Centurions: How to make them work?

[Race Bannon]

=][= Are we talking about how to make Centurions work or wish-listing them to work? =][=

[Ishagu]

I genuinely think the way to make them work is for GW to drop their points lol :-P

 

I don't think they can function as they are in any environment with points, even in the most friendly list. A squad of Hellblasters will remove a unit of Centurions in one shooting phase and cost less than half :-/

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

=][= Are we talking about how to make Centurions work or wish-listing them to work? =][=

 

 

Both!

 

The answer to "How to make centurions" work, is to have lively argument/debate that hopefully reaches the ears of GW for a massive point reduction! (but not as massive as Ishagu expects :-D )

 

I think currenlty the only way to "Make them work" which we've already covered, is to go all in; in cover, long range guns (of your preference), Apothecary (to heal/revive) and company ancient to grant them a shot if/when they die, with captain/lt for maximum buffs.  Add in other gunline shooting dudes to take advantage of all those same buffs.

[Ishagu]

It HAS to be massive.

 

I can run 3 Razorbacks with Twin Las Cannons and Hunter Killer missiles for less than 3 Centurions. We can't understate how overpriced they are. Also, we can't fall into the trap of only comparing units within the codex - look at the game as a whole.

[Race Bannon]

For GW to really see the points discussion is to go to their community avenues ;)  Believe me, I fully support a price reduction to this unit (among others) ^_^

 

Yet, I humbly while strongly perceive we should all get back to tactics and strategy to find successful ways to use Centurion units in their current iteration.

[justicarius6]

Then in the current iteration there is really no way to make them work. Everything they do can be done better and cheaper by other units in the codex. They do damage, with the right support they can do lots of damage, but nowhere near as much as similarly pointed units that could be chosen instead.

[9x19 Parabellum]

For GW to really see the points discussion is to go to their community avenues   Believe me, I fully support a price reduction to this unit (among others)

 

Yet, I humbly while strongly perceive we should all get back to tactics and strategy to find successful ways to use Centurion units in their current iteration.

 

I totally agree and understand that, Race, yet in order for such an outcry to be effective, it helps to have solidarity/unanimity amongst the voices.  First we have to convince SM players (whether regulars on B&C or lurkers) that there is in fact, a problem, then, secondly, that it's a problem worthy of errata attention, and thirdly, what the proper remedy is for that problem.

 

I have no illusions about GW ever seeing/reading this forum (or this thread) directly and I probably won't be the one to carry any conversation direclty to GW's ears; mostly I just enjoy talking about (and complaining about) problems and errors. But if a solution does take form, here, and solidarity reached, perhaps someone else will carry that message to GW.  Ideas cross polinate between here, Dakka, BoLS, Frontline, 3++, Miniwargaming, etc....and in some instances there are people working at GW that frequent (or are part of) those communities.  Thus, there's a reasonable chance that the noise we make here could eventually be heard by someone in a position to do something about it.

 

Like others, I can't pretend there's any reasonably effective usage to be had about so grossly a mispriced unit as Centurions.  If you want to use them, of course have at it! No one's going to arrive at your house and stop your fun!  I think we'd be doing a disservice to the casual player and/or veteran that there's actually a niche for Centurions.  That's not me crying; I love all my models, and my Centurions will occassionaly see playtime despite being pretty bad right now!

[d36williams]

Maybe using Centurion Devastators with an Apothecary and Vexilla Defensor for the 5+ invuln is worth exploreing. Centurian Devastators do have a great amount of shooting for infantry models, they might make using a building like an Imperial Bunker worthwhile. That's quite expensive though, paying for the offense (Cent Devs) and defense (Apothecary, building or Vexilla Defensor)

[9x19 Parabellum]

Maybe using Centurion Devastators with an Apothecary and Vexilla Defensor for the 5+ invuln is worth exploreing. Centurian Devastators do have a great amount of shooting for infantry models, they might make using a building like an Imperial Bunker worthwhile. That's quite expensive though, paying for the offense (Cent Devs) and defense (Apothecary, building or Vexilla Defensor)

 

Cents in cover have a 1+ save.  Even a melta "only" reduces that to 5+, which is no better than a "gifted" invuln.  Very, VERY few guns in the game have -5 (or more) to AP.

[Ishagu]

Maybe using Centurion Devastators with an Apothecary and Vexilla Defensor for the 5+ invuln is worth exploreing. Centurian Devastators do have a great amount of shooting for infantry models, they might make using a building like an Imperial Bunker worthwhile. That's quite expensive though, paying for the offense (Cent Devs) and defense (Apothecary, building or Vexilla Defensor)

If I want to Castle up and shoot Las cannons from the corner, I can do so with Tanks that are far more durable and reliable than any t5, 3 wound model.

 

Centurions were best as a centre table control unit, 12-24" range. They'd create a dangerous kill zone, so to speak.

 

Now? Slow, overpriced, no way to move them around unless you invest in further expensive vehicles. They lost access to Drop Pods as well, remember?

 

 

Edit: Typo

Edited March 22, 2018 by Ishagu

[Aothaine]

Maybe using Centurion Devastators with an Apothecary and Vexilla Defensor for the 5+ invuln is worth exploreing. Centurian Devastators do have a great amount of shooting for infantry models, they might make using a building like an Imperial Bunker worthwhile. That's quite expensive though, paying for the offense (Cent Devs) and defense (Apothecary, building or Vexilla Defensor)

 

I think you're onto something here. Take three units of three load them up in a Bastion that is deployed forward. All hits at them target the bastion and not them first. They are protected and can rain fire down on the enemy and jump the Bastion when it gets low. 

 

I still think that people are going to be amazed the first time someone brings a building to an ITC game. Especially if you deploy it in a way that it screws with firing lanes or sets the enemy up into a trap. I'll check into this later when I get home.

[Rik Lightstar]

Centurion Devastors are 10 points MORE than the equivalent Dreadnought, if you're going to support 3 of them with a Captain then that's a Vanguard detachment too.

 

Rik

[9x19 Parabellum]

Centurion Devastors are 10 points MORE than the equivalent Dreadnought, if you're going to support 3 of them with a Captain then that's a Vanguard detachment too.

 

Rik

 

Never even dawned on me to compare them to Dreadnoughts.  Twin-las and missile launchers is almost the same loadout as the DevCent, except with better movement, more toughness, more strength, more wounds, still gets chapter tactic and has the ability to leverage their close combat statline, and you can take them one at a time, so no need to commit to ~400 pts.

 

Can't really take advantage of cover, though, no transporting, no apothecary/company ancient synergy, no Decimator Protocols or Omniscope. 

[Rik Lightstar]

 

Centurion Devastors are 10 points MORE than the equivalent Dreadnought, if you're going to support 3 of them with a Captain then that's a Vanguard detachment too.

 

Rik

 

Never even dawned on me to compare them to Dreadnoughts.  Twin-las and missile launchers is almost the same loadout as the DevCent, except with better movement, more toughness, more strength, more wounds, still gets chapter tactic and has the ability to leverage their close combat statline, and you can take them one at a time, so no need to commit to ~400 pts.

 

Can't really take advantage of cover, though, no transporting, no apothecary/company ancient synergy, no Decimator Protocols or Omniscope. 

 

 

I'd say the Apothecary/Ancient point is more than countered by a Techmarine as they also have access to reasonable weapon loadouts too.

 

And Decimator Protocols and Omniscope maybe not but there's "Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients" and "Get a save against mortal wounds" Stratagems. You CAN transport them, just only with a Stormraven and not very economically.

 

For an additional 10 points over a Centurion you get a Venerable Dreadnought and they hit on 2+ with a save against any wounds.

 

Or Lascannon Predators are 190 points, the options with comparable firepower are quite substantially better than Devastator Centurions, which I find heart-breaking as I actually rather like the models.

 

Rik

[d36williams]

Most buildings only allow 1 unit + a random number of characters, so for using a building I think one unit of six Dev Cents is the best strategy. A fair number of buildings only allow five fireports as well

Edited March 23, 2018 by d36williams

[Logiter]

Could always just use a skyshield? Plop as many units on top as can fit for a 5++?

[Aothaine]

Most buildings only allow 1 unit + a random number of characters, so for using a building I think one unit of six Dev Cents is the best strategy. A fair number of buildings only allow five fireports as well

 

Use an Imperial Bastion. It has 10 firing points and can hold all the Centurions and any number of characters.

 

1 Captain

3 squads of 3 Devastator Centurions

 

That gives you a box that can be deployed at the very front of your deployment zone with 18 lascannons and 9 hurricane bolters. This is a CRAZY fire base. It is quite powerful too. Then you load out the rest of your army with fast attack bike units or possibly intercessors for objective taking. It is a lot of points but it is a pretty solid firebase. Might need to create more threats across the board though so the Bastion is not taken out on the first turn. It does have 20 wounds on a toughness 9 platform though. So it won't be easy to wreck.

 

Edit: It also reduces your drops which is awesome! I'll write up a list tonight and post it here.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Aothaine

[d36williams]

Unfortunately in the Imperial Bastion Transport rule it says "This model can transport any number of INFANTRY CHARACTERS and one other INFANTRY unit, up to a maximum of 20 models." So I think you're stuck with the one Infantry unit. Also, captains and lieutenants won't be able to buff that unit (I think... I don't know what those rule interactions are). For that reason  I suspect the 5 man Dev Cent list would be better in an Imperial Bunker

 

 

That is different from Vehicles which have no restrictions on the number of non-character units.

[Aothaine]

Unfortunately in the Imperial Bastion Transport rule it says "This model can transport any number of INFANTRY CHARACTERS and one other INFANTRY unit, up to a maximum of 20 models." So I think you're stuck with the one Infantry unit. Also, captains and lieutenants won't be able to buff that unit (I think... I don't know what those rule interactions are). For that reason  I suspect the 5 man Dev Cent list would be better in an Imperial Bunker

 

 

That is different from Vehicles which have no restrictions on the number of non-character units.

 

Ahhh good catch! You could have a 6 man squad and the captain and lieutenant. The auras should still work on the unit inside right? That would be really really strange if they didn't. I also know know if units in the bastion count as claiming objectives if they are placed near the bastion. I tried asking in the rules forums a few months ago and got zero responses.

 

Edit: But even six devastator cents are pretty scary. 

 

This could open up the option for a Fortification Network detachment. Most space marines are mid-board ranged specialists and if you can field your entire force, or close to it, in these fortifications near the mid board you are creating a TON of pressure on your opponent. Sure it is expensive. But I wonder if the resiliency makes up for the lack of extra models. Also, does anyone know if you can shoot units in Fortifications or do you have to shoot the fortifications first? This has the potential to be very awesome with a force like Salamanders or even Imperial Fists. Getting excited here. Hopefully I'm not jumping the gun or missing anymore important rules.

 

But you could potentially have two units of six Centurions on two bastions are in range of the void shield generator giveing the bastions a 4+ invlun right? Then you can set up the rest of your forces around the bastions. Hmmm... My mind is racing right now. Need to check some rules when I get off work tonight.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Aothaine

[Cruor Vault]

 

Ahhh good catch! You could have a 6 man squad and the captain and lieutenant. The auras should still work on the unit inside right? That would be really really strange if they didn't. I also know know if units in the bastion count as claiming objectives if they are placed near the bastion. I tried asking in the rules forums a few months ago and got zero responses.

 

Aura's do not function when a unit is not on the table.  Nor would the unit benefit if the Captain and LT were to be outside hiding behind the Bastion as the Centurions inside don't technically count as "being on the table".

[Aothaine]

 

 

Ahhh good catch! You could have a 6 man squad and the captain and lieutenant. The auras should still work on the unit inside right? That would be really really strange if they didn't. I also know know if units in the bastion count as claiming objectives if they are placed near the bastion. I tried asking in the rules forums a few months ago and got zero responses.

 

Aura's do not function when a unit is not on the table.  Nor would the unit benefit if the Captain and LT were to be outside hiding behind the Bastion as the Centurions inside don't technically count as "being on the table".

 

 

Fair enough. You just go with Imperial Fists or Salamanders then. 3+ is still really good and the protection a bastion provides to 6 centurions is a pretty sweet option imho.