Where does a new player start?

[Zodd1888]

If you paint your dudes orange and play them as Ultramarines you can absolutely take an orange Guilliman.

But you can't take orange Guilliman and orange Lysander at the same time under the same keyword, because Lysander requires the <IMPERIAL FISTS> keyword and Guilliman requires <ULTRAMARINES>.

Make sense?

Absolutely! Never shall the two meet in my army.

Not that I was serious about painting orange, but an Orangus Juilliusman is now tempting me.

That Julliusman needs a spray tan.

[Stark]

That Julliusman needs a spray tan.

Here you go. My eyes can't bear the orange glory any longer!

Any further detailing must be done to your own model.

[Zodd1888]

Reminds me of Elton John.

[Stark]

Reminds me of Elton John.

 

Hmm, not enough "bling". Yea, Sir Elton could certainly pull off the orange look.  

 

Oh, the irony!

I was introduced to the game about a week ago, considered doing an "Iron Man" army, read through the rule book, read posts here at the B&C, thought to make my army more grim to fit the 40k universe, and now I'm back to thinking of an Iron Man army again. Rrrgh!

 

I blame the B&C painter. 

 

Don't misunderstand me, it is a great resource! It's one thing to have a dozen ideas, but then to quickly see them and you can start creating a dozen more? "Ay, chihuahua!"

 

Finally having some models in my hands is making me wonder how skillfully I'll be able to paint them. I need to build them first too. For all of my posting this past week, here and at the Forge and at  and at the Liber, I'm going to have to resist & buckle down and take my time building. Hopefully I can have a few units to play with by next week. 

 

I am beginning to understand just how immersive this game & hobby can be. It's a lot of fun. 

 

How I paint will be a deciding factor. I am leaning towards a predominant black scheme with a few touches of color. I'm not committing to a founding chapter scheme yet until I see what rules and play style I develop. I hope I can do this quicker to have a painted army to play with - not that my friends would mind as some have 'grey' armies. I'm just starting. but it doesn't feel right to play with unpainted models. It's just me, I guess.

 

I do appreciate and enjoy all of the advice and encouragement the members here at the B&C have to offer. Thanks!

[Stark]

Okay, I've played my first games of 40K.

I borrowed & played with a friend's SM army (1000 points) against him & his Tyranid army. It seemed a little one-sided (as he had twice the models than I had), but it was fun. My friend knew his army and mine very well. I handled losing very well. I would've liked to handled winning - even badly, but that's the way it went.

I probably asked too many questions while playing. There was plenty of "helpful" advice from other players at the game shop.

"Space Marines? You've lost already."

"THAT'S what you chose to take?"

"Where's your Primaris? You should have Primaris."

"You should play (insert any other army type here)."

Yea, it was fun. Real fun.

[Major_Gilbear]

I hope your friend picked two armies that were reasonably balanced against each other, and that you both used the same level of rules (for example, you both used your army special rules, both used Warlord traits, etc.). Unbalanced armies, army-tailoring, or other such advantages against a new player are really poor form. :(

 

Beyond that, and suggesting you ignore the bystanders (politely ask them to sod off and play their own game!), it's hard to comment without much more detail.

 

If you're 100% new to tabletop wargames, then I suppose getting the hang of non-rules things that we all take for granted is going to be more of a learning curve for you. By this I mean things like how/where to deploy, what to target, when to move, etc.

 

Anyway, don't give up - keep plugging away at the models and learning the game, and you'll be winning some victories of your own in no time!  

[Stark]

I hope your friend picked two armies that were reasonably balanced against each other, and that you both used the same level of rules (for example, you both used your army special rules, both used Warlord traits, etc.). Unbalanced armies, army-tailoring, or other such advantages against a new player are really poor form.

 

Beyond that, and suggesting you ignore the bystanders (politely ask them to sod off and play their own game!), it's hard to comment without much more detail.

 

If you're 100% new to tabletop wargames, then I suppose getting the hang of non-rules things that we all take for granted is going to be more of a learning curve for you. By this I mean things like how/where to deploy, what to target, when to move, etc.

 

Anyway, don't give up - keep plugging away at the models and learning the game, and you'll be winning some victories of your own in no time!

 

Sorry, I didn't have time to take too many notes before, during, or after the games. Like I said, my friend knows both armies better than me (they were all his models, and I only have my SM codex for their rules). 

 

One thing I learned, my Black Templar's "Abhor the Witch" was useless against his "Psychic Scream" (he explained since the 'scream' was a warp-charged power that only psykers had a chance to defend against it). Re-rolling failed charge rolls worked, but against large mobs of his gaunts I was 'outclawed'.

 

Yea, reading the rule book isn't the same as playing the table. It'll be a sharp curve for a while.

 

I'll admit my sails lost a little of the wind behind them. I'll definitely keep plugging, thanks.

[Commander Dawnstar]

 

One thing I learned, my Black Templar's "Abhor the Witch" was useless against his "Psychic Scream" (he explained since the 'scream' was a warp-charged power that only psykers had a chance to defend against it).

 

I'm not going to claim close knowledge of Tyranids in 8th Edition, but that doesn't sound at all right to me. The whole point of Abhor the Witch is to give the Black Templars a means of denying psychic powers despite their refusal to field psykers.

[Major_Gilbear]

Honestly, from the few comments you've made here, it doesn't seem like you were set up for a fair fight really.

 

One thing I learned, my Black Templar's "Abhor the Witch" was useless against his "Psychic Scream" (he explained since the 'scream' was a warp-charged power that only psykers had a chance to defend against it).

 

It's a psychic power, cast by model with the "Psyker" keyword. Why would the "Abhor the Witch" stratagem not work against it? I think your friend misled you here again.

 

 

Re-rolling failed charge rolls worked, but against large mobs of his gaunts I was 'outclawed'.

 

It can be hard for elite armies to deal with swarms, but staying in cover and shooting the crap out of the enemy does help to thin out their numbers before the inevitable assault.

 

 

 

Edit:

You might also want to download and read a few of the Errata/FAQs here too, as these are often quite helpful in clearing up issues that come up in games.

Edited February 18, 2018 by Major_Gilbear

[Stark]

I'm not going to claim close knowledge of Tyranids in 8th Edition, but that doesn't sound at all right to me. The whole point of Abhor the Witch is to give the Black Templars a means of denying psychic powers despite their refusal to field psykers.

 

 

I was rolling with the game as best I could. I didn't want to stop and question every rule as it came into play. It would've been nice if I could've taken notes while playing, but with using the shop's tables I didn't want to slow things down too much. 

 

Aside from that, what do I have to do? Buy every codex for every army I play against? Oh, yea - hobby $$$  

 

Honestly, from the few comments you've made here, it doesn't seem like you were set up for a fair fight really.

 

One thing I learned, my Black Templar's "Abhor the Witch" was useless against his "Psychic Scream" (he explained since the 'scream' was a warp-charged power that only psykers had a chance to defend against it).

 

It's a psychic power, cast by model with the "Psyker" keyword. Why would the "Abhor the Witch" stratagem not work against it? I think your friend misled you here again.

 

Re-rolling failed charge rolls worked, but against large mobs of his gaunts I was 'outclawed'.

 

It can be hard for elite armies to deal with swarms, but staying in cover and shooting the crap out of the enemy does help to thin out their numbers before the inevitable assault.

 

Edit:

You might also want to download and read a few of the Errata/FAQs here too, as these are often quote helpful in clearing up issues that come up in games.

 

It was claimed the "scream" was a "warp power", not a "psyker power". As I said above, I didn't want to slow things up during play. Looking at the rule book, I couldn't see it not being a psyker power. I thought it was something unique in the Tyranid codex.

 

Sigh. I called my friend as I'm typing this. Essentially, I "needed to learn how to lose". I "should have known" his army was 2000 points against my 1000 points. Yea, it was a good laugh all around. "That's how we play" and I "should get used to it."  

 

It was suggested, for next time, I use my own models too. 

 

I didn't expect to win with my first few games. I chalked it up to him knowing the game and my own lack of experience. What a wasted day! Not to mention my money so far. How am I supposed to learn? Why bother to play? I can't learn the game if I can't trust other players. Do I need to memorize EVERY army book? Damn. 

 

Maybe if the codexes were like the indexes (all rules for all factions), it would've been better. I'd accept buying 5 books over 1 for each faction. Just the rules and no background would be fine by me. Sorry, I digress. 

 

What have I learned from this? To calm down before I rant any more.

I guess it's also nice to be perceived as a threat needing to be undermined by an opponent. Maybe I can use that somehow along my 40K journey. 

 

Thanks for your patience and comments. 

 

Edit: Yea, thank you, I'll look into the FAQs too. 

Edited February 18, 2018 by Stark

[Lephisto]

Don't worry, over time you will get to know what each army does and what their strengths or weaknesses are.

 

1. Warp Powers/Psychic Powers - same thing, your friend definitely misled or lied to you there. Pretty much anything done in the psychic phase is a psychic power.

2. Yes, use your own models, it's the best way to learn how to play, a player will learn much faster if he's using their own models that they're invested in.

3. It was not good at all that your friend set a game for you to fail from the start. 2000 points vs 1000 points is a dumb way to teach a new player.

 

40k, especially in this edition, is quite balanced. If you guys were playing same amount of points, it would of been a much closer game.

[Major_Gilbear]

Wow, no offence, but it sounds like your friend is (1) a *really* poor sport, and (2) not much of friend if he can't even give you a fair intro game.

 

Edit:

Long story short: Friends show me game. Friends want me to play.

Do your friends want you to play? Are you such a bad loser that you needed this sort of "lesson"?

 

Not wanting to rock the boat here, but are there any other groups or people that you could get a few games in with locally? Personally, the sort of attitude your friend showed would really turn me off playing with him again as it's pretty clear he's not interested in playing a proper game in a friendly way.

 

Also, as a point of reference: if you are unsure about an explanation than an opponent gives you, ask them to show you the rule in their Codex. If they can't show you, then they don't get to use the rule. Obviously, doing this all the time (especially for nefarious reasons) will earn you a lot of ire, but for the rest of the time it keeps people much more honest. It also means you don't have to buy all the books, and that your opponent can request the same of you too (again, within reason).

 

Finally, please don't be disheartened! It is a good fun game. The hobby and lore side of things is also fantastic. As with anything social though, the people you play with matter more than almost anything else, and most people are in fact perfectly decent and reasonable.

Edited February 18, 2018 by Major_Gilbear

[Stark]

Don't worry, over time you will get to know what each army does and what their strengths or weaknesses are.

 

Yea, I figure that - just having some residual frustration. Thank you for the suggestions. 

 

Wow, no offence, but it sounds like your friend is (1) a *really* poor sport, and (2) not much of friend if he can't even give you a fair intro game.

 

No offence taken. The friend in question is very competitive, so I knew it would be a hard game. I didn't expect anything more than my own inexperience to be used against me. Without going too deep, in his own way, he honestly feels this was helpful to me. 

 

I presume he and my other friends want me to play. I never did anything so harsh as to warrant them to talk me into spending my time & money so they could jerk me around afterwards. I spent a few hours of having my army "eaten alive". I took it in stride and accepted it. Talking about it now has made me feel pretty stupid for being so trusting. The only other players are the few I met at the shop. I haven't played with anyone else yet. I'll be better prepped for next time.

 

I admit I'm a little disheartened, but it'll pass. It's a gaming hobby & "people are people" -  you get the good, bad, & the ugly. Maybe my friend needed to win a few games to feel better. Maybe it's how he learned. I don't know and I don't want to rock the boat either. I want to have fun, build & paint my models and play the game.

 

I do appreciate your advice as it helps me keep some perspective. 

[SickSix]

I would suggest not playing your first game in a store. But thats past.

 

Don't get discouraged. If you had anything to proxy with I would suggest playing some basic scenarios at home just to get familiar with rules. Like not a whole game but practice each phase of a turn, movement shooting and assault.

 

And don't listen to all that Primaris nonsense. They are an abomination.

[Stark]

I would suggest not playing your first game in a store. But thats past.

 

Don't get discouraged. If you had anything to proxy with I would suggest playing some basic scenarios at home just to get familiar with rules. Like not a whole game but practice each phase of a turn, movement shooting and assault.

 

And don't listen to all that Primaris nonsense. They are an abomination.

 

Yea, I'll definitely wait until I have my own models with me before I go back to the shop.

I plan to take part in the Blood and Zeal 2018 event between the Black Templars & the Blood Angels. This should help get me on track building my models. 

 

Proxy? Hadn't thought of doing that. I've more than a few chess sets (kings & queens as headquarters, pawns as troops, bishops as elites, knights as fast attacks, rooks as heavies). Two of my boards are 2-foot square (one is a roll-up mat board). I can do this. Thank you! 

 

Yea, I don't mind holding off the Primaris for now. They seem to be the new kids on the block that the store is pushing. I'll stick with the basics for now. Regular Space Marines have been around longer so I'll trust in what they can do for now. 

 

Thanks again! 

Edited February 19, 2018 by Stark

[Halandaar]

Sigh. I called my friend as I'm typing this. Essentially, I "needed to learn how to lose". I "should have known" his army was 2000 points against my 1000 points. Yea, it was a good laugh all around. "That's how we play" and I "should get used to it."  

 

I've read and re-read your account of this game and i'm pretty much in disbelief. I cannot wrap my head around how anybody would think this is acceptable way to treat any player, let alone a brand new one having their first experience with the game. And it's not even the fact that you were set up to fail that's most annoying.

 

Even when outnumbering you 2:1 and weighing his own knowledge of the game against your inexperience, your "friend" still felt the need to cheat, denying you fair use of a stratagem by completely lying to you about how psychic powers work. It's not ambiguous, it's not open to interpretation, there can be no claim that he misunderstood. Psychic scream is a psychic power, from a psychic discipline, cast by a psyker. It is absolutely a valid target for Abhor the Witch, the entire point of which is to provide the Black Templars with a means to deny psychic powers. He can't just say it doesn't apply because he feels like it.

 

Personally, I'd refuse to play against anybody I witnessed pulling crap like this. That said, I appreciate you aren't in an easy situation where this guy is a member of your friendship group and actually one of the reasons you got started in the hobby at all. You can't be expected to know every ability in every Codex, but unfortunately it looks like that's going to be used against you, so definitely follow Major_Gilbear's advice; if anything seems weird or unreasonable, ask your opponent to show you in the Codex. You have the perfect reason to do so ("I'm new, still learning how the armies work"), and no reasonable player is going to refuse to show you.

 

I'd suggest getting your opponent to show you their lists before games too, although I guess until you have more experience of how much things cost you aren't going to be in a position to judge whether or not what they've written is realistic. 

[Axineton]

See this sort of stuff as a fellow noob is pretty unsporting in my opinion. So what if he’s competitive he should be easing you in not putting you straight in the deep end. This sort of stunt would actually put me off the hobby.

 

I’m actually in a different boat where I have no one to play the game with yet so when I do start to actually play I hope no one pulls this stunt with me

[Claws and Effect]

I recommend downloading Battlescribe and spending some time screwing around with all the armies in it. 

 

You can set it up so it shows you all the special rules a given unit has. It's not as detailed as actually reading the Codex, but it's good enough to give you an idea of other armies' capabilities without having to plunk down $30-$50 on each Codex. 

 

That way if you know you'll be playing against, say, Eldar, you can look up their units and have at least some knowledge of what they can and can't do. 

 

And, yeah, that psychic phase stuff your "friend" pulled was a load of horse

 

Just ignore what random other players have to say about your army. Space Marines can absolutely still win games, and they don't need Primaris to do it. Sounds like you had a group of people who aren't good enough players to win games unless the advantages are stacked in their favor. 

 

Incidentally, with a name like Stark I'm very surprised you haven't gravitated toward Iron Hands. 

Edited February 19, 2018 by Claws and Effect

[Ishagu]

Your friend broke the golden rule.

 

Always. ALWAYS. Make sure the person wins on their very first game. Bad sport!

[Warpmiss]

The 2000pts vs 1000pts part killed me. What the actual :cuss?

 

N00b question but I ask seriously: Is that even allowed by the game rules? If it were a 2v1 or something like that I would understand 2 players with a 1000pts army each facing the third player that has 2000pts but not on a 1v1. Your friend was playing with too much of an advantage, as if it wasn't enough that you were a new player...

[Axineton]

Your friend broke the golden rule.

Always. ALWAYS. Make sure the person wins on their very first game. Bad sport!

Can I play you my first game?

[Bryan Blaire]

N00b question but I ask seriously: Is that even allowed by the game rules?

Sure, you and your opponent can agree to whatever game set up you want beforehand. The key word there is "agree" - in this instance it doesn't sound like anything was agreed to at all and a supposed "friend" decided to cheat on all fronts to trounce someone else in the guise of "doing right by them", which it isn't in the slightest. Regardless of anything else, it's incredibly immature to do that to someone.

 

Warpmiss, those kinds of lopsided odds can make for interesting games, and back when I was teaching people to play, I used to have my new opponent roll with 1.5-2 times my points so that they had enough time to learn while I was maneuvering.

[Stark]

I'd suggest getting your opponent to show you their lists before games too, although I guess until you have more experience of how much things cost you aren't going to be in a position to judge whether or not what they've written is realistic. 

 

Yea, in short, it was a learning experience. I won't hesitate to ask questions or to have a look at a codex from now on. I'll be sure to have a copy of my own army list for others - heck, I'd even list any army-specific rules and traits by page number for them. 

 

See this sort of stuff as a fellow noob is pretty unsporting in my opinion. So what if he’s competitive he should be easing you in not putting you straight in the deep end. This sort of stunt would actually put me off the hobby.

 

I’m actually in a different boat where I have no one to play the game with yet so when I do start to actually play I hope no one pulls this stunt with me

 

"Bad form!" and all that, eh?  That which does not kill us makes us stronger. Like I said earlier, I'll take it as a compliment that someone felt threatened by my obvious tactical superiority (Hahahaha!). I should've bluffed better like I knew what I was doing. 

 

I'm still trusting the majority of players I meet won't do nonsense like this. It's best to get the experience out of the way now. Best advice I've had so far is don't be afraid to ask questions, reference the relevant codex - hey, other players should be happy to prove how their rules are effective, right?  

 

I recommend downloading Battlescribe and spending some time screwing around with all the armies in it. 

 

Just ignore what random other players have to say about your army. Space Marines can absolutely still win games, and they don't need Primaris to do it. Sounds like you had a group of people who aren't good enough players to win games unless the advantages are stacked in their favor. 

 

Incidentally, with a name like Stark I'm very surprised you haven't gravitated toward Iron Hands. 

 

Battlescribe, eh? I'll look into it, thanks. 

Yea, every player drinks their own kool-aid. I don't blame them - they're skilled with their armies (hopefully, I'll get there one day soon - without being an   about it).

 

Iron Hands should've been a no-brainer, eh? I want to try all the codex space marine rules and see if I gravitate towards any one. I admit, background wise (with the cyber-mech angle) the Iron Hands are tempting. Their color scheme is nice & basic too, but then I'm committed to them entirely. Tempting to imagine having a massive army in one color scheme. Hmm. Who knows?

 

Your friend broke the golden rule.

Always. ALWAYS. Make sure the person wins on their very first game. Bad sport!

 

I should have played the shop manager first. They'd let me win and probably suggest a shelf of models for me to buy to make my army "even better". 

 

The 2000pts vs 1000pts part killed me. What the actual ?

 

N00b question but I ask seriously: Is that even allowed by the game rules? If it were a 2v1 or something like that I would understand 2 players with a 1000pts army each facing the third player that has 2000pts but not on a 1v1. Your friend was playing with too much of an advantage, as if it wasn't enough that you were a new player...

 

Yea, I believed him when he said there were so many tyranids because it was a "mob army" and the gaunts were less points each. It almost makes me want to build a bug army to kick his... ah, well, let me not go there. Besides, it's better to beat him with my own army. 

 

 

Your friend broke the golden rule.

Always. ALWAYS. Make sure the person wins on their very first game. Bad sport!

Can I play you my first game?

 

 

No, remember to play your shop manager first. As long as they think you'll but more models, you'll have the game in the bag! 

 

Warpmiss, those kinds of lopsided odds can make for interesting games, and back when I was teaching people to play, I used to have my new opponent roll with 1.5-2 times my points so that they had enough time to learn while I was maneuvering.

 

I wouldn't have minded it so much if I knew before hand. I've often said, "I love a challenge". I guess i got what I wished for. Ha!

 

I agree imbalanced games could be fun. Something like a British/Zulu "Battle of Rorke's Drift" garrison against overwhelming odds to see how long a small army would last has its potential for being enjoyable. THAT I could get into. 

 

Again, thank you to all for the positive comments. 

My gaming loyalty was shaken a bit. I don't know as much as I'd like right now, but that's part of learning. If it was easy, everybody would be doing it. 

 

Edited February 19, 2018 by Stark

[Halandaar]

Oh for sure, imbalanced games have the potential to be really fun. Entrenched Guard regiment attempting to hold out against respawning waves of Tyranids for as long as possible? Great scenario. The key is that everybody knows what’s involved beforehand!

 

Anyway, I’m impressed at how upbeat you are about it Stark, I’d have been fuming!

[Stark]

Anyway, I’m impressed at how upbeat you are about it Stark, I’d have been fuming!

I'd like to think my armor is thick enough to handle it.