks. 

 

Please describe your ideal method of warfare.

 

I do mean this.

 

Do you prefer to shoot, close the distance, charge, and rend your enemies asunder with a blade? Space Wolves or Blood Angels do these things the most, Loyalist side.

 

Do you instead favor a stalwart gunline of unflinching, unbreakable Brothers that stand in the face of an enemy charge and weather it like rain? Dark Angels or Imperial Fists.

 

Do you prefer to be the most single tactically flexible force, but, because of the general nature this flexibility allows, not quite fully focused on any one aspect of war? Ultramarines.

 

What might best aid you is, ask if you may see a friend's Codex for any and all of the armies you are interested in playing, or at least, testing out. If they do let you see them, as Space Marines are a pretty easy army to start, but difficult to master, read the fluff, or, the internal game world background material in each book.

 

Based on what you see, the vibe you get, the way each army comes across to you as you go through the individual Codex per army, consider that one above all will sing to your soul.

 

That should be your army.

[Stark]

 

Please describe your ideal method of warfare.

 

I do mean this.

 

Do you prefer to shoot, close the distance, charge, and rend your enemies asunder with a blade? Space Wolves or Blood Angels do these things the most, Loyalist side.

 

Do you instead favor a stalwart gunline of unflinching, unbreakable Brothers that stand in the face of an enemy charge and weather it like rain? Dark Angels or Imperial Fists.

 

Do you prefer to be the most single tactically flexible force, but, because of the general nature this flexibility allows, not quite fully focused on any one aspect of war? Ultramarines.

 

What might best aid you is, ask if you may see a friend's Codex for any and all of the armies you are interested in playing, or at least, testing out. If they do let you see them, as Space Marines are a pretty easy army to start, but difficult to master, read the fluff, or, the internal game world background material in each book.

 

Based on what you see, the vibe you get, the way each army comes across to you as you go through the individual Codex per army, consider that one above all will sing to your soul.

 

That should be your army.

 

I like how you explained the above.

I would have to answer either Imperial Fists or Ultramarines. Maybe when I play, my opinion will change. 

The flexibility factor of playing is why I commented on "rules versus how an army is painted". I read some posts in the Astartes section which I must have misinterpreted.

What do I know? 

I was having too much dreamy fun for my own good. I'll give my head a good thump with the codex when I get it. 

Edited February 5, 2018 by Stark

[Shockmaster]

Sorry for the off topic Stark, especially if it confused you or seemed discouraging in any way, it was not my intention, I just wished to try and explain why you might find some players a little off with you, if you liked to try out different rules for your chosen chapter.

 

The rest was just my rambling opinion on what I believe is a design flaw in the way GW go about that one aspect of their rules.

 

I am pro creativity and support players being able choose which chapter/character rules they use, as they should be templates rather then specifically tied to certain well known chapters/characters by the rules.

 

How you paint your minis should not stop you using certain rules, using an example if someone loves Ultramarines but wants their armies theme to be stealth so use rules suggested for Raven Guard and also lead by their own named character that happens to share the template rules for Vulkan then that should be allowed.

 

Now I am done, good luck getting in to this great hobby, it can be extremely rewarding and I hope you get out of it what your looking for. 

Edited February 5, 2018 by Shockmaster

[Stark]

Sorry for the off topic Stark, especially if it confused you or seemed discouraging in any way, it was not my intention, I just wished to try and explain why you might find some players a little off with you, if you liked to try out different rules for your chosen chapter.

 

The rest was just my rambling opinion on what I believe is a design flaw in the way GW go about that one aspect of their rules.

 

I am pro creativity and support players being able choose which chapter/character rules they use, as they should be templates rather then specifically tied to certain well known chapters/characters by the rules.

 

How you paint your minis should not stop you using certain rules, using an example if someone loves Ultramarines but wants their armies theme to be stealth so use rules suggested for Raven Guard and also lead by their own named character that happens to share the template rules for Vulkan then that should be allowed.

 

Now I am done, good luck getting in to this great hobby, it can be extremely rewarding and I hope you get out of it what your looking for. 

 

No problem, Shockmaster. No harm, no foul.

I can see both sides of the matter. My brain floats somewhere in-between. I agree that creativity shouldn't be discouraged - especially while drawing players into the game. If I knew about a specific Chapter, read stories about them etc, and the codex says THESE are their rules - then sure, I'll abide by that. However, there are so many chapters no one can know enough about them before playing - not to mention if a player has ideas of their own, i.e. I want to play an army like Blood Angels but I hate painting red. 

 

I want to have fun playing the game, and I don't want to interfere with my opponents having fun - except for beating them occasionally. 

 

I do appreciate everyone's giving me their opinions. It helps me think better.

[Claws and Effect]

The rules on named characters only being able to be taken by the specific chapter they belong to was designed to prevent superfriends lists.

 

If you could plug any character you like into a list and have all their rules affect each other because you used keyword <RED GUYS> you could create some truly broken combinations.

 

Take the Emperor's Champion. Imagine if you could send Shrike in before him to disable Overwatch and have Tyberos the Red Wake hanging around to give him +1 strength.

[totgeboren]

because you used keyword <GREY GUYS> you could create some truly broken combinations.

 

Fixed that. ;)

 

But seriously, the FAQ was written to clarify the rules. The only successors affected by the FAQ are successors that have rules. If you are playing a Chapter that does not have rules, you will probably want to count them as a Chapter that does have rules. If you pick a Chapter that is a successor chapter (like the BT), you have to use their rules. You can't also use the Imperial Fist rules.

 

If your DYI successor chapter are of IF decent, you will either play then using your own keyword (<GREY GUYS>), and then you can't use any IW stuff (since you have the wrong keyword), or you play them with the <IMPERIAL FISTS> keyword, and then all their stuff is open to you, since you are playing IF according to the rules.

[Stark]

The rules on named characters only being able to be taken by the specific chapter they belong to was designed to prevent superfriends lists.

 

If you could plug any character you like into a list and have all their rules affect each other because you used keyword <RED GUYS> you could create some truly broken combinations.

 

I agree this could lead to abuse and trouble at the game table. 

Although if I want to play with an orange-painted <ULTRAMARINES>, I shouldn't have a problem using an orange-painted Guilliman model, right?

 

But seriously, the FAQ was written to clarify the rules. The only successors affected by the FAQ are successors that have rules. If you are playing a Chapter that does not have rules, you will probably want to count them as a Chapter that does have rules. If you pick a Chapter that is a successor chapter (like the BT), you have to use their rules. You can't also use the Imperial Fist rules.

 

A page back, I only mentioned using silver-painted guys as <IMPERIAL FISTS> or <ULTRAMARINES> etc as a way to use the models to learn the rules for playing each army. I figure if I really enjoy playing a particular chapter then I'll build & paint the army (Founder or Successor) by the book. If I have a heavy ordnance shooting army, that's what I'll use it for. The same goes for an infantry assault charging army. If I want a jack-of-all-trades army, it will be my third army.

 

I never meant to suggest mixing chapter rules. I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't expect my opponents to do it.

 

I see I'm going to have to be careful forming my army to prevent any crossing of any tactical, stratagems, traits, and relics rules. 

 

Okay, after selecting an army (which I've been able to do because of the great advice given here), assembling and painting it (where I'll probably be posting in the painting section for tips and ideas), and playing with it (and asking for help in the related <CHAPTER> forums) --- is there any thing else I should be mindful of? 

[Ishagu]

So what did you decide on? Sorry, There's huge essays above which intimidated my illiterate eyes :-P

[Schlitzaf]

Correct. Through any Space Marine army is really “Jack of All Trades Master of None”, even melee one’s like Black Templar, Blood Angels and Space Wolves or shooty one’s like Imperial Fists, Dark Angels and Deathwatch. Your Tactics simply better able to enable your preferred style of engagement. A Black Templar Army can be as shooty as a Dark Angel one (with our Crusader Squads flexibility, we can make a shooty list just as well as a melee one). Our Tactics are more about us reliably getting into combat where we bring to bear larger squad sizes, and attacks. Dark Angels while prefer a more gunline list can go Death or Raven Wings for rapid deployment and engagement. While their tactics prefer that they use Tacticals and Intercessors to form a hardy center, with Raven as Bully and Death as as an hammer force.

 

Your Chapter Tactics aren’t the army, your tactics should be used to compliment your playstyle not be your playstyle. If that makes any sense

[Stark]

So what did you decide on? Sorry, There's huge essays above which intimidated my illiterate eyes :-P

 

Space Marines! (Yea, I'm on my second pair of optics already.  )

Once I start playing, I'll narrow it down to Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Ultramarines, or White Scars.

 

Correct. Through any Space Marine army is really “Jack of All Trades Master of None”, even melee one’s like Black Templar, Blood Angels and Space Wolves or shooty one’s like Imperial Fists, Dark Angels and Deathwatch. Your Tactics simply better able to enable your preferred style of engagement. A Black Templar Army can be as shooty as a Dark Angel one (with our Crusader Squads flexibility, we can make a shooty list just as well as a melee one). Our Tactics are more about us reliably getting into combat where we bring to bear larger squad sizes, and attacks. Dark Angels while prefer a more gunline list can go Death or Raven Wings for rapid deployment and engagement. While their tactics prefer that they use Tacticals and Intercessors to form a hardy center, with Raven as Bully and Death as as an hammer force.

 

Your Chapter Tactics aren’t the army, your tactics should be used to compliment your playstyle not be your playstyle. If that makes any sense

 

Ah, okay. I thought the chapter tactics acted as a template, possibly restricting what could be fielded. That's a relief. 

So I'm free to make my sandwich and decide on a side of chips, nachos, or even a slice of pickle later. (I probably shouldn't have skipped breakfast this morning.) 

[Schlitzaf]

I mean it depends, once you pick your tactics go your respective forums. A BT-Keyword Army cannot have Librarians but you unlock the best or second best tactical equivalent squad in the game bar none

[Claws and Effect]

If you paint your dudes orange and play them as Ultramarines you can absolutely take an orange Guilliman.

 

But you can't take orange Guilliman and orange Lysander at the same time under the same keyword, because Lysander requires the <IMPERIAL FISTS> keyword and Guilliman requires <ULTRAMARINES>.

 

Make sense?

[Stark]

If you paint your dudes orange and play them as Ultramarines you can absolutely take an orange Guilliman.

But you can't take orange Guilliman and orange Lysander at the same time under the same keyword, because Lysander requires the <IMPERIAL FISTS> keyword and Guilliman requires <ULTRAMARINES>.

Make sense?

Absolutely! Never shall the two meet in my army.

Not that I was serious about painting orange, but an Orangus Juilliusman is now tempting me.

[Halandaar]

The reason I brought up the idea of changing chapter tactics earlier on, is because there are multiple cases of chapters of unknown heritage in the lore of the game, with the Blood Ravens arguably being the most well-known. We're encouraged to devise our own chapters and select appropriate rules, so if you do so (or even use an existing chapter with unknown heritage, like the aforementioned Blood Ravens), then you have carte blanche to use whichever chapter tactic you like best. In some cases, even officially supported Forgeworld chapters (like the Exorcists) made it clear that you could choose whatever Chapter Tactic rules you wanted to represent them. Why should this be a one-time decision?

 

Let's say you come up with the the mighty <Imperial Pumpkins>, in their bright orange colour scheme. Sure, you might want to play them using the Ultramarines jack-of-all-trades rules initially. But then maybe you want to add a bunch of biker models to your force. Perhaps in your next game you might like to use the White Scars chapter tactics to represent the Imperial Pumpkins 6th Assault Company, comprised primarily of bike squads and led by the formidable Captain Jag Hatty Carne.

 

Approaching it in this way allows you maximum flexibility with how you play your army. There are certain circumstances in which you'd have to pick-and-stick (tournaments), but for general day-to-day gaming, I suspect most people aren't going to split hairs over you using your made-up chapter as Raven Guard one week and Salamanders the next, provided you're upfront about it before the game begins, and don't try to mix-and match detachments using different sets of tactics under the same colour scheme.

[Stark]

Let's say you come up with the the mighty <Imperial Pumpkins>, in their bright orange colour scheme. Sure, you might want to play them using the Ultramarines jack-of-all-trades rules initially. But then maybe you want to add a bunch of biker models to your force. Perhaps in your next game you might like to use the White Scars chapter tactics to represent the Imperial Pumpkins 6th Assault Company, comprised primarily of bike squads and led by the formidable Captain Jag Hatty Carne.

 

Approaching it in this way allows you maximum flexibility with how you play your army. There are certain circumstances in which you'd have to pick-and-stick (tournaments), but for general day-to-day gaming, I suspect most people aren't going to split hairs over you using your made-up chapter as Raven Guard one week and Salamanders the next, provided you're upfront about it before the game begins, and don't try to mix-and match detachments using different sets of tactics under the same colour scheme.

 

I'm not up on the lore of the "Thousand Chapters", so I'll hold off on one of those until my gaming and painting get better. 

 

I thought of using the <Imperial Pumpkins> approach mainly to help me get familiar with the rules. Besides, my building & painting skills will be lacking in comparison to many of the skilled artisans here on the B&C. When I get better, I'll want to tackle a "Founding Chapter" for the "historical accuracy". 

 

I like your idea of creating different companies to represent different battle approaches for the army. Again, I heed the advice of letting my opponent know what I'm doing - especially if I am going to be practicing with the different chapter-specific rules. 

 

I opened two new threads, in the Forge & Liber sections, to help me along.

Stark's Forge: Grey Plastikos Space Marine Chapter

Index Astartes: Grey Plastikos

Edited February 7, 2018 by Stark

[Claws and Effect]

The different companies suggestion is how most Codex chapters actually do it.

 

The 6th Company of many chapters has a lot of bikers, the 7th tends to have a lot of aircraft assigned to it, the 8th is all Assault squads and Land Speeders, and the 9th is all Devastator squads.

[Stark]

Claws and Effect: Thank you. Now, I'll know how to assign my models into their respective companies.

Okay, I'm officially started. Codex & models acquired!

Further updates, at least with assembling, can be found at: Stark's Forge: Grey Plastikos Space Marine Chapter